Talk:2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings

This article was nominated for deletion on 9 December 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Perry Swanson (January 21, 2008). "Springs on Wikipedia-Info at Your Fingertips, a Lot of It Probably True". The Gazette (Colorado Springs).

More sources, please

Can someone find some more sources and info please/ Thanks--B.L.A.Z.E (talk) 12:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

merge

If these are related (and it is hard to believe they are not, 70 miles apart on the same day, coincidences rarely happen), I would propose the merger of Arvada missionary shooting and New Life Church shooting into a comprehensive article. Chris (talk) 04:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe so as well. I personally dont see a connection as of yet (they were around the same area, but nothing is really conclusive as to relations), but it is very possible. IronCrow (talk) 05:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is clearly the same shooter now. They should be merged, and the title should be changed accordingly. 146.203.126.65 (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There has been no evidence currently that they were related in any way. 75.70.39.2 (talk) 13:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence? How can you say that? Aside from the temporal and physical proximity that seems more than a coincidence, media are reporting that the suspect descriptions were similar, and that the missionaries have an office in the same church building that was targeted in the second attack, and that police are indeed looking into a connection. I know it's not strong evidence so far, but still it is slight evidence... 70.105.52.165 (talk) 14:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also per this Reuters source, the police do have reason to think there is a connection, but can't release the reasons why at this time. 70.105.52.165 (talk) 14:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't it be better to wait for some conclusive evidence? I would agree to merge them if they're connected but what's there to merge at the moment? However, if someone does start merging please list a link Hawk-McKain (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's no rush, but given the move to delete this article, it would be better to have a larger better article if there is a connection, it would make the article more bulletproof. Chris (talk) 20:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Welp, it seems there is indeed a connection but being pretty new I would rather let someone else start the merging process. Post Article covering the event Hawk-McKain (talk) 22:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Police are now saying that the shootings were related, and both were committed by a man who "Hated Christians". We should merge the two articles into one. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57[reply]

It is now clear that the two shootings were committed by the same person. However, I suggest waiting another 24 hours or so to perform a merge so that there is enough information to work with. Kevinp2 (talk) 00:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They found that Matthew was the shooter at both the Youth with a Mission and New Life. Also they happned at the same time, that fact alone should put both together. You don't have shootings like this happning on the same day, just a few hours apart.

Sorry if I am so jumpy on the topic, I go to a church not to far from New Life (at least within Colorado Springs), and I know people there.--User: War bloodline 01:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I think it is now known by the police that the two events are related. – Agendum (talk) 09:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support Merge. This is clearly one shooting/crime spree. Fortunately it ended before more were killed due to the armed civilian with the firearm. N2e (talk) 04:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge. The cops were already at Murray's house investigating the first incident before the second one occurred. How about Arvada missionary and New Life Church shootings. Yaf (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with merging the articles. This was actually one event, perpetrated by the same individual. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57[reply]

I created these two articles, and because the two shootings seemed to be committed by the same gunman, should be merged.--B.L.A.Z.E (talk) 23:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend continuing this discussion at Talk:New Life Church shooting#merge to keep the discussions together. Sbowers3 (talk) 11:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What's with Americans' inability to use vowel syntax correctly? "An" precedes a word beginning with a vowel, not "a". 87.102.21.160 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But "A" is a vowel... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Vowel_letters Anyways, I think it was merged early, yet, since Wikipedia goes by consensus... Anyways, they are related according to police now... Regardless, the article still needs work. IronCrow (talk) 05:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CNN "RUN IN" COMMENT

It's been clearly established from numerous Mainstream Sources and Law Enforcement Officials that Murray had a vendetta against Christians, and against Y-WAM in particular. He didn't just have a "run in" with Y-WAM he was expelled from the program 3 years ago and had been sending hate mail to them. No attempts to white wash the article should be tolerated. Murray clearly had a vendetta that he was trying to solve with violence. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57[reply]

