Talk:Palace Theatre (Marion, Ohio)

Palace Theatre (Marion, Ohio) was nominated as a Art and architecture good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (March 15, 2016). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Good Article[edit]

@Atmospheric theatre:This article could be a WP:GA. Some areas you might want to consider for improvement:

Clean up the references section - there are some bare URLs there
If there are any footnotes (vs citations) move them to a separate header and change Footnotes and References to just References
Remove lengthy peripheral discussions, such as the details about the Singin' Cowboy - the fact of the premier is relevant, but the contents of the musical are not - if it is notable, it will be discussed in its own article - shorten that up.
put the general references in their own section
The quote from the Marion Star might be a little long

I went ahead and fixed some section header issues, per MOS:HEAD, section headers are sentence case, not title case, and headers should not redundantly include the subject of the article. Generic1139 (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Atmospheric theatre: Your changes look good. I fleshed out a ref or two, and replaced one. There are two additional things in the references that I think need to be addressed:

The [1] ref for the Pavilion section. It doesn't contain the information about inconsistent architectural design and the name not being descriptive of the space. You need a reference that says that. Or, perhaps better, shorten that section, or merge it with another section, or delete it - that space isn't part of the historical theatre anyway.
The Marion Online reference for the 2015 renovation. That reference is from 2013 when those events were in the future. You need a current reference about the end of the fund raising and the start of the work. There is a Marion Star reference, but it is only from March 2015. Generic1139 (talk) 17:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Atmospheric theatre: Prior to adding the GA nomination tag, I did some looking for possible copyvios, the section on the organ has an overlap with the Sept 15 post at [2]. It is entirely possible that this post came from the the Wikipedia article, in which case there is no problem. If both came from the Eberson book, then the last para in the organ section needs to change. And, in any case, a citation is needed for that para. I did add a citation for the collection mentioned in the book and archives section. A citation is needed for the current use section. After that, I think this will be ready for a first GA review. Generic1139 (talk) 15:34, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Generic1139:Thank you very much for your edit suggestions. I also appreciate the clean-up. This is my first full article, and I am eager to learn. I added a cite for the organ discussion, which is not from the book or a repost of the facebook post; rather, it is from the Central Indiana web site. I also made the other suggested changes. A GA nomination is very much appreciated.Atmospheric theatre (talk) 12:12, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Atmospheric theatre: I made a final cleanup pass, and removed a section on the book and author, as it doesn't add to the information on the theater and the book is already cited. During the GA review, someone might ask, or assume, that you are, or are associated with, the author. If you are, you might consider so stating, as there are additional conflict of interest and original research ramifications. It would not preclude this article from being a part of wikipedia, but the article would need to be squeaky clean in terms of making sure it isn't just an ad for a book or an author. See WP:COI, and note that "Determining that someone has a COI is a description of a situation. It is not a judgment about that person's state of mind or integrity". I should have brought this up sooner, and I apologize for not doing so.

If you want to proceed with the GA, simply edit the ~~text~~ talk page, and add this at the top: {{subst:GAN|subtopic=Art and architecture}}, and that's all you need to do. Generic1139 (talk) 17:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for all of your help. One of the most difficult things in writing this article was to avoid marketing discussions--after all, it is an operating theatre. I am on the board of the theatre, and also the author of the book. I am not making any money from the book, however, as I have donated all royalties to the theatre (a non-profit). I can see how this creates a COI, however, and would have no problem disclosing that in the article. See if what I have added is enough (first book fn)Atmospheric theatre (talk) 12:28, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I see I had a typo, the GA template goes on this talk page, not the article page. As far as your adding a reference to the author of the book writing the article, that isn't appropriate for the article. You make that disclosure in two places, per WP:DISCLOSE, on your user page, and on this talk page, there is a template provided. Further, per WP:FCOI, you might be be viewed as having a financial interest (even if you have donated the proceeds to a non-profit). Finally, of the 32 current citations, 11 are references to the Hoffman book. Per WP:SELFCITE, that may be too many.

