Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2022

Change "Serbian" or "American" to "Croatian" 2A05:4F44:C10:3D00:803D:8D49:5AF4:3ACB (talk) 13:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see frequent discussions in the past. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Thread moved here from Talk:Nikola Tesla per Talk page banner and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus.--Chetvorno^TALK 19:06, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Really unsure why this is such a problem.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Tesla is Croatian-American. He was not born in Serbia, or anything that would be considered Serbia. He did not speak Serbian, his official documents state he is from Croatia. He has identified hiimself as Croatian-American.

It's ridiculous that this is an ongoing issue. 151.111.138.53 (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I can explain. Wiki page lists Tesla as "Serbian-American" because the most secondary sources put emphasis on Tesla's ethnicity. Wikipedia is just summarizing secondary sources. This in no way negates that Tesla is also "Croatian-American" when you put emphasis on nationality/place of birth. You can see it on Einstein's Wiki page where the emphasis wasn't put on his ethnicity. He's listed as "German-born". The problem isn't with one or the other qualification, but with some people here on talk page, which use one qualification to negate the other. I don't think you should be bothered by this summary that was done on Wikipedia. Tesla's Croatian origins are still well known. You know...some people here even went so far to write that Tesla had "no connections to Croatia" or to claim that Tesla didn't know where he was born when he stated that he was "born in Croatia". When someone says that Tesla was "Serbian-American" , thus not "Croatian-American" is just trying to use ethnicity-based qualification for their agenda. Both are correct and one can't negate the other. Of course that in Serbian people would put more emphasis of ethnicity, and in Croatia to Tesla's place of birth/homeland. I personally don't see why both qualifications wouldn't be stated on the wiki page, as both are supported by sources. The best example is wiki for Rade Šerbedžija. He's listed as Croatian and Serbian actor. Bilseric (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

In categorization, ethnicity is mentioned first and then nationality. Serbian-American, in which Serbian would be his ethnicity/origin and American being his nationality/place of residency for the majority of Tesla's life. Croatian was not his ethnicity, or nationality as you mentioned it to be, as Croatian was part of Austria-Hungary at that time. Mentioning Austria-Hungary as his nationality could be fitting, but when an individual has more than one nationality it is important to look at other factors. For this case, Tesla lived in the US for the majority of his life and was his place of death. It was also the place of origin to all his inventions. I think it's quite logical why "American" is mentioned as his nationality, hence also why most sources mention him as Serbian-American. --Azor (talk). 20:16, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Citizenship in 19th century Austrian Empire was complex topic even back in those days. The legislation and the practice have changed multiple times during the 2nd part of the 19th century. There are numerous cases of disputes with the institutions that individuals had to determine their citizenship . What worked in the practice is affiliation to the local municipality. After 1880 a new law put in order the presumption of "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship of all born in the lands of "hungarian crown". There are ambiguities on how that citizenship was called, but the affiliation certainly went towards "Croatia-Slavonia", as the local governemt was issuing documents such as "domovnica" or "certificate of nationality" and passport. It can be seen on Tesla's passport that it was issued by the "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". For Tesla at least, it can be seen who had issued his passport and where his affiliation went. As I said Wikipedia summerizes sources and indeed there are sources naming Tesla as Croatian scientist. This is factually correct and in no opposition to name him as American, or Serbian-American or even Croatian-American as some here on Wikipedia are trying to represent. Why one of those classifications was chosen of Wikipedia , I explained earlier. I think that most literature that are listing Tesla as "Croatian" scientist are doing so because Nikola Tesla was born in the Croatian part of the Austrian Empire, which was pretty diverse, so they "summerize". Well, I say Croatia because it's a direct quote from Tesla. Of course we wasn't born in the "Republic of Croatia" which is the full name today. However, Croatian constitution today is stating that today's Croatia derives from the former Kingdom of Dalmatia-Croatia-Slavonia. It's one and the same entity, whether independent or not is irrelevant. The naming had changed throught years. The most common name is just Croatia. That's way Tesla had himself said "I was born in Croatia" , although at that time Croatia was a part of Yugoslavia. Bilseric (talk) 19:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

This matter has been an ongoing topic for years and arguments about Croatia's political independence in details does not make any difference. Croatia was never an independent nation during his lifetime and can therefore not be classified as his nationality. Nationality is chosen by the individual's legal citizenship. He held Austro-Hungarian and American citizenship, respectively. As for Tesla's wording, he never explicitly said "I was born in Croatia", but he did mention him being "equally proud of his Serb origin and Croat homeland" in a quote during the time of Yugoslavia. However, I don't see how that is him stating his opinion on the matter. Him choosing to move to the US at a young age, and live there until his death, seems rather convincing on which country he considered his nationality. --Azor (talk). 19:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

The citizenship in Austian Empire, and later in Austro-Hungary was set by a number of legislature acts from 1848 until 1880. Austro-Hungary was an union of two sovereign states, there was no Austro-Hungarian citizenship. Both Austrian and Hungarian citizenships had existed. This was defined by the Austrian-Hungarian settlement. In the similar way Croatian-Hungarian settlement defined political status of Croatia (Croatia-Slavonia) within the land of Hungarian crown. From that point on, legislature was common "Hungarian-Croatian", executive branches were separated. This is why Tesla's passport was issued by the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia. Although the legislature was common, "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship wasn't solely determinative. The distinction was put on the 2 political entities. This is directly determined by the Croatian-Hungarian settlement which had defined citizens of Croatia-Slavonia as a separate political nation. Nikola Tesla being one of the most notable individuals of that nation. For instance the naming used in the legislature act from 1871 was "Croatian-Slavonian citizenship".

Tesla had indeed said that he was born in Croatia in his tribute to king Alexander. Tesla's letter was published in New York Times and you can easily see it in their archive. The direct quote is I was born in Croatia. He wrote the letter himself on English and sent it to New York Times. You may argue that he didn't know where he was born, or that he wasn't telling the truth, however historical facts, I just mentioned, would disprove you. There are a number of legislature acts defining the political status of Croatia-Slavonia at that time.

