Talk:Ontario Highway 407/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Photos

FYI: Just came here for research, but I removed the photo of the ETR offices. The article doesn't mention them as it focuses on the highway itself. I don't like that other photo either though because it doesn't show anything specific to this highway. A good photo for this article would have an on-ramp or some singage. If people wanted to see what a regular, boring highway looked like they would look at the Highway article. Riiiight? --Mrtea 01:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

A few changes

A number of changes were made to update the plate denial legal battles and to remove completely false information. For example, the highway is forced to meet provincial safety standards, there is no clause in the agreement preventing the Government from building competing routes, etc. That information is simply wrong.--Fairweathergta 03:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Facilities

  • Are the bridges really necessary?
  • Should the listed Maintenence Yards be noted by distance markers??

Bacl-presby 23:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Out of province billing?

With respect to out-of-province drivers on the 407 -- the article notes that several surrounding states (and Quebec) allow access to their driver databases for billing purposes. Do these governments also practice plate denial if said bills aren't paid?

--Plane nutz 15:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

This paragraph needs to be removed

"Another billing problem is a lack of consolidated account information. For example, an account is only created and maintained if a driver uses a transponder. However if the transponder does not always operate ideally, an automatic plate identification will result in a "Video Toll Charge". This then creates a separate account, all of the additional costs required to maintain the separate account. Drivers with transponders will think they only have one account, which they pay and keep up-to-date, when in fact they have two, because of transponder malfunction. The second account rapidly mounts up fines due to non-payment, as the driver is unaware."

This is really more due to user carelessness than the 407's fault. The typical 407 vehicle operator has already driven on the 407 before, thus creating their plate account number, which can then be assigned to a transponder. Even if their transponder has some other account number (mine doesn't), it will be clearly marked on the bill.

Agreed. 24.150.251.130 01:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Questions and Comments re Description Section

Some (most) of this is very minor, but may help improve the article.

- - -

"The original section of Highway 407, between Highway 410 and Highway 404, is one of the better-designed freeways in the province of Ontario because of its recent design."

This sentence raises (in my mind at least) the question of why the later sections, of even MORE recent design, are not among "the better-designed freeways in the province of Ontario".

- - -

"It was the first highway in almost thirty years since Highway 427 to be surfaced with concrete..." The first Ontario highway ???

- - -

"which despite involving a costlier initial investment," How about: "which despite higher initial cost,"

- - -

"lasts significantly longer and has better reflective capabilities (although motorists have a noisier ride)." Putting the disadvantages in parentheses makes it read like a commercial, IMHO.

- - -

"Ontario styled asphalt wearing surface" What does Ontario styled mean?

- - -

"some sections of the 407 are paved with asphalt instead of concrete since these sections opened much later " Why so, if concrete is better overall? Or was it decided that it was not better overall?

- - -

"only 4 lamps are needed" 4 per mast, presumably.

- - -

"The 407 (along with other recent suburban and rural Ontario freeways) has been designed with aesthetics in mind," The part in parentheses seems like a commercial. Is there a reference about the aesthetics? Having driven the highway, my general impression is that it was intended to be clear, flat, easy to plow, designed for unobstructed vision. The idea that it was aesthetic in any way had never occurred to me.

- - - Wanderer57 21:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Safety Concerns - Deletion of paragraph suggested

This paragraph sounds like it was written by someone with an axe to grind with the 407 organization. No references from the Geometric Design Standards for Ontario Highways are quoted and I cannot for the life of me understand the comment about conversion of a dual exit lane in Mississauga.

Regarding the Temporary Concrete Barrier use, I have to say that the original designers did not quite think things through on how to protect the median during each and every phase of the staged freeway widenings. The temporary concrete barrier is quite a safe and cost effective solution to the whole idea of staged median widenings.

And what's wrong with uding asphalt on the east and west extensions? If asphalt is bad then why is it used on millions of km of roadway to begin with?

I suggest this paragraph get deleted:

"Since the lease of the highway's operation, there has been a noticeable decrease in design standards, including straight-sided overpass structures (rather than the sloped design common on most provincial highways), the conversion of dual exit lanes to an exit lane and an additional travel lane in Mississauga rather than paying to widen the carriageway and maintaining two exit lanes, the reduction of the central median and the use of temporary concrete barriers rather than maintaining the median width, and the use of asphalt paving rather than concrete on the Burlington to Mississauga and Markham to Pickering sections. The freeway still adheres to minimum provincial government highway safety standards."