The absolute right thing to do now, since you have already done so informally, is to declare your connections as the book author and board member using the {{connected contributor}} template, then back away and let someone else edit this article from now on. What needs to happen then is:

hold off on GA for now
remove or reduce the current use section, especially as it mentioned renting the facility.
Remove all or almost all references to the book, replacing them with references to the underlying source of the information. If there is no underlying source, then, because you are the author of the book, such information would be considered as original research, subject to removal.
You could, using the guidelines of suggesting changes on the talk page, provide the references to the underlying information, and another editor will add them.
Get input from an expert in COI editing to see if this page can be saved.

Sorry if this all seems draconian, but, if you've read the article on COI, you can see why the Wikipedia community thinks it is necessary. Continue to keep a good attitude about this, and I think we can rework this to follow the guidlines. Generic1139 (talk) 15:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see much of a problem here at first glance. AT may want to use the connected contributor template, but I haven't seen anything that says he is a paid editor. AT, are you being paid as an adman/writer or as a board member? An occasional free working lunch doesn't count. If not, a regular COI disclosure is all that's needed. There might be some copyright problems, but if AT owns the copyright that's purely technical. A purist might insist that he write an email to OTRS saying he releases the copyright, if any of the material overlaps his previous work. WP:OR, I think, is only a minor concern. Self-cites are allowed, but citing the original source is better. citing a colleagues book or another author's book is good too. AT would be discouraged from editing the article itself, but he can put anything he wants to here, and we can recheck it. I very much appreciate Generics warnings and suggestions - we get so many hidden ads here! But , on 1st reading I don't see any sales job here, and think we can relax a bit. I'll watch this space. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:42, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Palace Theatre (Marion, Ohio)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 05:44, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nice article. Will review. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 05:44, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lead[edit]

A word or two about what the Young Amusement Company is?
Is Marion Palace short for Marion Palace Theatre?
Please do not include citations in the lead. The facts in the lead must all be mentioned in the main text as well - the citations should thus go to the main text.
A movie palace, it was one of the last to be built in the atmospheric theatre style in the United States. Seems to repeat what was said in the first para
The first and second paras are very similar; why not merge them?
What exactly is grade level?
one of 16 atmospheric theatres Should it not be "one of the 16 atmospheric theatres"?
Duplinks: atmospheric theatre, United States, movie palace

Architecture[edit]

Eberson designed it to fit the vision of owner The meaning of "vision" may not be clear here
"A Spanish Castle" or "A Palace in Old Spain." Why are these in caps?
It is difficult to assign an Eberson theatre ... precisely replicating an architectural period." Could be combined.
during the 1920s, and features --> during the 1920s; it features
Could we link terra-cotta, patio, proscenium, balustrades, stucco shells?
What exactly does design influence mean?
A blue sky "The"?
Stars are designed in constellation patterns To avoid the repetition of "design", how would "arranged" be?

Opening night[edit]

Ref 12 is used consecutively in a few lines at the start. Place it at the end of the chain.
Could we link organ music
Who is Newstrom?

Pietro Caproni statues[edit]

The image to the right is a representation of the Caproni...Caproni plaster casting of the Praying Boy. I believe this should go into the caption. I have hardly seen descriptions placed outside images.

Theatre organ[edit]

Is ref. 20 the source for everything from the start till the quote?
These spaces were remodeled...multi-purpose spaces. Source?

Hiroshi Sugimoto[edit]

Can the three small sections following Restoration be merged?
Hiroshi Sugimoto (杉本博司, Sugimoto Hiroshi) Do we really need to translate the name? You may have to translate every other foreign name then.
What exactly is ref. 28 the source for in this section?

The Singin' Cowboy premiere[edit]

I think it is "August 2011" (no comma)
"Executive Director and Artistic Director " Are caps needed?
Are the details of the musical really needed? If yes, they may be arranged better.

Closing note : This review has been open for two weeks now and the nominator seems inactive since the last few months. I tried to attract attention of other editors towards this article at WP:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places but this did not seem to help. The review requires the involvement of the nominator. Hence, I have to fail this nomination. However, I must say this article is an excellent work and I would love to see this re-nominated in the coming days. Sainsf <^>_{Talk all words} 10:38, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]