Talk:Orion (mythology)/Archive 4

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Um...

This article is so what can go wrong with Wikipedia.

It needs to be completely replaced:

1. Brief introduction describing Orion as a Greek divine figure of a certain type.

2. Section: "Etymology". A brief and scientific statement on possible etymologies, all of which are uncertain.

3. Section: "Mythology". A summary of each classical Orion myth, with the classical source cited.

4. Section: "Modern Mythography". A brief, coherent, and objective statement of each major modern "interpretation" of the Orion figure, with the modern author cited. It should not take the position that any of these theories are fact, and should clarify which are feminist interpretations, etc.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.222.232 (talk) 08:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Can someone sort this out?

I would but I know nothing about Orion, hence I came here; and found some meandering speculative essay in poor English.

I agree with the writer above.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.179.83.87 (talk) 13:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Critique, part one

Orion (Greek Ὠρίων),

The above is about the only factual statement in the whole article.

a Titan

Orion is not a Titan. This was already pointed out above.

<ref>"His name was rightly associated with [[Otus|Otos]] and [[Ephialtes]], the Aloadai." (Kerenyi, 1951, p. 201, noting ''Odyssey'' 11.310. </ref>

This is opinion, not fact; it's a pseudo-reference that does nothing to support the statement, as Otus and Ephialtes were giants, not Titans. This kind of b.s. "reference" continues through the article.

provided the archetype of the primordial hunter in Greek culture.

Archetypes belong to psychology, not mythology. And what is "primordial" about Orion? This is pseudo-scientific claptrap, windy verbiage disguising an absence of fact and advertising a fuzziness of thought.

<ref>""[[Heracles|Herakles]], if one wanted to emphasise the 'culture-hero' element in him, would become at most a hunting hero, an enemy of wild beasts, an Orion, though Orion too was something more than that." (Kerenyi 1959 p. 12).</ref>

Another spurious, irrelevant "reference".

Orion was beloved of Eos, the Dawn, and was slain by Artemis, who set him in the sky.

This is one version of the story. It does a disservice to proclaim it as _the_ version.

In modern interpretations Orion ("mountain man" if the name is truly Greek) exists on three mythic planes.

Here begins an astounding farrago of meaninglessness. "Three mythic planes"? This is mumbo-jumbo and absolutely unencyclopedic.

On the Neolithic level he is a shaman, the "master of the animals," an Aegean counterpart to Enkidu, the wild companion of Sumerian/Babylonian Gilgamesh.

Neolithic? We know nothing about the myths of the (illiterate) New Stone Age. Enkidu, however, was certainly not among them. This is nonsense.

On the Minoan level, he has been dedicated to the Great Goddess of Crete.

More nonsense. While we have Minoan-era writings, they are non-mythological and Orion is not mentioned among them.

On the Classical level, he has become a threat to the reformed and Olympian Artemis and must be destroyed.

There is finally some vague allusion to the Orion myth here, but it is opinion and not fact.

His myth survives only in fragmentary episodes and references

Not really true, but convenient for someone like Graves who likes to "recreate" myths that never existed to support his own agenda.

and its meanings were obscure to the patriarchal culture of classical Greece and need some explaining. Orion's journeys may be traced on a map.

The kind of "explaining" given in this article we do not need. It is wholesale invention.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by RandomCritic (talk • contribs) 14:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

References

Resolved
  • Rene Char
  • Cicero's Aratea, and Aratus
  • Orion and Side, in Ovid.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmanderson (talk • contribs) 02:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Please consider Orion - uriaş - uri

Looking comparatively with another Indo-European language, in this case Romanian, we find a word similar to Orion: "uriaş" which means "giant" [4]. Interestingly, the word for giant is linked in a number of ways with hunger: in a substratum related language, Albanian ( Origin of the Albanians ) "uri" means "hunger" [5]; compare to the wikipedia entry for a Jotunn “glutton” giant, where we find the Old Norse term [Þu]“risi”, and the futhark rune Thurisaz Þ; this thematic link of giants (“rephaim” in Hebrew [6]) and hunger is also found in the Book of Enoch chapter XV. ... 11. “And the spirits of the giants ... cause trouble: they take no food, ⌈but nevertheless hunger⌉ and thirst, and cause offences.” [7]”; also the giant weilding his hammer/club/ass’ jawbone to bring rain and end hunger, such as "Urion" Orion (mythology) chasing the rainmaking Pleiades. Gabrieli 14:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC) The giant rainmaker drops his jaw-bone from the sky as a thunderbolt, just as the "bearded vulture" (Zagan in Romanian) - the eagle-like symbol of the "Zeus"-type giant drops the stone-age jaw-bone/sickle/falx. The jaw-bone with which he had also castrated the father bull Saturn/Taurus/Ata-uri-us, see also Hyginus' mention of Orion chasing Taurus. This ties in with the parent bull's hide birth theme and giant-birthing genital fluids (possibly from the castration) in the Orion myth. The death of Orion by the Scorpion is perhaps symbolical of the constellational attribution change of the bearded eagle (bearded Zeus/Odin/Orion weilding a [curved] weapon) symbology to the Scorpio constellation (with a curved 'tail'), note the opposite positions in the sky of Taurus from Scorpio, the opposition of the Father/Son; Saturn/Jupiter; Saturday/Wednesday; Uranus/Cronus or Cronus/Zeus [repetition of theme]. Again the rainmaking giant weilding a sickle theme ties in with fertility and harvests, and the sacrifice of the [celestial] bull (e.g. for honouring Zeus, who incidentally was hidden shortly afer his birth on the island of the bull-worshippers, to later defeat his father the 'horned god'). A parallel may be drawn with the giant Gilgamesh [Orion] slaying the Bull of Heaven [Taurus] which was a gift from 'Father' Anu [Saturn/Uranus "Ata-Uri-Anu"] to his daughter Inana [Ululu/El/Venus, subsequent ruler of Taurus, possibly due to precession of the equinoxes necessitating a change in the stories of the constellations]. Gabrieli (talk) 10:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)Studying the Taurus aspect, consider the aurochs (Bos ursus [1]) reported as being called "uri" by Julius Caesar in 6.28 of "De bello gallico" [2] see also Ur (rune). These uri were found throughout the Hercynian forest which stretches along the Ister (Danube) from the Helvetii to Dacia - (possibly related etymology of Dacia/Deutsch/Dutch). Cicero in Verr. iv.57 refers to a Jupiter Urius of the Greeks (therefore Zeus Urius) as "the sender of favourable wind" [3]. Gabrieli (talk) 10:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