Sorry for the mixup, I hadn't read your edit very carefully and for some reason thought it said something else when I reverted... I agree that your source is much more informative atm. 70.105.52.165 (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I wasn't aiming this portion at you, but rather at CNN. CNN's coverage isn't nearly as detailed as the coverage from the Rocky Mountain News. I get the impression that CNN is whitewashing a bit. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57[reply]

naming after merge

Consensus here, at the other article, and AfD is merge. What should the name be? NTK (talk) 05:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so then what to call the new article? Wikipedia format is date first, as in

[[2007 Balad aircraft crash]]
[[2007 Burmese anti-government protests]]
[[2007 Pakistani state of emergency]]

We could say [[2007 Colorado church shootings]], only one is a missionary center which is different. We could say [[2007 Colorado shooting spree]], but that sounds sensationalist. We can't name it [[Matthew J. Murray]], it's not descriptive enough and in the long run he won't be the notable angle. Any thoughts? Chris (talk) 15:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Matthew J. Murray would be the best and no redirected here. ''[[User:Kitia|Kitia]]'' (talk) 21:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend continuing this discussion at Talk:New Life Church shooting#naming after merge to keep the discussions together. Sbowers3 (talk) 11:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is [[2007 Colorado Christian (center) shootings]] too long/technical? How about [[2007 Colorado Murray shootings]]? That seems to fit ok, though like you said, he won't stay the notable angle. Hawk-McKain (talk) 19:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about [[2007 Colorado Christian shooting spree]]? Sadly, I think we're going to have more sprees before the end of the year, and I really don't want us using the killer's names more than absolutely -- and minimally -- necessary. One article about the spree, and perhaps a brief one about Jeanne Assam, or a link from her name to the article. htom (talk) 22:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Spree" is way, way too sensationalistic; use of "Christian" is not specific enough. Here's a few more suggestions: 2007 Colorado church/mission shootings, 2007 Colorado church/missionary shootings, 2007 Colorado church/training center shootings, or to use the specific organization names instead, 2007 Colorado YWAM/New Life shootings. Mike Doughney (talk) 23:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I vote Yes to 2007 Colorado YWAM/New Life shootings It sounds descriptive enough to me Hawk-McKain (talk) 04:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Except that the "/" will put an article named 'New Life shootings' as a sub-page of '2007 Colorado YWAM'. OPINION: The gymnastic convolutions necessary to try to merge these articles lends credence to the notion of keeping them separate. Anchoress (talk) 04:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, then, how 'bout 2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings. Seems to cover the whole thing. Mike Doughney (talk) 04:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think 2007 Colorado church/missionary shootings covers it the best. N2e (talk) 04:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2007 Colorado church shootings - users are more likely to type that phrase than other phrases. Also it avoids the "/" problem. Sbowers3 (talk) 11:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A few more suggestions: December 2007 Colorado shootings unless there are other notable shootings in Colorado in December. Or 2007 Colorado anti-Christian shootings, or 2007 shootings at Arvada and Colorado Springs. Donnie Love (talk) 12:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that [[2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings]] is the best choice. It will come up in the listings whether one searchs for YWAM or New Life shootings and covers the scope of it. Calling it "Christian shootings" may be a bit misleading since it wasn't all Christians he was shooting, but ones related to specific sites. Finally, regarding the comment about the "gymnastic convolutions" in combining articles, what's involved in merging is irrelevant. It was one shooting spree, in the same way the Va. Tech shootings was one spree. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Wildhartlivie's suggestion, and withdraw my earlier suggestion. [[2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings]] is accurate, searchable, not too long, and has no undesirable '/' (slash) characters. N2e (talk) 19:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings has my vote, so hopefully someone will be able to get a seed article going that we can take further. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawk-McKain (talk • contribs) 23:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with 2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings – as short as is possible and to the point – Agendum (talk) 00:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Automatic" handgun

I find it highly unlikely that this person had an automatic (that is, fully automatic) or machine pistol. I suggest that the word automatic, under Weapon, be changed to autoloading or semi-automatic, or dropped completely, OR replaced with a specific make and model of handgun when that information is available. Automatic is technically correct, but is not conventionally used to describe autoloading pistols as it carries more of a connotation associated with machine guns.