There's no doubt that Tesla had high regards on to his American citizenship. I don't think anyone here is disputing that. Well, actually it's funny what is actually being disputed here, and by whom. I'm not familiar with any relevant party disputing Tesla's ethnicity. I would understand that Serbs would have a problem with it as they claim that Tesla was a Serb (and indeed he was), however what is funny here, Tesla's nationality and the place of birth can only be in dispute between states that were formerly a part of the Austro-Hungary. I'm not seeing Austria or Hungary, claiming Tesla "belongs" to them. What difference it makes for the Serbian side when Tesla can't be "Serbian" by nationality and he can't be born in Serbia. What motivation do Serbian side has to have him "belong" to either of the other sides...namely Austrian, Hungarian or any other , rather than Croatian, apart from animosity towards Croatia? Even the media often portraits this as a dispute between "Croatia and Serbia". This is not the case at all, nothing is in dispute between Croatia and Serbia. Ethnicity is not in dispute at all. On the other hand Serbia has nothing to do with Tesla's nationality or the place of birth, and those aren't disputed by Austria or Hungary and Croatia. And I'm quite literal here when saying "Serbia", because it does happen that Serbian officials are protesting when Tesla is portrayed as a Croatian scientist. Most lately, when Tesla was portrayed on Croatian euro coins. Bilseric (talk) 21:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

This is, yet again, details from your behalf. We could go on and on and discuss about the degree of autonomy the regions within the Empire developed later in his life, as if that is gonna make any relevant difference. Even then, his nationality wouldn't be described as "Croatian" but rather "Croatia-Slavonian". In terms of nationality - Serbia has no relevancy, but American is, without a doubt, the best suited categorization. As for the the general Serb view on the categorization of Tesla, I fully understand the upset. What motivation does Croats have to claim Tesla? He was born in lands that is today Croatia yes, but throughout history you did not seem that motivated to claim the other Serbs living in todays Croatia. A Serb is "Croatian" when he becomes famous, but an inferior individual who should be sent to concentration camps when he is the average citizen. Croat editors has also, throughout many years, argued against his Serb ethnicity on Wikipedia as well. The current categorization of his ethnicity and nationality (Serbian-American) is most likely never gonna change, despite any detail-arguing from the Croat editors. That's all. --Azor (talk). 11:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I was actually using this secondary source [1]. It lists many legislature acts, as primary sources. The wiki page doesn't need to change. It's perfectly correct. What I'm just pointing out, is that "Croatian scientist", is as well perfectly correct and equal. Some people think that putting "Serbian-American" on Wiki page somehow negates "Croatian-American". I'm well familiar with all the "reasons" from Serbian side why Tesla isn't Croatian, including the one you just repeated, but I ask again, what difference does it make for Serbs to "have him either way", when his nationality isn't Serbian? If he himself said that he was born in Croatia. If you can see that his passport was issued by the "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". If his highschool degree says his mother language is "Croatian". It's just silly that some people come to the discussion here on wikipedia with the claims that "Tesla had nothing to do with Croatia", and somehow they don't neglect to mention that they are not from "this area" , like somehow it makes their opinion more credible than Tesla's statement that he was born in Croatia. It's even more ridiculous when seeing that Serbia as a country is protesting this historical facts. Bilseric (talk) 17:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I am noticing how you are cherry picking sources. You talk about his educational papers, more explicitly his "Croatian mother tongue" from his primary education paper. Yet, you don't even dare to mention his educational papers from his time in university of Graz, which explicitly mentions his nationality to be Serbian. Let me also remind you that these university papers were issued during the time of Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia.

I can also see that you have spent a ridiculous amount of time continuously arguing in the discussion regarding the categorization of Tesla. In 2017, you were arguing about the same alleged quote from Tesla about where he was born, just the same way you are doing now. So no, I don't believe you a second when you say "the article is perfectly correct and I'm just pointing out". For God's sake, drop the stick. --Azor (talk). 19:57, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I've just posted a lengthy source that deals explicitly with the question of nationality in Croatia and Slavonia from 1849-1880. This is the secondary source and it mentions not a single word about Serbian nationality. Bilseric (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

His academic paper is a primary source and does indeed show Serbe Nationalität (i.e. Serbian nationality). --Azor (talk). 21:33, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

What is certain here is that he wasn't Serbian by nationality. This question is not even in dispute. What's in dispute, is whether he was Austrain, Hungarian or Croatian by nationality, since the question of nationality wasn't fully defined until 1880. The source I posted, although in Croatian, is the best one yet, that was posted here on the topic of nationality in Austro-Hungary in the 19th century. I can't say exactly why the mentioned document says "Serbian" under nationality, but there are no doubts that Serbian nationality wasn't defined in the legislature acts in Austro-Hungary. It would be good to find secondary source that would explain this document. Without that, there's not much we can do with it on Wikipedia. I'm just speculating here (not that it matters for Wiki discussion) , but one of the possible explanations would be that , being the 19th century, and nationality not being fully defined as we understand it today, people often were naming their ethnicity as nationality. For certain, people living in Croatian part of the Empire weren't considering themselves to be Austrians, although the act from 1849 was defining only Austrian citizenship for all citizens of Austrain Empire. This will soon change when reality reaches the legislature ,but even before that, when the question of citizenship wasn't defined as such at all in the legislature, people of Austrain Empire weren't considering themselves as one nation. This will soon be evident through Austro-Hungrian settlement and Croatian-Hungarian settlement, which had defined separate political nations and is also visible from the source I posted, which is widely speaking of, sometimes confusing way, of determining someone's nationality in Austro-Hungary from 1849-1880. I think this is the most plausible explanation. To repeat, what is evident from the source , the question of nationality was in the process of being defined in the 19th century, thus it's hard to go by legislature which was changing during that period. What is certain is this quote from the source, "After 1880 a new law put in order the presumption of "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship for all born in the lands of "hungarian crown"". Also, what is notable from the source is that this, legislature act wasn't aligned with reality on the ground , so much so that subsequent legislature acts are separating Croatians from Hungarians. Some acts are using "Croatian-Slavonian" terminology. Some are using "sons of the homeland", because Croatians couldn't be elected to the Hungarian Parliament for example. Tesla couldn't have been elected to the Hungarian Parliament for instance. He could have only be elected to the Croatian Parliament. Not to prolong...I gave you my speculations on your primary source, I don't know whether you would like it or not, but there's certainly much to digest from the source I posted, but not the fact that Serbian citizenship was non-existent in the 19th century Austro-Hungary. And again, what I tried to summerize, although it's a lengthy post, is that "Croatian scientist" is equally correct as "Serbian scientist" or "American scientist". There's no point to be "unsatisfied" because Wiki page chose one over the other, Wikipedia is just summarizing sources. Bilseric (talk) 12:47, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