  1. ^ [1]
  2. ^ [2]
  3. ^ [3]
Do you have a source for this, or is it all your own work? If the former, we can include it; it's no nuttier than Graves or Kerenyi. (As a private comment: The attested forms of Orion all begin with omega; the u/ou/upsilon complex is only found in connection with the cowhide story, and I see a consensus that it is folk-etymology. ) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank-you for your feedback Septentrionalis. Unfortunately, much of the drawing together of ideas is my own, however the ass' jawbone is from the story of the giant Samson in the Bible's Old Testament in Judges Ch. 15, the parallel of Samson with Orion is Bruce Rimell's idea, published on one of his copyrighted & genial websites <:ref>[8]<:/ref> which analyses the story of the rain-making giant, amongst others. Another quotable source that mentions Julius Caesar on uri and much later Jupiter Urius, not tied to Orion however, is in 'Dacia Preistorica', by Nicolae Densusianu, published post mortem in 1913, a free English version: 'Prehistoric Dacia' translated by Alexandra Ioana Furdui is available <:ref>[www.pelasgians.org]<:ref> I hope this helps,{—Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabrieli (talk • contribs) Coincidentally, Uriaş is pronounced Uriash; Uriash = Ninhursag = Ki, as in topics Enki and Eridu. Gabrieli (talk) 06:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC) Uriash/Ki/Gaia (snake-holder goddess later partly replaced by Ophiucus and 'snake-grasping-eagle Jupiter' of the adjacent constellation of Scorpius) sends her son Cronos to chase/castrate/sacrifice his bull-father/brother Uranus (son of Gaia) with the agricultural implement, ~ parallel to the farmer Cain (Enki) killing herder Abel (Abzu) scene. This would make Orion not Uriaş as at the start of the talk but fertilising Cronos/Ea/Aquarius. The mind boggles... Gabrieli (talk) 08:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

i dont no what it is but it looks cool —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.118.89.130 (talk) 18:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Help with Scorpio (astrology)

Looking for someone with the necessary expertise to help author a section on Greek mythology in the above article. Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

"See Also" section

The see also section currently contains only one entry "Telumehtar" which redirects to a page called "Telumehtar Umbardacil" about the 28th King of Gondor in Tolkien's Middle-Earth. Is that right? It doesn't seem right! 77.99.98.37 (talk) 19:57, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Telumehtar was one of the Middle-earth names of the Orion constellation, and in all likelihood the king was named after it. But it was not the only name, or even the most used name—see Middle-earth cosmology#Menelvagor, which would be the right target for a "see also". Even so, while it could be relevant at Orion (constellation), I fail to see how it relates to this Orion, so I'll just remove the link. 85.226.206.229 (talk) 07:55, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Tolkien also had a myth of Telumehtar, as a great hunter and warrior; see Lost Tales. I cannot quite see how to work it into the section on Literary influences; but it is not unlikely to be of interest to readers here. That's what a See also ought to be.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
It's worse than that now. The article about King Telumehtar is now deleted and the link is just a redirect to the overall topic "List of kings of Gondor". The entire "See Also" link has gone beyond any relevance and probably should be deleted. 199.46.199.230 (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Has this article been tampered with?

I was wondering if this article has been tampered with? Only I spotted an incongruity in the first line of the second paragraph of the section entitled "Cult and popular appreciation": The text reads "The Boeotian school of epic poetry was chiefly concerned with hey how r u?" What's that all about then? The second sentence reads "The genealogies of the gods and heroes; later writers elaborated this web."

I get the sense this should read "The Boeotian school of epic poetry was chiefly concerned with the genealogies of the gods and heroes; later writers elaborated this web."

MrGraphis (talk) 23:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC)MrGraphis

Transient vandalism; long since fixed, as you suggest. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This is not quantum mechanics, so the concepts should be explainable in ordinary English.

What does this mean?

"Modern mythographers have seen the story of Orion as a way to access local folk tales and cultic practices directly without the interference of ancient high culture"

76.218.104.120 (talk) 08:30, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

What part of that sentence is unclear? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Ovid

The editors overlooked Ovid's narration of the birth of Orion in his Fasti, book V if I remember correctly.10:28, 26 February 2016 (UTC)~ The system is out of order and I cannot sign. I am Aldrasto 11.

"Orion is used by Horace, who tells of his death at the hands of Diana/Artemis,[82] and by Ovid, in his Fasti for May 11, the middle day of the Lemuria, when (in Ovid's time) the constellation Orion set with the sun.[83] Ovid's episode tells the story of Hyrieus and the three gods, although Ovid is bashful about the climax; Ovid makes Hyrieus a poor man, which means the sacrifice of an entire ox is more generous." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:54, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

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