--142.242.34.248 20:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes this paragraph is biased. It should be removed.
I think the comment about a dual-lane exit being removed is referring to 407 westbound to Hurontario. It used to have what seemed to be, though untrue, two dedicated right lanes that exited to the ramp. However, this was only because the through lanes of the highway narrowed down from three to two at Hurontario. Now that the highway is four lanes all the way through that area, there was no need to have two lanes exiting to Hurontario and that is proven well by my daily observation -- there is no bottleneck there at afternoon rush hour.
My daily observation of the temporary concrete median is that it has been extremely effective against hard collisions. It actually gives a bit, so that lessens the force of impact, which is a safety benefit. I have never seen gaps broken into it, and if gaps ever did occur, they can repair them very quickly. And besides, the only reason they installed these was to allow quick reconfiguration as they continued to add lanes (something by the way that this article does little to emphasize). As I write this, there still is room for one more lane -- in fact, the concrete is already poured, so in principle, that lane is already existing. To open that lane, all 407 needs to do is build a permanent concrete median on the centreline, fill in the inside shoulders with asphalt and safety grooving, and remove the temporary median. I see some small signs of engineering work being done already hinting that this will come very soon. Also, saying "rather than maintaining the median width" suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong with narrowing the median. If anything else, it is this statement that clearly shows the author's bias. The median was designed from the beginning to have enough room for lane additions!
I would love to hear of a specific true bad example of a straight-edged bridge. These bridges can still be built with slopes and curves as long as they are not excessive. The technology is even used by MTO. The Mavis Rd and 401 bridge is a very good example -- and that was built by MTO. (So why single out and fault the 407?)
The criticism of using asphalt is also very stretched. Sure, it is cheaper than concrete. However, you must remember that the Burlington to Missisauga stretch was engineered by MTO (originally intended to be their own Highway 403), not by 407, and 407 was simply complying to the design specifications! (407 would never have designed that stretch the way it is currently laid out, that is, without a wide median and no provision for future lighting.) Plus, in the concrete sections of 407 where they had recently added lanes, the added lanes were done in concrete as well, proving they're willing to spend the money to maintain a uniform road surface.
Jstreutker (talk) 21:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Question re Safety Concerns section

"Since the lease of the highway's operation, there has been a noticeable decrease in design standards,"

Seems to me a decrease in design standards relates to construction, not to operation. ???

Also, was it leased or sold? Elsewhere in the article, it says "sale". Wanderer57 21:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The highway was leased for 99 years. From my point of view, it was effectively sold, as I'll never see the end of the lease. But legally, it is a lease.--Plane nutz 20:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
In all fairness your opinion that it was "sold" reflects bias. After 99 years the roadway reverts to the Ontario Government and therefor it is legally a lease. The article has been edited to remove bias and reflect the true nature of the business agreement. --Eja2k (talk) 21:38, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Construction and development

Perhaps a new section detailing some of the issues surrounding construction and development could be included. For example, a mention that it passes over the Trafalgar Moraine (and whether any environmentalists etc. opposed its construction there) may be warranted. I don't have any info about this, but thought I'd toss the suggestion to interested editors. Mindmatrix 16:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

There are already a dozen too many sections on this article. There should be five, and the rest should be subsections of the first three:
  1. Route description (basically describing the highway from west to east, but also covering the electronic system, the cameras, lighting, pavement, etc.)
  2. History (covering construction and development, the purchase by 407 Consortium, toll controversies, and anything else that isn't a physical feature of the highway.)
  3. Future (covering future plans, including 407 east)
  4. Exit list
  5. Services (would cover fleet, tolls, and emergency response services)
I've already started a rewrite of this one, but it will be a long time coming. The 407 is not one of my favourite highways. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
What I meant was "section or subsection"; all I was suggesting was that the material be considered for inclusion in the future. Mindmatrix 16:14, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Unanswered question

The article states that for vehicles without transponders, plate recognition retrieves information from the Ontario Ministry of Transport. Does this mean that if a car with Alberta or Saskatchewan plates -- or Ohio or Nevada plates -- uses the road, they aren't charged? Presumably the Ontario MOT doesn't have access to names and addresses out of province. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 21:11, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


It's "MTO", for Ministry of Transportation, Ontario. 407 ETR has certain reciprocity agreements with various states and provinces. The signs along the way highway stating "Non-Ontario Plates Will Be Billed" aren't telling the whole story. 216.221.64.101 (talk) 20:37, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Not a provincial highway.

