Talk:Old Kingdom of Egypt

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ekane2.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:37, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Cleanup

El Bicho's erra suuuuu king — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.177.156.33 (talk) 08:34, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that I added the cleanup prompt at the top of this page due to reading this line "a mysterious pyramid in Meidum (a failure), the famous Bent Pyramid in Dahshur (another failure), and the small Red Pyramid, also in Dashur."

I'm fairly certain the Red Pyramid is the same height as the bent pyramid and they both hold the title of 3rd tallest pyramid in Egypt, after the two at Giza. Also, the Bent pyramid is one of I believe 3 still in tact pyramids at Dashur, from a total of 12, so I wouldn't necessarily label it a failure. Dashur is also spelled two different ways in the same sentence, which is the more common I'm not sure so I'll leave it like that but spelling it two ways in a single article is bad enough, let alone the same sentence.

I suggest the common spelling be used, and in its first instance, refer to its alternate spelling in parentheses.

-HawkeyE 09:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Tried to correct this, can you check the paragraph now ? Markh 13:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Pharaoh

The Ancient Egyptians didn't call their kings Pharaohs until well into the New Kingdom... over a thousand years later.

Over a thousand years.

See the wiki entry Pharaoh. It was a title in a letter to Aknenaten and only LATER than THIS became a title for a king. Much later.

I do not believe it serves any good purpose to universally use the term Pharaoh as King. It creates the impression that kings in the Old Kingdom were Pharaohs. They were not.

I think it should say "King."

Hank01 22:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

In modern times the kings of ancient Egypt are universally called pharaohs. It is true that the title from which the word "pharaoh" is derived, per-aa (meaning "great house"), was not used until much later. However, this word was just another royal title and reflects no change in how the Egyptian monarch was perceived by his people– he was always the divine ruler of Egypt. In contrast, the word "pharaoh" in modern usage specifically evokes the ancient Egyptian god-king. A. Parrot (talk) 04:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Glad that I came here first. I was going to say that this article contradicts itself by stating in paragraph 3 that the Old Kingdom kings were not called pharaohs and then going on to use the term pharaoh for the remainder of the article. Dailey78 (talk) 02:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)dailey78 this does not help the reader at all — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.108.158.19 (talk) 16:52, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Chiming in here a decade later. I think the article does make it confusing, especially to someone not aware of the nuances surrounding the use of the term "pharaoh" in modern times vis-à-vis its historical use in Egyptian society. Either the parenthetical note in the first section should be removed, or the rulers of the Old Kingdom should be referred to as kings throughout the article to avoid confusion and seeming contradiction. Mpaniello (talk) 16:45, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Distinction between Old Kingdom and Early Dynastic

Shouldn't this article include the reasons why egyptologists draw a distinction between the Early Dynastic period and the Old Kingdom? I'm unclear on those reasons myself. There was a rise in prosperity and in the scale of constructions (pyramids), but that alone doesn't seem enough to divide the two periods. If anyone has this information, please add it. A. Parrot (talk) 04:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Good question, and since Amazon has delivered The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, I've added an explanation. Thanks for the question. Doug Weller (talk) 09:33, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Decline

I do not agree with the whole paragraph on the decline of the Old Kingdom. The fifth dynasty is certainly not part of "the decline" as attested by the extensive building programs of the kings of this dynasty. It is really far fetched to attribute the collapse of the Old Kingdom, which happen sometime after 2200BC to the constructions of the 4th dynasty around 200 to 300 years earlier, especially in the view of the monumental achievements of the 5th dynasty (plus some during the 6th). At the opposite the 4.2ky event is a far more plossible explanation, on top of gradual decentralization of power from the end of the 4th dynasty onward. These observations are based on the "Oxford history of Ancient Egypt" by Shaw. Also I would like to know the source for the statement that after Userkaf and Sahure, a civil war happened in Egypt. This statement completely obliterates the reality of the late 5th dynasty, which was brilliant in many respect: look at the solar temples they built, the prosperous reign of Djedkare Isesi, the pyramid of Unas etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.246.64 (talk) 18:01, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

You are right, and I've changed the article accordingly (I did not write it originally). The civil wars that the article mentions seem to be the standard description of the disintegration of the Old Kingdom, which is usually placed no earlier than Pepi II, so I don't know why it mentioned Userkaf and Sahure as if the civil wars began right after their time. I also removed another sentence or two that stated doubtful things with too much certainty; the Old Kingdom was more than four millennia ago and our understanding of it is really very dim. A. Parrot (talk) 20:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you the updated version is much much better than the previous one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.246.64 (talk) 13:12, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Userkaf

Yet another claim of the article regarding the "weakness" of the 5th dynasty : The Fifth Dynasty began with Userkaf (2465–2458 BC), who initiated reforms that weakened the Pharaoh and central government. Needless to say this is completely unsubstantiated (no reference), plus this is not mentioned in the article about Userkaf. I propose to remove this sentence on the basis that it partial and groundless. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues

There are some problems with the map. It's not very pretty for one thing. It's also not accurate, since the Old Kingdom included Sinai and the Oases. This file is along the right lines, or we could go for one without borders marked (they're a bit anachronistic, anyway) Furius (talk) 19:13, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

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Further reading

Just wondering why Kim Ryholt's book on the Second Intermediate Period is listed here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.225.94.174 (talk) 08:03, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Noah's flood

I notice a distinct lack of mention of how the population of Egypt, and of course the entire world, was completely extinguished in the Great Flood of approximately 2348 BCE. GalantFan (talk) 02:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Noah's flood is a Jewish myth. Nobody died in Egypt. Dimadick (talk) 16:31, 1 August 2020 (UTC)