Talk:Obake

Native Hawaiian

This article says that bakemono stories have been to passed on to Native Hawaiian culture, that seems inaccurate. Native Hawaiian is the Hawaiian speaking culture that existed prior to Captain Cook visiting Hawaii in 1778. It is more likely the bakemono stories were passed on to the local culture in Hawaii, which is made up of various cultures, Chinese, Philippino, Japanese, Korean etc. Zanshin (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:39, 1 July 2010 (UTC).

Examples of yokai

I took out the "obakeneko" because it was superfluous next to the kitsune. They are both shapeshifters, and I felt only one example of such was needed, and the kitsune is the most well known of the two. Shikino 18:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

RE: the latest reversion:

"Obakemono" is actually a very rare term in Japanese, "bakemono" is the usual term. I just chose it for my website because the domain was available. I think the edit should stay (and other uses of the term "obakemono" on wikipedia should be changed also). Kotengu 04:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: google searches for comparison just to prove it: obakemono (106 results) VS bakemono (1,380,000 results) Kotengu 05:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I think that this article and the youkai article should be merged together into one article called "bakemono" (with redirects from "yokai", "obakemono", and "obake"), because: (1) they are largely the same thing, as both Yahoo Dictionary and the Japanese wikipedia pages give these words as definitions for each other, and (2) bakemono should be the name of the new article because it is the most common term in Japan and also is most commonly used in English translations of Japanese folklore books. (Example: Keigo Seki's Folktales of Japan.) Shikino 14:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's the thread on my messageboard where this is being discussed: http://www.obakemono.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=youkai;action=display;num=1162531153

I'll repost the pertinent translated definitions here:

Bakemono: [synonymous with Obake] Animals and inanimate objects and such appearing in the form of a person. Shapeshifted foxes and raccoon dogs and the like, and the spirits of willows and cherry trees as well as snow-women. Also things with bizarre shapes like hitotsume-kozō, ō-nyūdō, and rokurokubi. An obake. A yōkai. [1]

Yōkai: Miraculous phenonema and weird entities which defy human understanding. Tengu, hitotsume-kozō, kappa and other imaginary things. A bakemono. [2]

And partial translations of the articles from the Japanese wikipedia:

Obake

[3]

Obake is a general term for transformed spiritual beings. Often confused with yūrei and bōrei [human ghosts] and such.

Summary

----

Commonly in the speech of children, it is confused to mean yūrei or bōrei, but an obake is the transformation of an inanimate object or an animal. When a thing is handled roughly, due to its being thrown away it transforms and appears afterwards. This is an obake. Animals and the like which are killed in cold blood, and die harboring resentment and then appear in a different form are also called obake. They are also called keshō (化生).

Yōkai

[4]

A yōkai is a supernatural being which symbolizes a strange and mysterious phenomenon which humans cannot understand, or otherwise a being from Japanese folklore whose behavior deviates from common sense and which exhibits mysterious abilities. This sort of being is called yōsei (fairy) in Europe.

Oni, tengu, kappa and such, the legends are handed down in great numbers, so research in the field of folklore progresses.

Based just on this, I'm not sure if the articles should be merged, but I do think that if they aren't yōkai should become the dominant article of the two. The Mangajin article here seems to be somewhat misleading in defining obake as the general term for ghosts and monsters with yōkai as a subcategory. If anything, it's the other way around.

Kotengu 21:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Due to the recent rewrite by Kotengu, (Jan 07) I am removing the "proposed for merger" tag from the article Yōkai. If an editor believes they should still be merged, feel free to re-submit it for consideration, but I am not sure any discussion occuring so far has the same degree of bearing on the newer version. ◄Zahakiel► 23:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite

I just rewrote this page. If anybody wants to double-check/overhaul the section on Hawaii and get specific citations for it, please do so; I based some of it on memory of skimming through the book I cited, which I do not have in my possession currently. Kotengu 小天狗 00:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

What's the difference?

Between Bakemono, Kemono, Mamono, & Warumono? I think they're all categories with subdevisions. I'm sure Totetsu & Ningyo fall under Kemono, but not sure about Oni, Mazoku, Youkai, & Youma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.236.220 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 29 May 2007

What those all are is words, which have various nuances depending on the context, much like in English. Here, let's ask the Daijirin dictionary on Yahoo Japan:

ばけもの 【化け物】 Bakemono

［1］異様な姿・形をして、化け現れたもの。妖怪変化。おばけ。

[1] A thing with a bizarre shape or form, which appears in a transformed state. A yōkai henge. An obake.