As per MOS:NATIONALITY If a subject migrate from from a country to another country and became the citizen of the that country where he was made notable of his activities - we would put their citizenship of the country they migrated to. So Tesla is an American in the lead section. Cassiopeia talk 22:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

MOS:NATIONALITY has caveats: "unless relevant to the subject's notability" Tesla inventor history includes a transition form Europe to America, and "editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject" most reliable sources refer to him as "Serbian-American". Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. The only problem with this article is that some people trying to negate that Tesla being a Croatian Scientist is equally correct. Wikipedia choosing one formulation for the article doesn't in any way negate other formulations that are equally correct. Wikipedia just summarizes sources , and indeed the sources are mentioning Tesla's ethnicity. Bilseric (talk) 13:27, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

No they don't. Most refer to him as "American". It should be in the lead page just American per MOS:NATIONALITY, and make it more neutral. Andrew012p (talk) 18:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

It would be, but it seems to me that some editors here emphasise Tesla's ethnicity to be more than it is. Bilseric (talk) 20:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 5 December 2023

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla

 – Vanjagenije (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Change Nikola Teslas nationality to Croatian-Serbian-American. Nikola Tesla repeatedly stated his love for his, quote “hrvatskoj domovini i srpskom rodu", which in translation means “Croatian homeland and Serbian roots”

https://faktograf.hr/2022/02/17/je-li-nikola-tesla-bio-srbin-ili-hrvat/ 85.226.244.61 (talk) 23:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see frequent discussions in the past. Vanjagenije (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2024

It should be stated that Tesla was Croatian-Serbian and American.

Tesla was born and raised in Present day Croatia and had Croatian citizenship in the Kingdom of Croatia within the Austrian Empire. All of Tesla's documents and educational certificates were written in Croatian and notarized by the Kingdom of Croatia. Tesla visited Serbia for 1 whole day his entire life.

Tesla stated he was equally proud of his Croatian homeland and his Serbian ethnicity thus making him Croatian by nationality and Serbian by ethnicity. 2607:FEA8:4EA1:3A00:5E2D:CF19:F1EB:8ACF (talk) 02:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: This has been discussed extensively in the past; see the various discussions in this page's archives. SkyWarrior 02:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Ridiculous. So someone who was born, raised, educated in Croatia and in Croatian language and says he was proud of his Croatian homeland doesnt get to be labelled Croatian. So being Serbian simply by being of Orthodox faith and visiting Serbia for 1 day. What kind of nonsense is this. Direct me please to the archive so I can read the misinformation. 2607:FEA8:4EA1:3A00:5E2D:CF19:F1EB:8ACF (talk) 02:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

The 15 archives are listed at the top of the page. The current wording was established by an RfC 8 June 2014 and has stood against many efforts to change it, and been confirmed by RfC 12 December 2018 and further supported in the discussion of RfC 11 July 2020. --Chetvorno^TALK 17:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno hmm, now that you mention the RFCs, in the 2014 one we had a pretty clear consensus to have a mention of Croatia or the Military Frontier for the birthplace, but this was since removed from the infobox, and the image caption has a weird phrasing in the caption that implies the village is only now in Croatia which isn't quite right. I think there's an influx of complaints not just because these readers have an axe to grind, but because we've also had subtle changes made that trigger them. --Joy (talk) 12:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

BTW, the 2014 RFC is littered with tendentious text from an editor who has long since gotten indefinitely blocked for abuse. I'm not sure if there's a good way to address that, as WP:DENY doesn't mention talk pages... --Joy (talk) 12:06, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

If I'm looking at the correct RfC, I'm seeing that the consensus is "Smiljan, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)", the advice is against mentioning Military Frontier in the lead. Yes, it seems that , at present, the infobox is missing (preset day Croatia) as it is stated in the text. Bilseric (talk) 20:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the confirmation, amended now. --Joy (talk) 22:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Provide truthful info

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nikola Tesla is croatian, and he does not have anything to do with Serbia or the USA as ethnicity. He was born in Smiljan, a Croatian town. He studied in Graz and Karlovac, therefore not having connections with Serbia or the USA. Or say that he is croatian-serbian if you dont want to give up misinformation but he is not in any way american. Reepdrake (talk) 12:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is aggregating the secondary sources, and they do indeed mention that Tesla was Serbian by ethnicity. This in no way should contradict that he was also Croatian by "nationality". Well, it would be imprecise to say "nationality" as the 19th century legislation had not defined nationality as we know it today. He was also naturalized American citizen thus this has to be mentioned. Bilseric (talk) 20:36, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

So if i go to live in Finland does that make me finnish? I agree on the fact that he was a citizen of the USA but him just living in the USA does not make him in any way American. Reepdrake (talk) 21:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The definition of being American is being a citizen of America. You are confusing it with being of American descent (eg: American Indian, or possibly European or African or other descent but your family has been in America for a few generations). Citizenship and descent can be quite different things.  Stepho  talk  00:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but he wasn't just living in USA, he was a naturalized citizen from 1891. I don't think that's in dispute by anyone. Also, the word "descent" isn't really applicable here. It's usually describing someone's ancestry lineage. Bilseric (talk) 18:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nationality

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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...was a Serbian-American inventor??

Imagine that British own a big territory and one of the territories are today's France. Imagine that territory is divide on three parts and speaks French language and have French schools and even British acknowledge that territories.

Now imagine that you are born in that territory and your father and mother are born in that territory too. Your father tells you that you have Serbian roots. Now you walk through the city and tell everyone that you are a Serb. But your born papers says otherwise. Does it make you a Serb because you are telling people that you are a Serb or your papers do?

Now take a look at Nikola Tesla story: In 1856, Croatia was part of Austro-Hungarian empire as autonomous Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia. Even Nikola Tesla passport confirmed that.

Nikola Tesla parents were born also on today's Croatian territory. Nikola Tesla spoke Croatian and went to Croatian schools

Nikola Tesla was only one day in his life in Serbia. So if I'm born in Australia and my grand grandfather was from Serbia, am I a Serb then?

If Croatia didn't existed on that time, how did Croatian language and Croatian schools existed? Even Nikola Tesla said that Croatia is his homeland.

