Talk:Order of battle for the Battle of the Somme

Royal Flying Corps

This ORBAT is incomplete. I'm not a Wikipedia editor but the source you want is Jones, "War in the Air", which is available on line. 4th Army was supported by 4th Brigade, which in turn was composed of 3rd (Corps) Wing with mostly observer aircraft and 14th (Army) Wing which was mainly fighter planes ("scouts" in the RFC terminology of the time.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.157.114 (talk) 13:40, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Unknown Divisions

I do not know under which Corps the following divisions served. Any assistance would be appreciated. Farawayman (talk) 11:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Corps data found. Added into article.Farawayman (talk) 13:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Source/ANZAC Corps

Hi. Looking good so far. I have Gary Sheffield's The Somme, which includes the OOBs up to divisional level. Unfortunately, for some reason he does not group the divisions by Corps so I can't help with your question. Sorry. Even Ross Mallet's very comprehensive 1st AIF OOB site is silent on the subject in regards to Australian divisions

I decided to try to do it this way, because I have not found any website or book (amongst those I have) which gives the breakdown per Corps formation as a true Army Group OOB. One has to do a bit of detective work! The French and German OOB's have even less data!Farawayman (talk) 19:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

One question springs to mind about the Australian divisions, though. You have the five divisions grouped under 'ANZAC Corps'. Is this correct? My understanding is that in 1916 there were two Australian/New Zealand corps, 'I ANZAC Corps' and 'II ANZAC Corps', with the five Australian Divisions and one New Zealand division moving between the two at various stages (just to make your life hard). I think (not sure though) that it was 1st, 2nd and 4th Div in I Anzac and 3rd (arriving in France at the end of 1916), 5th and NZ Div in II Anzac (the 4th Div and NZ Div swapped around June-July 1916, as NZ Div was originally I ANZAC Corps and 4th Div belonged to II ANZAC before they changed). In November 1917 the five Australian divisions were grouped together to form the 'Australian Corps', while NZ Div became part of British XXII Corps.

I have more than one source which cites the NZ Division as being allocated to the British XV Corps on 1 July 1916 (See [[1]] for one such on-line reference). It is quite possible that they were later moved back to the ANZAC Corps (without them, it would have been an Australian Corps!). The problem is that an OOB is like a balance sheet – it should always be preceded with “Order of Battle as at xxxxxxxx” to make it accurate. But here we are dealing with a campaign which lasted 4 to 5 months, which makes things tricky!

I concur on there being two ANZAC Corps – but again, its an issue of dates. I suspect that I ANZAC Corps shipped to France containing 1st Aus, 2nd Aus, 4th Aus Div’s and II ANZAC shipped as 5th Aus and 1 NZ Div’s. On deployment to the Somme, 1 NZ Div was allocated to XV Corps and as this left 5th Aus Div as the only Division in II ANZAC Corps, they were amalgamated with I ANZAC. When the NZ Div was released from XV Corps, they returned to II ANZAC along with the 5th Aus Div. 3rd Aus Div later joined II ANZAC. Then the NZ Div was removed again, and the ANZAC Corps was abolished with all Aus Div’s forming one formation – the 1st Australian Corps. Your views? Farawayman (talk) 19:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, mate. Yes, that certainly sounds possible. I ran into problems when try to expand I Anzac Corps to the extent that I decided not to include an order of battle. Although I'm considering making one for illustrative purposes e.g. "as at xyz time" as you mentioned above. I might even use to lay out and mark-up that you've spent so much work on (as I think it looks very professional), that is if you don't mind of course. — AustralianRupert (talk) 05:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure, use the templates as required. No problem with that. Farawayman (talk) 07:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, mate.— AustralianRupert (talk) 07:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The divisions were detached a lot, though, so sometimes there could be between two to four divisions in either I Anzac or II Anzac. So unfortunately the situation is difficult to say the least. Good luck with it, though! — AustralianRupert (talk) 14:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi again. I have just found this source. It might help, but then again it might make things even more confusing! — AustralianRupert (talk) 09:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

There was no state called "Dominion" so why are British forces not listed together?Keith-264 (talk) 15:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Chart of Order of Battle

The chart of the ORBAT for 1 July for 4th Army is excellent by III Corps is listed twice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.64.148 (talk) 20:10, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I've looked at the article and don't see such duplication. Could you be more specific? Dhtwiki (talk) 22:05, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

French forces

Why are French forces treated as an afterthought? There is virtually no ToE for France. Is it because of a lack of sources or the Anglocentrism that typically characterizes discussion of the Western Front? The only reason British forces outnumbered the French at the Somme is that France had been hammered at Verdun for five months prior. 97.83.21.237 (talk) 22:53, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Its a quite old article that reflects the availability of sources. The Anglocentrism that has spoilt English-language writing about the Western Front and the Somme is far less marked now than it was in Wiki, which you can see if you look at the sources for the Somme and 3rd Ypres articles. It remains a work in progress. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)