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Q: Why is the attack not marked as a "Hamas victory" or "Israeli victory"?
A: After a long discussion involving over 40 editors, it was decided that the result of the attack has no consensus. In the discussion, there was a split consensus for the attack being a "Hamas victory" and for the attack's result being "Inconclusive".
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I believe a more fitting title for this article would be "The October 7th Attack" being that it's much more rememberable and easy to say. JamesCook1728 (talk) 01:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I am able to move the page. I will not until there is consensus. NesserWiki (talk) 03:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should use the name that Hamas gave it since it is the only “operation name”, which is the “operation Al aqsa flood” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:23, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More neutral sources seem to avoid adopting that name. I'm not sure exactly why, but I assume it has to do with not wanting to legitimize the attack, or create an appearance of alignment with Hamas. — xDanielxT/C\R 22:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only reasons I can see using the Hamas given name is the lack of other “official” names for the attack (maybe invasion? Not sure of it counts) and because of such a large-scale, never seen before type of attack which too everyone by surprise being the first “invasion” into Israel since the 1948 The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Requested move 26 May 2024
2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October attack – The obvious common name here is the 7 October/October 7 attacks. On Google, there are 117,000 results for "Hamas-led attack on Israel" (even less if you include the year), 252,000 for "7 October attacks" and 1,600,000 for "October 7 attack". October 7 and 7 October even are used by themselves as shorthands for the attack. Ex: "What Really Happened on October 7?" (1), "How Changes in the Israeli Military Led to the Failure of October 7" (2), "October 7th: Through Their Eyes" (3).
It is clear that the name involves "October 7" or some variation + "attack". Of course, October 7th has a higher search rate because of the American date format, but in my opinion, we shouldn't name it that.The attack happened in Israel, and in Israel the format is dmy. An example of this is the 7 July 2005 London bombings. In American media, the attack was referred to as the July 7 bombings. Ex: "July 7 2005 London Bombings Fast Facts" (1), "London Marks the 10th Anniversary of the July 7 Terrorist Attacks" (2). But the article name is 7 July, because that's what the format is in the U.K. I think the same principle should be applied here. Personisinsterest (talk) 23:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Already been discussed. Do you have any new arguments? JDiala (talk) 01:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this may be viable at this point in time. As some time has passed since the last request, a somewhat clearer picture of sourcing has emerged IMO. FortunateSons (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Edit request - minor correction needed for totals in article and infobox
In the last month, 2 Israeli civilians that were believed to have been taken hostage on Oct. 7 were later declared dead after their remains were identified in Israel.[1][2] Therefore, the total number of Israelis killed on Oct. 7 needs to be updated to 1,145 and the total number of those taken hostage needs to be reduced to 251. Nathan1223 (talk) 03:17, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, very willing to have Wiki rules thrown at me on this;
Why are we still describing this as an “attack”? By the vast and overwhelming sources already cited in this article, it’s very clear that, where “attack” might imply some sort of targeted assault by one armed group against other, this is not what happened.
Given that this historical parallel doesn’t work, the closest I can think of is the roaming Einsatzgruppen, whose methods of murder were utterly terrible but also less terrible than the Palestinians responsible in this article.
“Attack” suggests that this was some sort of properly co-ordinated military operation. We know from every article sub-linked here that this was not the acse. it was from the start intended to be a massacre of civilians. There was no point anywhere in the planning of it in which anyone said that “this should not be a massacre of civilians.” And why would they? The whole point was to murder, rape and kidnap as many civilians as possible. KronosAlight (talk) 21:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would you suggest something with "massacre" in the title? I think there's probably a reasonable case that "massacre" is accurate (despite that some military bases were also targeted), but it seems very clear that the broader term "attack" is accurate, so why not stick with it?
In terms of policy, WP:POVNAMING and WP:NPOVNAME encourage "neutral" names, though with exceptions when there's a very clear WP:COMMONNAME (which I don't think there is here).
Massacre is too broad for October 7. This is like naming the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip a massacre. Yes, there were massacres, but there were also genuine military confrontations, such as in Beit Hanoun, khan yunis, shujaiyya. Likewise on October 7 there were several confrontations such as Hamas wiping out the border guard, as well as battles in sderot and ofakim, seizing military bases. The whole operation itself can be called an attack as a massacre is too broad, and the massacres themselves, such as Re’im, obviously retain their names The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There were several military targets that were neutralised on October 7, which is how Hamas were even able to reach the civilians in the first place. All of the border crossing outposts were captured and soldiers in there killed or captured, all the kibbutzim who were overrun had their military bases captured (such as Re’im and be’eri), 370 out of 1,100 killed were soldiers on the field, there is a very significant military aspect on October 7 that cannot be overlooked but when we look into the individual cases we can make the distinction, which is why Nahal oz who was captured and had its military bases defeated, with most of the people being killed being soldiers is named an “attack”, while Re’im, where 360 festival goers were shot dead is labeled a “massacre” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:07, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mohammed deif speech
Should the Mohammed deif speech, or excerpts from it, be included in the background? His October 7 speech does summarise all the ‘justifications’ comprehensively, and I believe it is worth mentioning or including, and in fact it was there for a while The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is covered in Israel–Hamas_war#Hamas_motivations, so I would either link to that section of use the excerpt feature. Obviously we should strike a balance between Hamas justifications and the reasons for the attack according to experts. Alaexis¿question? 07:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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