Please remove Cyrillic spelling of his name and remove Serbian-American inventor. He can be only Croatian-American inventor, nothing else.

Not mentioning his Croatian descent before the word inventor is offensive. If you have any proof/papers that he is Serbian, I'll apologies. Endy Angello (talk) 09:44, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Please learn the difference between nationality and ethnicity. (This is not supposed to be news to anyone interested in the WP:ARBMAC topic area.) --Joy (talk) 10:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy So ethnicity is more valid than official documents? Endy Angello (talk) 10:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

No, what the secondary sources say is more valid than any one of ours' interpretations of primary sources. --Joy (talk) 10:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy If secondary sources are official documents then I'm wrong. But if they are not, and your sources is only what someone said, then you are wrong. Endy Angello (talk) 10:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:SECONDARY for more information on what we mean when we say secondary sources. If you notice the article fails to reference such proper secondary sources in this regard, please feel free to point it out. --Joy (talk) 12:14, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Endy Angello If you want to change the wording, you should know that the subject of Tesla's nationality and ethnicity has been argued about on this page continuously for 17 years (see the 15 huge archives at the top of the page) and has long been settled. The current wording was established 10 years ago by an RfC 8 June 2014 and has stood against many efforts to change it, and been confirmed by RfC 12 December 2018 and RfC 11 July 2020. --Chetvorno^TALK 17:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno A: If I and my father are born in Australia and have ancestors from Croatia and I invented a time travel. Should wikipedia write about me: Croatian invented a time travel or it should be: Australian invented a time travel, originating from Croatia?

B: On wikipedia it's stated Will Smith is an American actor. But because you are looking ethnicity first then it should be: Will Smith is an African-American actor. Right?

Ethnicity doesn't make you a citizen of that country. Official document makes you.

In this case you should edit all the famous people of U.S.A. as an ethnicity-american.

I'm arguing here that Nikola Tesla can't be Serbian-American inventor because ethnicity doesn't make you from that country. It's official document that makes you.

So please if you are kind and show me official documents that Nikola Tesla was Serbian and I will apologise.

Until you prove me what I'm asking the page should state Nikola Tesla was Croatian-American inventor originating from Serbia if you are eager that much for him to be Serbian. Endy Angello (talk) 18:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The adjective "Serbian" in English usage regularly refers to people's ethnicity, not just nationality, IOW this is not a sole reference to the country of Serbia. That's why e.g. the term "Croatian Serbian" refers to Serb people from Croatia (like Tesla). Technically the term "Serb" would be more precise, but that's just not as common. --Joy (talk) 19:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy Nikola Tesla (10 July [O.S. 28 June] 1856 – 7 January 1943) was a Serbian-American[5][6] inventor...

And where I can see here the word Croatian as you implied? Endy Angello (talk) 19:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Earlier discussions established consensus that mentioning both Serbs and Croatia would be overloading the article. Which is logical, really, as the average English reader, at least from the US, is used to two-word combinations like "Croatian American", "Serbian American", "African American", "Italian American", etc, and people don't generally expect us to go into this much detail. Whoever reads the article beyond these couple of sentences will see Tesla's connections to Croatia just fine. --Joy (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy You will not enter a word with 8 letters to not overload the article? And the size of the whole wikipedia fits on one USB drive. This is hilarious!

You know, that word that you don't want to edit is a very important word which in this case defines someone's nationality!

As you confirmed in previous message that the word Croatian should be there but it's overloading the page. And now that I assured you that wikipedia will be fine with one more word with 8 letters. I expect that you will edit the article for future readers that maybe read only first few sentences, so they can be informed that Nikola Tesla wasn't only Serbian-American.

If you don't edit this word with only 8 letters, then I would assume that you have political reasons to not edit it and you don't want to better inform the future readers. Endy Angello (talk) 20:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

First of all, the argument that opposition here has political reasons is meaningless, because you likewise can be accused of having political reasons for adding this. Secondly, the part about nationality is actually a bit moot, as the citizenship in that case was Austria-Hungary, as the Military Frontier had not been merged back into the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia until 1881. All of this has been discussed already, so you might want to check the archives before spending more time on rehashing this. --Joy (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy If I'm here for political reasons, then I wouldn't give you proof about what I want to be changed. Read my posts again if you already forgot.

And you haven't given me any proof of official document that proves that he is Serbian.

You and your buddies made some nonsense about his ethnicity and overloading a page if you add Croatian before Serbian-American.

The fact that you stated above is the answer that Serbian in this Serbian-American inventor is the last thing that should be written about him.

It should be like this: Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia if you want to bring up his ethnicity.

As both of us agreed that Serbian ethnicity, especially in Croatia are Croatian-Serbians and if Nikola Tesla in any official document wasn't Serbian, then he can't be Serbian-American inventor.

I repeat: your grand grandfather ethnicity doesn't make you a citizen of that country!

Btw, don't worry how I spend my time, because I like spending my time on things that I know that I'm right. Endy Angello (talk) 21:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Please feel free to acquaint yourself with the policy on how consensus building works on Wikipedia. I'm done with this "you and your buddies" nonsense. --Joy (talk) 07:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy Yes, you are speaking nonsense through whole conversation and deliberately avoiding to show me a proof that Nikola Tesla was Serbian.

You are acting like that consensus is the final law like we or on some kind of court. You know that court decisions can be overturned even after 20 years, right?

Answer me directly why it doesn't state like this: Nikola Tesla was Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia. - And please don't bring up consensus again or overloading the page because that are just bad excuses to not edit it as it should be! Endy Angello (talk) 09:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Joy , the citizenship wasn't Austro-Hungarian. Such had not existed and there's a discussion on this talk page that you can read. It is also not correct that Military Frontier was merged with Kingdom of Croatia in 1881. What happened in 1881 is that Kingdom of Croatia returned civil administration to the part of it's territory that was under military administration. Well, in reality the situation was quite more complex, but the point stands that Military Frontier was a part of Croatia at the time of Tesla's birth. This wasn't even in dispute between Croatia and Austria or Hungary. Nor you would ever seen today, Austrian or Hungarian coming here claiming otherwise. Bilseric (talk) 22:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

To a modern-day reader, it's weird to claim that it was a Croatian citizenship, when we define the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia as clearly within the empire. If you're referring to the discussion #Really unsure why this is such a problem. with Azorzal, I don't quite like the tone there... at the same time I don't see conclusive evidence either, as the Kosnica (2014) paper doesn't seem to mention anything about the Military Frontier at all. This has been a persistent pattern in these Tesla discussions - this matter of location of birthplace and whatnot is just not mentioned most of the time by Tesla biographers. We don't even know for sure if his high school professor was Martin Sekulić. With so relatively little information about this period of his life, it's no wonder nobody wants to give this argument for mentioning Croatia more any credence, even if it seems kind of just stating the obvious to people from those regions. --Joy (talk) 16:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

It's also weird to call him an ethnic Serb when in those time Serbia also didn't officially existed. You are saying that little information about Croatian period of his life existed. And I'm saying that his Serbian period of his life didn't even existed.

