Talk:Olive, Lady Baillie

Naming convention

I note the recent action to move the title to "Olive, Lady Baillie". I am not sure that this is correct so I used the advice here (Item 6). If there is better advice elsewhere in WP please let me know. The subject of the article was generally known as "Lady Baillie". Peter I. Vardy (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear Peter, you are right that she was known as "Lady Baillie" but also as "Olive, Lady Baillie" after her divorce in 1944 from her third husband, a baronet (who died in 1947). Since her husband never remarried, there was no second Lady Baillie who would require the subject to assume the latter style. However, her son married in 1966 and his new wife became Lady Baillie, thus forcing the mother-in-law to assume either the style of "The Dowager Lady Baillie" or "Olive, Lady Baillie". At least one website (cited below) calls her that. Olive, Lady Baillie, died in 1974.

Hon. Olive Cecilia Paget

her son's details - marriage 1966

There is a problem with an article named "Lady Baillie" in that it can refer to any numbers of Ladies Baillie (see at the end).

She was never Lady Olive Baillie, which means that the article was originally titled incorrectly. She was born Olive Cecilia Paget, and was later Hon. Olive Paget, daughter of a younger son of a peer, who became a peer in his own right as Baron Queenborough. His title died with him - no sons. She married thrice, firstly and secondly to mere misters, and lastly to a baronet. At her last marriage, she was Lady Baillie. She would have been known as "Lady Baillie" during the life of her husband, and as "Olive, Lady Baillie" or "The Dowager Lady Baillie" (the older form) after his death, when their son succeeded. Since she was also the daughter of a baron or viscount, she could be styled "The Honourable Lady Baillie" if we are to give her full style.

Here are sources on the lady herself:

• http://www.london4seniors.com/html/lady__baillie.html] her father was Lord Queenborough. Please note that the page itself calls her "Olive, Lady Baillie" quite correctly.
• article on her son

[1] which gives no style for her.

For courtesy titles, please see the relevant [Courtesy titles in the United Kingdom|Wikipedia article], or check out these sources

• Whitaker's Peerage (1918)
• A History of the Baronetage (1900)

"A Baronet, on the other hand, received a title from the King which was passed on to succeeding generations through a direct Male heir, and was known as Sir (Sir Walter Elliot). Though his son might succeed him as Baronet, his children received no special designation (thus Miss Elliot, Miss Anne Elliot, etc.) His wife would be styled Lady ------, using the family surname instead of a place designation, as there was none. "

Burke's and Debrett's also have details.

The fashion in the British media for the wives of knights and baronets to be called "Lady [christian name][family name] is not only wrong (by custom and usage, as well as by precedent) but also confusing.

Here is the result of a search under "Olive, Lady Baillie" which found 222 results.

Here is the result of a search under "Lady Baillie" which also includes other Ladies Baillie. Using Leeds to narrow the results, I found 390 results. If you think the latter style "Lady Baillie" more accurately reflects how she was known and would be easily identified, please go ahead and correct the name.

However, most Wikipedia articles seem to use Christian names (and often family names) to distinguish one titled person from another.

Sincerely wikibiohistory (talk) 14:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that the article should be under the title Olive Cecilia Baillie, per the title of the article on the late Queen Mother. Mjroots (talk) 08:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Some more sources for Olive, Lady Baillie and her family

• Details of her father, stepmother, and younger siblings
• BBC article on Leeds Castle which calls her "Hon Lady Olive Cecilia Baillie" (incorrectly) and "Lady Baillie" correctly.
• Cave auction 1984, New York Times on the auction of Mrs Pauline Cave's collection - she was the younger daughter of Olive, Lady Baillie, on whom the New York Times writes: "Mrs. Cave's father was Thomas Winn, a World War I aviator and the first husband of Lady Baillie; Lady Baillie was the daughter of Lord Queensboro and Pauline Whitney, and the grandaughter of William C. Whitney, a Secretary of the Navy. Lady Baillie acquired her title with her third husband, Sir Adrian Baillie." The title of the grandfather Lord Queenborough is misspelt, unfortunately.

Unfortunately, online sources tend to contradict each other, but the New York Times is reasonably accurate when it comes to Lady Baillie's style (if not the spelling of the title of her father Lord Queenborough).

Hope this helps. wikibiohistory (talk) 14:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Her Father's activities in the US

The source notes "engaging in ranch life and farming in the Northwest, and afterward lived in New York." and while this is not incorrect it uses an older meaning of the geographical term Northwest stemming from the time of the Northwest Territory, an area now known as the Midwest. Specifically her father lived in Iowa and Minnesota, far from the modern definition of the Northwest US. How could this historical terminology change be best explained in article? 75.134.137.162 (talk) 14:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)