Talk:Our Father, Thou in Heaven Above

By Luther

"Our Father, Thou in Heaven Above" is not a hymn by Luther, it is the translation of a hymn by Luther which has an article, Vater unser im Himmelreich. I think this article should stay strictly with the English version, and possibly other English translations. What Luther thought and phrased would be better in the other article. I consider to make a similar separation of Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott and A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:08, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Gerda, it does say "originally written" then goes on to explain the translation. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 17:13, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No merge, but refine the contents to avoid duplication. Klbrain (talk) 23:45, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

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This article has only one paragraph about the actual topic, the remainder is info already present in Vater unser im Himmelreich. It is more logical and useful to merge this article there, as the start of a new section "English translations". Fram (talk) 08:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Agree that the two should be merged, but unsure which title to use as the main article. How common is the English version? If the English version is rarely performed, use the German title; otherwise use the English. --Khajidha (talk) 11:15, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I am sure that the German should be used, because that's what Luther wrote. Most of his hymns have articles with a German name. Composers setting his hymn typically set the German text. I could imagine two articles, if there was enough about the translated hymn to say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:59, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

"because that's what Luther wrote". So? If the English version is a fair translation (not necessarily an exact translation, but not having a completely different meaning from the original) why wouldn't we use the English title? Or should all songs be at their untranslated titles? Or all creative works? Movies, books, songs, tv shows, etc. --Khajidha (talk) 12:35, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Don't say "all". I come from project opera, and very few operas are left without the original title as the article name, see Opera corpus, examples Götterdämmerung, Così fan tutte and Jenůfa. - I see a tendency to do so, especially if the work is most often performed in that language, worldwide. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

For comparison, we have an article on Silent Night, not Stille Nacht. --Khajidha (talk) 12:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I understand that it is popular and often sung in English, including popular culture, so no good example. I doubt that we can say the same about "Our father", talking about this particular translation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I did say "if the English version is rarely performed, use the German title". If this song is rarely performed in English and is best known (in English) by its German title, then of course it should be at that title. But your point that "that's what Luther wrote" is still not relevant to whether the English article would be at the English or German title. All that matters is English usage. If, as in opera, the original language name is the most commonly used one in English, then use that. If a translated English title is more commonly used in English, then use that. --Khajidha (talk) 12:57, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

If "Our father" is sung anywhere popular besides church use, it doesn't show in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Whether in church or out makes no difference. When it is sung in church, is it sung in English or German?--Khajidha (talk) 12:57, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

How do I know. In German churches, in German. In some American churches in English, in others in German, - no idea in which proportion. We don't have reliable sources about it, so can't base anything on it. The many musical settings - as far as I know - use the German. See also {{Lutheran hymns}}. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:54, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

What is done in German churches is totally irrelevant to how the song is known and discussed in English. That there is an English title for it would seem to weigh in on using the English title for the page name. And, given the number of the hymns listed there that I randomly clicked on that had you as a major contributor, I don't see how that can be used as evidence that the German names are the ones commonly used in English. Page titles on the English Wikipedia are based on what name is commonly used for the topic in English. Operas, when discussed or performed by English speakers, often are given their original language names and are performed in their original language. When Silent Night is performed by English speakers, it is almost always under that name and not the German original. Your point about Silent Night being popular in the wider culture isn't really relevant. The point is, when the topic of the article is encountered by/discussed by English speakers, what form of the title is used? Even if the vast majority of English speakers never encounter the topic, what form do those that do use? --Khajidha (talk) 14:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I oppose the move on the grounds that they are two different hymns. Indeed we have both Christ ist erstanden and Christ the Lord Is Risen Again! as separate hymns though one is a translation with the reason being that the translation itself is a new composition even though it may have a basis on the original. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:58, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

If it's a new composition then most of the material here about Luther doesn't belong. It should state something like ""Our Father, Thou in Heaven Above" is a Lutheran Christian hymn by Catherine Winkworth, written in 1863 based on a German hymn by Martin Luther" (linking to the German hymn) and then go on to talk only about the English song. The entire first paragraph of History would not be relevant here, but only at the article for the German original. --Khajidha (talk) 11:00, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.