I also heard the host on CNN continually refer to the Colorado Springs shooter as wearing an "automatic assault rifle", which is also suspect and underscores the same concerns for accuracy. The wiki article for that attack simply says "rifle", as that is all that can reasonably be assumed at this point.74.7.55.66 (talk) 15:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The weapon in question that CNN was referring to was an AK-47, which was one of the shooter's firearms. I have not seen reliable information as to the exact make and as to whether it was semi- or fully-automatic, but it certainly qualifies as an "assault rifle" whether you like the term or not, Kalashnikovs are the representative of that class. NTK (talk) 05:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think automatic is a proper term for the handgun, being that that is what the typical name is for autoloading non-revolver style pistols. I don't anyone is getting confused as to whether it was a machine pistol or not. As far as the AK-47, the word "rifle" is appropriate, lest we want to endlessly debate what type of rifle it is. However, the AK-47 has more characteristics of a "battle rifle" than is does of that of an "assault rifle." Appending the word "assault" is usually just an abused media catch-all to describe just about any type of rifle that does not operate on bolt action. Beigerabbit (talk) 00:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, in her book, God, the Gunman & Me ([1]), Jeanne Assam perpetuates typical distortions by claiming that the shooter used a "high-powered rifle"--something an AK-47 most definitely is not. --71.203.125.108 (talk) 17:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

alt.suicide.holiday

He posted on ash. [2] [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.123.221.158 (talk) 22:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added:

"In another of his very last posts, made that morning to a Usenet newsgroup [4], he identified himself as being a member of a local branch of the Ordo Templi Orientis, an occult group who believe male homosexual behaviour is a form of black magic. Murray had attended their events for one or two years." 70.105.52.165 (talk) 18:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ordo Templi Orientis does not believe that "male homosexual behaviour is a form of black magic." No citation provided to substantiate this claim. Vchappell (talk) 21:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they do. Try this for one: :http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/sunrise/xi.htm

70.105.52.165 (talk) 22:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This source does not represent OTO and is not "in their own words". Sex magick can invovle any form of sexuality, solitary, heterosexual, or homosexual. Vchappell (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly... So what you reverted was quite correct, and I'm reverting it back again. They most definitely do teach that male homosexuality is a form of "sex magick". You are now at 3RR. 70.105.52.165 (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, how about a reference to Wiki's own article on Sex Magic for those interested in the subject? Preserves your original point. Also, you revereted out documented references to news sources quoting relevant information. Vchappell (talk) 22:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hate crime

If we're going to call this a "hate crime", we need sources to substantiate that officials have likewise called the shootings as such. Otherwise, the term "hate crime" implies a particular POV in opposition not only to the shootings themselves, but to those who have complaints (whether legitimate or not, doesn't matter) against the affected churches, denominations, or other religious organizations. -- JeffBillman (talk) 17:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reference for the statement in question is broken. I've replaced it with a different url to what I am pretty sure is the very same Associated Press article. That reference uses the phrase "hate mail" but not the phrase "hate crime" and does not speculate about the motive. We should stick to what the source says, so I am not only removing the phrase "hate crime" but removing any speculation as to the motive. In the absence of a reliable source, speculating about the motive would be WP:Original research. Sbowers3 (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

POV check

This article may tend toward a POV; to wit, one that sees this tragic event as symptomatic of a larger persecution against American Christians. Thus, I'm including the POV-check template at the top of this article. Let's try to get this article to a more neutral point of view. Thank you. -- JeffBillman (talk) 21:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That "volunteer security guard"

While I do not have the source on hand at the moment, there was a newspaper article I read which contacted the "volunteer security guard" and he asserted that he was nothing more than a citizen with a concealed carry permit. The paper went on to describe the inaccuracy and bias of media reports on any event which might put gun ownership in a positive light. Has anyone here heard anything else about this which would corroborate it? I can't find the site for the damn paper. Ours18 (talk) 07:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had thought that the article said that but now I'll have to go back and reread it. My recollection is that the "security guard" was a woman, not a man, and that she was a parishioner who after hearing or reading some other news (a shooting elsewhere?) had volunteered to stay through both services instead of the one that she usually attended. And yes, she was an ordinary citizen with concealed carry; her occupation was not security guard. I had thought that most of the article's references presented this information. Sbowers3 (talk) 11:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]