Before anyone goes and reverts back, they may want to check out the Highway 407 Act, Section 12(2) which specifically states, and I quote:

Not King’s Highway (2) Despite any designation under section 36 of the Public Transportation and Highway Improvement Act, Highway 407 is not part of the King’s Highway. 1998, c. 28, s. 12 (2).

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_98h28_e.htm

Now, despite this, Section 12(3) and 12(4) specifically state that as far as regulations go, it's still considered a "highway" (note - not a provincial King's Highway) and that the Highway Traffic Act fully applies to it.

I will be including a line about this in the article, and referencing the specific section of law. I would appreciate it if people don't revert it back to incorrect information with King's Highway shields and lines about the provincial government maintaining the highway, which is blatantly wrong.

Snickerdo (talk) 03:20, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I understand if Highway 407 is not is the provincial highway system, however all other highways at least are still legally and by style referred to as Provincial Highway X. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 04:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
No, they're not. They're legally titled "King's Highway X" as per Section 1(1) of the Highway Traffic Act. If you're going to include the legal name and the common name, it's only logical to refer to them as King's Highway X, and then the common name afterward. The phrase "Provincial Highway" is never used by any government organization or in day-to-day common usage. I put more information on your :talk page.
Snickerdo (talk) 04:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I'll see if I can find more info. The HTA is rather ld and many newer acts use different terminology. In addition, the phrase "The King's Highway" has been removed from new shields put up by the MTO. I'll continue converting them to "King's Highway X" in the interim. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:13, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
The legend was removed from the shields to make the signs more bilingual. They are all part of TKH network, despite the nomenclature mostly being reserved to the HTA. 216.221.64.101 (talk) 20:40, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

POV

Removed uncited POV from the Article. 74.210.28.50 (talk) 16:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Any use for this photo?

To showcase the left-exiting issue. I think it has more detail than the current image but it's from 'street level'. If yes I'll gladly upload it to wikipedia. http://www.flickr.com/photos/haljackey/7192149194/ Haljackey (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Dealing with the 2015 toll rates

With the updated toll rates this year also came several changes to the way the tolls are determined, which would make for a very complicated table. I'm thinking that moving forward it may be best to exclude heavy vehicle information and only include passenger vehicle rates, perhaps with a note that mentions heavy vehicle tolls can be found on the official website. Any thoughts on this? - Floydian τ ¢ 18:24, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Wrong Bills

There are a lot of reports of 407 sending wrong bills to people for no reason and then 407 denies it. Why isn't there anything of that in the article? 99.247.60.143 (talk) 14:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC) Dear Sir: My son finished his summer army's job at Ontario. He left home at Sept first 2018, he go back BC Vancouver. before he left home he ask me send back the box back to 407 6300 Steeles Ave west Woodbridge. My son call me before Sept 27 send otherwise will re-bill payment. Yes, I did, drove all the way directed to 407 office. At service desk i gave the 407 box, the lady said drop the box, her finger point the box. I have to open the door open as mall box door drop in. I ask the service lady how do you know i returned back my box? She took the scanner do as scanner the box back the code bar. I said OK. Today I got bill payment. Why waste time waste the money ask me payment again? Who work check this box person? My son's account number:876205157. I take phone call, no one pick up the phone. I, my son's mum only believe the service made a wrong bill payment again. Please I need help. When stop the snow I will drive to there office find the lady who ask me drop the box and go. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.82.210 (talk) 23:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Removing the $100 billion claim

The claim that the cost of the land is $104 billion is laughable considering land was expropriated for ±$60,000 per acre at the time. Here are a few expropriations: http://www.expropriationdecisions.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Mikalda-omb.pdf http://www.blg.com/en/expropriation/Documents/AssociationPaperJan3004.pdf

Even using plain math it is way out of line. The highway is 107.2 km, with 500 foot ROW http://www.mah.gov.on.ca/AssetFactory.aspx?did=5464

That equals 4,037 acres. $104 billion / 4037 acres = $25,761,704 per acre... that's downtown Toronto 2012 prices, not farmland on the outskirts in 1970s-1990s prices.