Please stop naming some random book sources as the official one!

Here is the one source for you but you'll never claim it as official because it doesn't benefit your side:

Nikola Tesla loved Zagreb, as the capital of his homeland and had nothing but deep respect for the city. When he visited Zagreb, at the invitation of the then mayor of Zagreb, Milan Amruš, in 1892 he gave a speech in the Zagreb City Hall. At one point he said: “I consider it my duty, as a citizen of my country, to help Zagreb in any way I possibly can!”

(A chapter from the book "Understanding Croatia" by Božo Skoko, that can be ordered on Amazon) Endy Angello (talk) 17:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Endy, it's not weird to call Tesla and ethnic Serb. It is supported by secondary sources. And I'm well familiar with the general opinion in Croatia where no one relevant is claiming otherwise. I'm still not sure what your point should be. I'm well familiar with the statement where Tesla is stating that he is a "son of his land" and naming Zagreb as it's capital. This shows his opinion but can't be the same as stating that the matter of citizenship is determined by his opinion. We also have his statement where is is saying that he as born in "Croatia". I would argue that he was smart enough to know where he was born, but, again, it shows how people had not always followed the official political borders and definitions. I would put forward that Tesla was a subject of Kingdom of Croatia to avoid connotations which come with the term "citizenship". But, not to prolong, you can read my post below and the advices I wrote, maybe that would be better, because I feel we are just throwing random facts and opinions without a goal.Bilseric (talk) 19:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

No. It's perfectly fine to use the ethonyms Serb or Croat in the 1880s, because that's unrelated to the status of the countries. I'm sorry, but this is a pretty basic fact, especially as it relates in this contentious topic area (WP:Competence is required). --Joy (talk) 20:33, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The whole meaning of the word "citizenship" as we know it today can't be applied to the 19th century Austrian Empire and whichever one you put forward it would be wrong. I'm sorry about the tone of the discussion, but I have put forward a very good source which deals in depth with the matter of citizenship in 19th century Austrian Empire. If one is to discuss the subject matter here, this source is a must read. Unfortunately, I understand it's not on English. Sorry, I don't remember what Kosnica paper is and I can't find it with the search. Some time has passed since that discussion and I can't remember all the details. What I'm trying to point out is that having the mentioned source on mind, one could understand why Tesla said the he was born in Croatia or why his passport is issued by Kingdom of Croatia , Slavonia and Dalmatia. This primary sources do have sense and are not just to be disregarded. One would then understand why, from time to time, discussions like this pop out. Bilseric (talk) 19:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion continued from WP:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Summary_of_dispute_by_Chetvorno

Endy Angello: A passport is a WP:primary source. Wikipedia doesn't accept single primary sources as WP:reliable sources to support content (WP:PSTS), secondary sources are required, such as reputable biographies. Tesla wasn't born in Croatia, at the time Smiljian was part of the Military Frontier of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. This is what the biography cited at the end of the sentence in our article says:

• "At the time of Nikola Tesla's birth, Serbia and Croatia were part of the huge Austro-Hungarian Empire" Michael Burgan, Tesla: Physicist, Inventor, Electrical Engineer, p.19

Other Tesla biographies agree:

• "Nikola Tesla was born an ethnic Serb within the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire ..." Emory Clark, The Biography of Nikola Tesla
• "Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At the time a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire..." Bernard Carlson, Tesla: Inventor of the Electric Age, p.13
• "Tesla was born to Serbian parents in what was then the Austrian Empire (now in Croatia)" Encyclopaedia Britannica
• "Nikola Tesla was born a subject of the Austro-Hungarian Empire..." Tesla: Life and Legacy, PBS]
• "Tesla... was born to Serbian parents near the western edge of the Austro-Hungarian Empire..." Margaret Cheney, Roger Uth, Tesla: Master of Lightning, p.3

--Chetvorno^TALK 19:36, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno If he wasn't born in Croatia, then why he called Croatia his homeland?

If Croatia didn't exist why he went to Croatian school?

I repeat: your grand grandfather ethnicity doesn't make you a citizen of that country! If you think otherwise then you'll need to change all American famous people articles on Wikipedia. Endy Angello (talk) 19:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno Btw how do you know that his parents were from Serbia if your source states that Croatia and Serbia was under Austro-Hungarian empire. Then in theory his parents and their ancestors weren't Serbian because your source states that both countries didn't exist at the time. Please...

We all know the history of Balkan and how old Croatia and Serbia are. But you are interpreting your sources how it benefits you and Serbian people without including the other party in this case, a really important one.

I think you forgot to mention that his parents were actually born on Croatian territory and their origins were from Serbia!

And you and Joy both never answered me what's wrong with this and why you don't want to include Croatia: Nikola Tesla was Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia. Endy Angello (talk) 20:22, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

JFTR: User talk:Endy Angello#Page blocks. --Joy (talk) 08:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Chetvorno, for someone who often references previous discussions, stating that Nikola Tesla wasn't born in Croatia comes quite astray. Quite some, both primary an secondary sources, were posted on this topic to conclude that Tesla's birthplace was "Kingdom of Croatia" (as show, even by sources posted by you). The fact that Tesla biographers haven't put much emphasis to this topic makes some editors state some outright inaccurate claims. This, in no way, should be the reason for editors to "muddy the water" and make false claims. Bilseric (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno actually, now that you mention it, the Burgan (2009) book that you linked says on page 9:

As a teenager in Gospic, Austrian Croatia, Nikola Tesla had seen a picture of the mighty falls.