［2］普通の人間とは思われない能力をもっている人。

[2] A person who possesses abilities that are not apparent to ordinary humans.

けもの【獣】Kemono

〔補説〕 毛物の意

[supplemental theory:] means "hairy thing" (ke-mono).

けだもの。

A beast.

まもの 【魔物】Mamono

［1］魔性のもの。妖怪(ようかい)。ばけもの。

[1] A devilish thing. A yōkai. A bakemono.

［2］人を迷わせたり破滅に導いたりするもの。

[2] A thing which perplexes people and leads them into ruin.

"Warumono" (悪物) literally just means "a bad thing". According to the Daijirin it's

質の劣った物。粗悪品。

A thing lacking in quality. Inferior goods.

While the Daijisen says:

悪いことをする者。悪人。

A person who does bad things. A villain.

"Totetsu" (that is, Tāotiè) in the monster sense doesn't even show up in the dictionary. I suspect because it's rather a thoroughly Chinese thing.

にんぎょ 【人魚】Ningyo

上半身が人間（多くは女）で、下半身が魚であるという想像上の動物。

An imaginary animal said to have the upper body of a human (often a woman) and the lower body of a fish.

おに 【鬼】Oni

〔補説〕 姿が見えない意の「隠」の字音「おん」の転という

[supplemental theory:] said to be based on "on", a reading of the character "隠", meaning a form which is not seen.

［1］（天つ神に対して）地上の国つ神。荒ぶる神。

[1] (In regard to heavenly kami) Kami of the earthly countries. Rough kami.

［2］人にたたりをする怪物。もののけ。幽鬼。

[2] A monster which curses people. A mononoke. A yūrei.

［3］醜悪な形相と恐るべき怪力をもち、人畜に害をもたらす、想像上の妖怪。仏教の影響で、夜叉(やしや)・羅刹(らせつ)・餓鬼や、地獄の獄卒牛頭(ごず)・馬頭(めず)などをさす。牛の角を生やし、虎の皮のふんどしをつけた姿で表されるのは、陰陽道(おんようどう)で丑寅(うしとら)（北東）の隅を鬼門といい、万鬼の集まる所と考えられたためという。

[3] An imaginary yōkai with ugly features and dreadful superhuman strength, which brings harm to people and animals. Under the influence of Buddhism, indicates a yaksha, rakshasha, or gaki, the prison guards of hell gozu and mezu, and other such things. As for it having a form growing the horns of an ox and wearing the skin of a tiger as a loincloth, it is said to be due to considering the place where ten thousand demons gather, the corner of Onyōdō's "ushitora" (means "ox tiger") (northwest direction), called the kimon (demon gate).

［4］放逐された者や盗賊など、社会からの逸脱者、また先住民・異民族・大人(おおひと)・山男などの見なれない異人をいう。山伏や山間部に住む山窩(さんか)などをいうこともある。

[4] Ostracized people, thieves, and other such persons, people who deviate from society, and also former inhabitants, different races, large people, mountain men and other foreign people not often seen are called this. Yamabushi and nomads living in the mountainous regions may also be called this.

［5］子孫の祝福に来る祖霊や地霊。

[5] Ancestral and earth spirits who come to bless their descendants.

［6］死者の霊魂。亡霊。

[6] The spirit of a dead person. A ghost.

Mazoku has no results and I'm not sure just what the heck it is either except that I'm guessing it's written 魔族, which would mean "demon tribe/race".

ようかい［えうくわい］ 【▼妖怪】Yōkai

日常の経験や理解を超えた不思議な存在や現象。山姥・天狗・一つ目小僧・海坊主・河童・雪女など。ばけもの。

Mysterious beings and phenomenon which exceed ordinary experience and understanding. Yama-uba, tengu, hitotsume-kozō, umi-bōzu, kappa, yuki-onna, and other such things. A bakemono.

ようま［えう―］ 1 【▼妖魔】Yōma

化け物。妖怪。魔物。

A bakemono. A yōkai. A mamono.

I hope this answers your questions. Kotengu 小天狗 05:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Probably also worth pointing out that bakemono is frequently colloquially used to refer to any monster, while obake or any of the other terms tend to be reserved for native mythology. Mazoku tends to be more a creation of pulp fantasy novels than an actual historical term. Doceirias (talk) 07:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)