I think this claim should be removed entirely. The person in the Hansard quote is speaking to something other than the land price, and we don't have the source document he is referring to know what the $104 billion is actually referring to.

I've restored this. It is backed by a reliable secondary source, and is a quoted figure. Editorial opinion is nice and all for writing style, but irrelevant in the case of a figure. - Floydian τ ¢ 02:33, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
I dunno, I'm pretty dubious about that figure. Where the heck would the ontario government get $100B, then sell it (well lease it) for $3B?

Also where's the secondary source you mentioned? Could we say a "claimed Value" of $100 billion?Feldercarb (talk) 00:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

the MPP in question does not state in the quote (from 1998) that this $104 billion was the cost of the 407 - he is (roughly) alluding to the entire value of outstanding provincial government debt (page 15 internal, see ref). the sum of their liabilities by the end of that year was ~$114 billion. page 39 (internal) of this provincial statement of accounts from 1998 makes it clear that the assets of the crown corp that owned 407 at the time (OTC) were nowhere near that amount (roughly $1.9 billion). the claim is a misreading of the MPP's statement. [1]

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Ontario Highway 407/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zanimum (talk · contribs) 18:44, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


Now this is a meaty roads article!

To open, you need to cleanup the references, many are bare links. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, to be honest, given how long I've had another article at GAN, I figured I'd have a few days to finish my work before the review began. I still have to finish the controversy section, and as you pointed out, many of the refs have you to be filled out. Give me a day or two. - Floydian τ ¢ 19:20, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
As an update, I'm nearly there. Refs are mostly done. Feel free to read over everything but the controversy section of the article at this point, as I'm done working on the other sections. Cheers, Floydian τ ¢ 00:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
@Zanimum: Alright, she's good to go! - Floydian τ ¢ 15:19, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Ontario Highway 407/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Rschen7754 (talk · contribs) 05:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


Standard disclaimer that I'm including some stuff that isn't necessarily in the GA criteria since I know you want to go further with this article.

  • 1 dablink, 1 link that self-redirects.
  • Not sure if I deleted the self-redirect, but I can't find it... could you point it out for me? Dablink is fixed. - Floydian τ ¢ 05:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
  • The tool says there is one, but I can't find it either... wouldn't worry about it. --Rschen7754 05:34, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
  • 3 dead links.
  • Map could use a caption, and GIS sources.
  • Just gotta do these still - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Lead
  • distances calculated electronically. -> are calculated electronically
  • The lead is a bit long for the length of the article.
  • The central sections of Highway 407 opened 1997, between Highway 401 and Highway 404. -> opened in 1997 (if you're keeping the sentence at all)
  • Fixed the first bit and condensed the lede significantly - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Route description
  • six lane -> six-lane
  • greenspace - ?
  • Undeveloped land "reserved" from urban development. I've linked the first instance of the term. - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
  • east of which subdivisions line the south side - what sort of subdivisions?
  • Specified residential subdivisions - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
  • the highway straightens parallel to Dundas Street - word missing
  • Hmmm... thought that read fine like that, but I've made it "...straightens and travels parallel..." - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Second paragraph: two consecutive sentences start with It
  • four lane
  • immerses - not sure if that's the right word
  • Switched to "enters the urban GTA" - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
  • is weaved - doesn't seem right
  • Any suggestions? I've switched it to the adverb "interwoven", which is the best/simplest way to describe the layout. - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Tolls
  • without the need for toll booth intermediaries - could be more clear
  • I just removed that part, kind of redundant to the second sentence preceding it. - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
  • against the requests of the province - the government? the people?
History
  • narrows into - merges into?
    Markham road narrows from four lanes into the two-laned Main Street north of the 407... but since its being widened to four lanes, I just reworded this completely. - Floydian τ ¢ 05:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