Likewise, the note on page 19 that you cited ends pointedly with:

Today both nations unite in honoring Tesla's ties to them.

Hence I don't think trying to interpret this source so stringently to somehow preclude mentions of Croatia is appropriate. --Joy (talk) 07:39, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Admittedly, this was posted in context of answering this other user, but even while addressing people who are quite disagreeable, we should pay attention to not go overboard (two wrongs don't make a right). --Joy (talk) 07:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Military Frontier should be updated to Croatian Military Frontier

The main article about Nikola Tesla often mentions Military Frontier, but to be more precise it should be written Croatian Military Frontier because the Austrian Military Frontier had multiple districts spanning from Croatia to Romania including the Croatian Military Frontier. You can see more in detail about the subject in this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Military_Frontier

At the time of Nikola Tesla birth and his elementary and high school education, Smiljan & Karlovac were a part of Croatian Military Frontier which was under administration of Austrian Empire. In 1881. Croatian Military Frontier was incorporated into Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. Afordic (talk) 14:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

This is perfectly correct. Tesla was born in Croatian Military Frontier. You can try and make an edit request, but you'll find out that some editors here have a problem with the "Croatian" part of the Military Frontier. There is a long narrative present at this article that Tesla can be either "Croatian" or "Serbian". Some time ago the Serbian narrative came up top, and quite some "Croatian" narrative words were removed from the article. I'm of the opinion that Tesla is as much Croatian scientist as he is Serbian or American. I would say the sources agree, only some editors don't, for whichever reason. Bilseric (talk) 22:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Participants on that subpage must give a policy-based reason why the terms used in the article are incorrect, or their comments will also be removed without reply from that page.

That's what it says on the main talk page, and it's being ignored. We now have three WP:SPAs, ie single purpose editors, whose only edits are about this issue. I don't have time right now but I'd appreciate anyone else removing comments that don't confirm with this statement about policy-based reasons. I'm open to any other suggestions to stop this behavior. User:Joy, any suggestions? Doug Weller talk 09:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe Doug can also take a look all above claims from me and other users and why always the same users don't want Croatia to be included anywhere on the part where we are suggesting that article is incorrect.

Offering random books as a secondary source that claims he was an ethic Serb,

but those books also stated that Serbia didn't officially existed as a country when

Nikola Tesla was born is very obvious dodging to include Croatia.

Then if Croatia is not mentioned, Serbia can't be mentioned either. Mention both countries, or neither one!

It should be:

Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia. Endy Angello (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla loved Zagreb, as the capital of his homeland and had nothing but deep respect for the city. When he visited Zagreb, at the invitation of the then mayor of Zagreb, Milan Amruš, in 1892 he gave a speech in the Zagreb City Hall. At one point he said: “I consider it my duty, as a citizen of my country, to help Zagreb in any way I possibly can!”

(A chapter from the book "Understanding Croatia" by Božo Skoko, that can be ordered on Amazon) Endy Angello (talk) 15:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller I don't know, we've been rather lax about policing this over the years, but then occasionally instituted comparatively draconian rules, like the existence of this talk page. I don't think there can be any other recourse to this than to require people to WP:CITE sources and enforce general civility rules on a case-by-case basis. For example, you could issue a strict warning to Endy Angello for casually casting aspersions (the "You and your buddies" edit above). --Joy (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller You could also issue a strict warning to Joy for offending Croatian people and not accepting other sources except sources that only benefits one side/his side here. Maybe you can also teach him that ethnicity doesn't make you a citizen of that Country (then Americans are not Americans) even if random sources claims it. On that note then Croatian books and other sources should be accepted too. I want to include both countries and he and his friends only want one. Endy Angello (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

JFTR: User talk:Endy Angello#Page blocks. --Joy (talk) 07:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's lower the tensions and start over. First of all, Doug Weller, the cited rule wasn't ever enforced, nor I could see a scenario where someone could enforce such a rule. Wikipedia should be open to discussion and have more understanding for new users. I would even opt to remove the cited sentence as there should be no one to decide what's "acceptable" and what's not according to the quoted rule. Endy Angello , you are obviously not familiar how Wikipedia works. You will accomplish very little with such emotional comments and accusations. If you feel something in the article should be changed, you can edit the article yourself as it's not protected. If you get reverted you can open a discussion. However, please note that wikipedia summarizes Secondary sources. You are as well welcomed to post Primary sources, but back them up with secondary (have this in mind Wikipedia:Use of primary sources in Wikipedia). Also, note that article content is based on consensus. It doesn't always end up with everyone satisfied, and it doesn't always list all factual data to have it simplified for the reader to consume. From all the clutter you posted, I don't even understand what you would like to accomplish. If you would like, I advise you to start over and be concise and on the point. Bilseric (talk) 18:55, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bilseric Nikola Tesla was Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia. Endy Angello (talk) 19:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I agree, it is correct, and no one should be offended by this definition. Would you also understand that Serbian readers would rather emphasize his ethnicity and have it rather stated as "Serbian-American" inventor? Would you agree that those two are equally correct? Bilseric (talk) 19:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

This phrase is not the best, because while it might be technically possible to say that all Serbs originate from Serbia, Tesla's family was pretty much native to Croatia at the time when he lived - they weren't recent immigrants from Serbia or anything like that, they were part of the autochthonous population called the Serbs of Croatia. Both his mother and father were apparently born and raised in Lika, and probably others. We have a sentence in the article saying Tesla's ancestors were from western Serbia, near Montenegro. but we don't know how many generations back that goes. While using the adjective "Serbian" for Tesla might be considered technically ambiguous, it's the phrasing found in most sources and this is not really supposed to be news to anyone.

Ultimately, if you want to figure our how to mention Croatia in Tesla's article that you think would be more appropriate, be aware that that is an orthogonal issue to his Serb origin, one is not supposed to come at the expense of the other. --Joy (talk) 07:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Since this discussion has revolved around the actions of a now-blocked editor, does anyone mind if we close it out, and continue whatever needs to be continued in another one? --Joy (talk) 08:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your points. It's not the best, but, I think, it was a good starting point to find common ground. I feel that, in the end, we would have agreed that the article is correct and that the changes that editor suggested are equally correct. Bilseric (talk) 22:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bilseric You say the cited rule was never enforced. How do you know? Doug Weller talk 19:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller The 16 June 2015 RfC which instituted this page didn't include any such language authorizing deletion of comments, I think that was just something the editor who wrote the banner added. I'll remove it. I would be in favor of such a rule, though. This is a pretty disrupted article. --Chetvorno^TALK 01:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno Very much so. Notice that my posts are called clutter and emotional by an editor who is a single purpose account, with 263 edits since: February 19, 2017 almost all on this topic including complaints at ANI. See also their reply to an editor 2 and a half years go[2]. Bilseric's 2nd reply is fine, about sources, etc. Their first reply shows a serious lack of good faith including a claim that if an RfC is created it will be closed "before any other uninvolved editor can join to disagree with their opinion."

Here is an example of an RfC Bilseric started that was closed by User:Rosguill who said " All editors that have participated other than the editor who opened the proposal agree that the cited sources motivating the proposal are irrelevant to the issue at hand and that arguments based upon them are some combination of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, and WP:CHERRYPICKING".[3] There were others. Doug Weller talk 12:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, the clutter and emotional mentions were not aimed at me. Apologies to User:Bilseric. Doug Weller talk 16:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

To clarify: talk pages are not for discussion of the subject itself but of the article using policy based arguments

So you can discuss sources, layout, etc but you must use policy or guideline based arguments and just claiming you are right about any issue isn’t sufficient. Note we have various discussion boards, eg WP:RSN to argue whether or not a source meets our criteria. If editors continue to just use this page as a forum I can block them from this page as a partial block. I am not going to discuss content issues here, just behaviour. Doug Weller talk 20:41, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course. New users sometimes are not fully familiar with how things work on Wikipedia. Decade and some time ago when I was starting, more experienced editors had to explain it to me, and I hope I have helped a little with my last post. Bilseric (talk) 20:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to quote User:Joy's post to your talk page:"Wikipedia talk pages are the place to discuss the content of Wikipedia articles. They are not forums for general discussion about the topic or other topics. Talking about "sides" and what country officials do with regards to a biographical text about a long-dead scientist, while discussing with another editor, is pushing awfully close to engaging in furtherance of outside conflicts."

Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines covers this also."Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article. Comments that are plainly irrelevant are subject to archiving or removal."

Stay objective': Talk pages are not a place for editors to argue their personal point of view about a controversial issue. They are a place to discuss how the points of view of reliable sources should be included in the article, so that the end result is neutral. The best way to present a case is to find properly referenced material.

I've spent far too much time on this page - I have no interest in the debate, just in stopping the disruption which has been going on for years. Sanctions apply to this talk page which can be used to deal with anyone not adhering to our policies and guidelines, including civility, good faith, etc. Doug Weller talk 12:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

citizenship in Austria-Hungary Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia

@Bilseric in a previous discussion we mentioned a source you linked to:

• https://hrcak.srce.hr/en/clanak/183344 Kosnica, Ivan. "The determination of Citizenship in Croatia-Slavonia 1849-1880." Zbornik radova Pravnog fakulteta u Splitu, vol. 51, no. 3, 2014, pp. 697-713.

This is what I meant by the paper which doesn't seem to mention anything about the Military Frontier at all. That's why it's very hard to see how this would be a useful paper to cite in the Tesla article. It doesn't mention the article subject nor does it address the terms used in the article about the subject, so it would require WP:OR from our readers to figure out what we mean, and that would be a policy violation. --Joy (talk) 07:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's note for the record a few quotes from the document @AzorzaI posted in that previous discussion:

• https://openlib.tugraz.at/download.php?id=5fbe2f740ec5f&location=browse Nikola Tesla and the Graz Tech. Edited by Uwe Schichler and Josef W. Wohinz. Graz University of Technology/Library and Archive. 2019. doi:10.3217/978-3-85125-687-1

On pages 14 and 15 they specifically delve into this matter:

Nikola Tesla was born at Smiljan, in the Lika border region (in today’s Croatia) on 10 July 1856. At the time of his birth, this region was part of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy. Accordingly, the following formulation is to be found in his later patent applications (in the USA):

‘Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, of Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria Hungary, have invented…’ (Patent No. 355, 786, dated February, 9, 1886).

‘Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, a subject of the Emperor of Austria, from Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria-Hungary, residing at New York, in the county and State of New York, have invented…’ (Patent No. 455, 069, dated June 30, 1891).

His parents were Serbs. He came to see himself as one, even after he acquired American citizenship in 1891.

So this source would actually directly support the mention of Lika in the text (rather than focusing on the Military Frontier). I'll see if I can add it. --Joy (talk) 08:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it's a good source to gain better understanding about the subject matter. Indeed, it doesn't mention Military Frontier, however, it does state that legal acts are applicable to all lands of Hungarian crown. And, as I argued earlier, in the legal point of view, Military Frontier was a part of Croatia-Slavonia. Maybe I'll send a mail to the author to ask whether he has some other work which deals more with Military Frontier itself (legal status , etc.). Today, I went to search for more sources and I see that the same author has several of them on this subject. Here's one on English Croatian Law on Regulation of Local Citizenship. There are, as well, other good sources from the same author, but I couldn't find them. I could only see the title and the summary. I'll post them if I find them, eventually. Also, note that Tesla wasn't naturalized until 1891, past when Military Frontier was abolished. He was a subject of those legal acts up until 1891. The sources mention that the question of citizenship was determined through a number of legal acts from 1848 up to 1880 (if I remember correctly the law from 1880 was the last one and valid until 1918 and still in use in Yugoslavia). I would think that, after reading the source, it should be understandable why Tesla's passport was issued by "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". After all, the source does state: "...local citizenship was very important element of someone's legal identity in Austria" (page 88)

Yes, I'm familiar with the mention of Lika and "border country" in Tesla's patents. I'm not sure if there's a significant relevance to mention it in the article. Bilseric (talk) 23:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Conversely, I would say that there's no significant relevance to any of these legal statutes to be mentioned in the Tesla article, because they do not directly relate to the biography at hand nor would it be obvious to the average English reader how it indirectly relates to it. If the preponderance of Tesla biographers don't discuss this, neither should the encyclopedia article. Including such a thing would be effectively promoting a historical legal concept, and that's simply a disservice to the readers interested in reading an encyclopedic Tesla biography.