Should be a pass after these issues are resolved. --Rschen7754 06:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm loading this up to work on offline. Hopefully I'll have the changes made within a few days, but I'm going to kindly request that a leeway of the usual seven day limit be made due to my limited internet access. - Floydian τ ¢ 19:59, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Not a problem. --Rschen7754 00:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Just gotta deal with the deadlinks and map sources at this point. - Floydian τ ¢ 05:15, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
It seems that somebody changed one of the citation templates so that chapter= somewhere is invalid... won't hold up the GA over this, but just FYI. --Rschen7754 05:34, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Looks like section is invalid in cite news. There's a post regarding this in the template talk page, so I'm not sure if there is any progress on this error. All the other issues raised have been dealt with. Sorry for the delays :) Cheers, Floydian τ ¢ 02:33, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect information in History Section

I'm not a regular editor on Wikipedia, so I don't want to touch the article myself, but the history section incorrectly states that it was Peterson's government that decided to employ a P3 model for the construction of phase 1. It was actually the NDP Government of Bob Rae that pursued the P3. Also, there should be some mention of the Ontario Transportation Capital Corporation, the Crown Corp. the NDP created to facilitated the P3 and oversee Hwy 407. The definitive source on Hwy 407's initial development is Mylvaganam and Borins book "If you build it..." Business, Government and Ontario's Electronic Toll Highway. [2] They provide a detailed account of the history behind the first phase of Hwy 407.50.71.236.119 (talk) 22:58, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Untitled

Lots of Information can be found at www.407etr.com and I'm going to add a link to it from this page. That's where I got the 108km number from. The term freeway defines whether or not the highway is a free-flowing system where there are no crossroads. It does not mean that the highway is necessarily free to use. The term "Pay-per-Use Freeway" best defines the 407. Snickerdo


IMHO the 407 should connect to the 401 in the east Pellaken 01:10, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

By the time it hits 35/115, it will be pretty far north. Its supposed to meet just north of Orono. -Fizscy46 03:44, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Reasons for move: Hwy 407 is not provincially maintained. Earl Andrew 18:03, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Automatic number plate recognition

I was reading Automatic number plate recognition and thought of the 407. I didn't see any links between the articles, but I would assume that the 407 uses this technology, as it's supposed to be all digital. Anybody know? Greba 19:37, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If the system works without cars having to have a transponder (as it must in order to be effective) then it must use ANPR. I've worked that into the article. violet/riga (t) 21:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

407E - New article or not?

Given the complex nature of the future extensions, I figured I'd seek input on whether a second article, Ontario Highway 407E, is worth considering given the planned opening of the extension in the next three months. - Floydian τ ¢ 01:13, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

I haven't gotten any input on this. I will wait until I find some time, which may be a few days or a few weeks. If nobody has raised any objections I will move forward with splitting. - Floydian τ ¢ 20:09, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't see a good case for a separate article. The whole highway is a single logical entity, it's just that one part of it is leased to a different operator. BLAIXX 03:23, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
I oppose the creation of an article for the same reason as Blaixx. Also, the province doesn't even refer to it as 407 East anymore. Username6892 14:20, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Land Cost

How much did Ontario Taxpayers pay to purchase the land for the 407? What's the current Land Value? How is this recorded on the Provinces books? Asset or Liability? Is their a Buyback clause in the Lease? Mbarran67 (talk) 11:46, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

"Freeway"

In North America the word "Freeway" is usually restricted to limited access highways with no tolls. So the New York State Thruway, the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and the Massachusetts Turnpike, would be referred to as such, while the word "Freeway" would be restricted to those highways which do not collect tolls in order to qualify for US federal government construction and maintenance subsidies. So Ontario Highway 407 is an expressway and a limited access highway, but I find referring to a road with tolls as "freeway" misleading. Jamescobban (talk) 05:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Canadian English has the same distinction – possibly because there are so few toll roads in Canada. In Ontario at least, freeways and expressways are synonyms and the 407 is a freeway. BLAIXX 15:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Buyback

Is there a Buyback clause? Can the Lease be cancelled and What's the penalty? Mbarran67 (talk) 17:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  1. ^ https://collections.ola.org/ser/15767/1997-1998/Financials.pdf
  2. ^ https://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-ca/books/if-you-build-it-business/9780772786166-item.html?ikwsec=Books&ikwidx=0
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