On this note, we have articles about the Triune Kingdom and about the Trialism in Austria-Hungary, where the encyclopedia describes the facts of the matter related to this. We do not, however, go out of our way to add such didascalia to every tangentially related article about topics from the same time periods.

Fundamentally, an encyclopedia describes, it does not prescribe. Please stop suggesting that it does the latter, because this is quickly becoming a waste of our volunteer time and effort. --Joy (talk) 19:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Note also that the fact that Tesla had a passport is of similar relevance to the article as the fact that he had a baptismal record - it's a bit of clerical information that won't really interest the average reader. On that note, I'm going to suggest dropping that baptismal record picture in the main talk page now. --Joy (talk) 19:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, sources that directly relate to Tesla would be needed to make an edit to the article. However, this source can help understand subject matter (and as such should be used on the talk page). Tesla sources often don't deal with nationality or ethnicity in great detail. Many of them are even purely incorrect. That's why it's helpful to have a source which specifically deals with the question on nationality, even if not directly related to Tesla.

I'm a proponent of having facts and sources straight and then make a decision whether article would benefit, or it's too complex for the reader, or irrelevant. From that point of view, Tesla's passport and baptismal record are of great value to me, as it this Kosnica source. I hope that I have provided some value and have elevated the discussion to a higher lever.

If someone in not agreeing with the article content, the talk page should provide more info, and one could understand why the article has the content it has. At least, this was my approach and value, that have I tried to provide here.

Everyone has different interests and approach to editing Wikipedia. I do understand you point of view about the article content and value your opinion. I hope that you can see that, after you mentioned Kosnica source, I have tried to find better sources. I have spent several hours doing so and I hope you can value that too. Bilseric (talk) 20:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

We're talking about an encyclopedia article about the topic, not a scholarly monography about the topic. It's a summary of general knowledge, not a repository of all relevant material about the topic. For more information, please refer to the policy of WP:What Wikipedia is not, in particular the parts about scientific journals and indiscriminate collections of information. --Joy (talk) 21:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

But you have started this whole section called "citizenship in Austria-Hungary Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia". I've just answered. Shouldn't your comment be directed towards yourself, not me? It seems pointless to me that I should "defend" your own section from your own comments. This isn't really topic related and I'll drop out of this discussion. All the best. Bilseric (talk) 22:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Military Border Legal Status

I realize some time has passed when this was discussed. Recent edits to this talk page brought me back and Joy with his previous section had sparked my interest into researching for sources. Maybe, if I have more time, I'll do some more research which would provide some value.

For now I stumbled on the source which surely will be valuable as this was discussed years back. Some time ago someone posted the Horvat source which was widely discussed. There were some remarks regarding Horvat source, for example user Chetvorno had remarks in this comment [4]. Today, I found another secondary source which mentiones the exact subject matter. Unfortunately, again, it's not on English. I'll provide the tralsation:

"Manifest...was signed by the Emperor...1850. For Croatian-Slavonian Military Border it was concluded...Croatian-Slavonian Military area will remain, as it was up to now, in union with it's mother land and will constitute with it one territorial area, but with separated provincial administration, separated border administration and separated represenation". M Valentić · 1978, page 48 [5].

Previous remarks was that the Horvat source is too old (I cannot find edit to that remark but it vaguely remember it). Chetvorno mentioned: "statement made by the King in 1850. Whatever it says doesn't imply it actually happened". (which, in my opinon wasn't correct even for Horvat source, as secondary source can make a statement in the form of a quote to the primary source, as we can expect the secondary source providing the context whether "it actually happened" ). This source provides the same statement which is not in the form of a quote thus concluding the matter on this point.

I do need to point out this isn't a Tesla source and we don't need perpetual discussions about that. Bilseric (talk) 21:38, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that Valentić (1978) article is interesting, but if you simply keep reading past that paragraph on page 48, on page 53 it's explained how a few months after that March 1850 document, a new Temeljni zakon Krajine was announced in May, and it did not include most of Croatian demands. This is fundamentals of WP:V - you can't just cherry-pick one part of a source and ignore the rest of it.

The above post was effectively a violation of the anti-advocacy provisions of WP:ARBMAC. I might no longer be uninvolved here, but I would advise to treat this message as a final warning. --Joy (talk) 22:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree. It doesn't referr to the proclamation I mentioned. It talks about demands described on the same page, which is something different. Of course, I haven't tryed to cherry pick. I have posted the whole source and it can be discussed whether my quote is out of the context.

I do see one more quote that you haven't mentioned. For the purpose of being objective, I will mention it, as I have noticed it on the same page: "New Krajina constitution is proclaiming the whole Military Border being a part of the imperial army. Accordingly ... population of Krajina...is the subject of the army and in under the regulation of austrain military law. ". This doesn't either negate the previous proclamation as it is not reffering to legal status of Military Border as the previous proclamation does. It does reffer to administrative aspect (see below). Bilseric (talk) 22:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, after reading again. "Demands" that you are mentioning are definately not related to the proclamation. The quote I provided is using the formulation "Military Border being a part of imperial army". "Part of" doesn't make much sense as those to entities can't be part of another. However, the context is explained in the following sentence by saing: "According to this law the population of Krajia ..belongs to the army". This is purely related to administrative aspect, not legal , and as the previous quote that I have provided says, administration is separated from legal status. Although, the source says "part of imperial army" from the context of the source it's clear that , what is actually meant is, "under army administration". Bilseric (talk) 23:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, no such thing you are mentioning I can see in Horvat soure. Here's a link to page 160 where is mentioning provincial constitutions. Few pages earlier the 1850's proclamation is mentioned. [6]. I feel that I've done my share of due diligence here, and have provided the full context of the quote from 2 different sources. Bilseric (talk) 01:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Joy maybe you have missed to notice that Tesla sources also mention the legal status of Military Border. Chetvorno has posted this source in the upper discussion:

"Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time, a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was referred to as Vojna Krajina ..." Bernard Carlson, Tesla: Inventor of the Electric Age, p.13

This is a secondary source and a Tesla biography thus not SYNTH. It is the best source from wiki point of view. Furthermore we have 2 historical sources which do back up this and put more depth. You and others had doubts about SYNTH and the complexity the historical sources bring. To is very easy for the reader to understand. It is a Tesla source. I really hope that you can value the effort I have put into every doubt and remark you had by bringing secondary sources and directly quoting them. Bilseric (talk) 15:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)