Talk:Palatine Lodge No. 97

This article was nominated for deletion on 27 May 2022. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

Stev201961 (talk · contribs) This user has declared a connection. (As a member of Palatine Lodge No 97 and the author of this article, I have been advised to declare my relationship to the Lodge. The purpose of this article is not to promote Freemasonry or Palatine Lodge No 97, but to provide access to the history of this ancient Lodge that would otherwise be difficult.)

Excessive Primary Sources[edit]

Stev201961, Article talk page is more appropriate for this discussion.

I will not be removing the tag, but lets go through the sources, so that is it clear what the issue is. Which are actually written by an independent third party? Review shows high likelihood none of them are. Additionally, which discuss the subject in-depth while also being independent of the subject? Again, does not seem to be. Existence is not notability

"The United Grand Lodge of England". Archived from the original on 2007-10-24. Retrieved 2007-11-11. - Primary Source, list

"Lane's Masonic Records". The John Lane’s Masonic Records. Published by The Digital Humanities Institute, University of Sheffield.- Connected Source

"Wearside Masonic Temple". - Primary Source

Beamish Open Air Museum". - Primary Source

"Masonic Installation at Sunderland". The British Newspaper Archive. Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette - Friday 09 December 1887. - Can not access but given the providence of other sources, suspect self reported

The Oldest Mason Lodge – W Bro Thornhill constituted the Sea Captains Lodge". The British Newspaper Archive, British Museum. Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette - Friday 08 October 1886 (Page 3). -Self reported by subject

Lane's Masonic Records". John Lane’s Masonic Records. Published by The Digital Humanities Institute, University of Sheffield. -Connected, List

Provincial Grand Lodge of Durham, Notable Events". - Primary

"A City Shaped by Masons". Sunderland Echo and Shipping Journal. Northeast Press. 6 May 2009 - Unknown

"Lane's Masonic Records". John Lane’s Masonic Records. Published by The Digital Humanities Institute, University of Sheffield. - Connected

"Palatine Lodge No 97 Lane's Records". Lane’s Masonic Records. Museum of Freemasonry. - Primary

"Lodge of instruction ; Their relationship to the mother lodge" (PDF). Masonic Periodicals, The Freemasons Chronicle, 28th April 1888. -Connected Source

"Freemasonry, The initiation of Sir Hedworth Williamson son". British Newspaper Archive, British Museum. Evening News (London) - Wednesday 20 January 1892 (page 4). -Submitted by Subject

"Presence of a Respectable Circle of Society (page 5)". British Newspaper Archive. Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette - Wednesday 30 October 1929.- Unknown

"Masonic Notes". British Newspaper Archive. Newcastle Journal - Wednesday 19 January 1916. - Primary, reported by Lodge- Submitted by subject

"A History of Chapter of Strict Benevolence No 97 – Michael Scarth".-Written by Lodge Member

"MASONIC INSTALLATION - Hedworth Williamson". The British Newspaper Achieve. Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette - Friday 15 January 1892 - Page 3. - Submitted by Subject

"Early Victorian on Wearside (page 5)". The British Newspaper Achieve. Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette - Friday 09 December 1949.-Unknown

"New Masonic Temple, Masonic Opening in Sunderland (page 2)". The British Newspaper Achieve. Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette, Friday 29 July 1932.- unknown

"MASONIC INSTALLATION (page 3)". British Newspaper Achive. Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette - Friday 15 - Primary, submitted by Subject

"John Bowes: Freemason, civil rights advocate and philanthropist". 7 June 2016.- Obit, unlikely to show indepth coverage of subject

"Local Intelligence – The Installation of Bro S.P. Austin". British Newspaper Archive. Newcastle Journal, Saturday 13 December 1873.-Submitted by subject

"The Late Mr S. P. Austin". Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer - Tuesday 31 March 1925, page 7. The British News Paper Achieve- Obit, unlikely to show indepth coverage

In sum, this article fails to meet WP:NORG and should it remain in Article space, it should keep the tag until such time that independent, reliable secondary sources that discuss the subject in-depth are found

Slywriter (talk) 01:56, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Slywriter, As you know, many points have been made on your talk page regarding this article and, I do wonder why you are so negative and opposed to it. It’s a historic piece of work, using historic references and not contentious in any way.

Following are responses to your comments, for the purpose of documenting them on this article talk page.

The United Grand Lodge of England is the governing body of Freemasonry in England. Yes, we are governed by the UGLE but have no influence over what they publish. Note, the UGLE Wikipedia page quotes Masonic references, including the Lane's Masonic Records held at the Sheffield University archive. The Lanes register is an independent source and Palatine Lodge has no influence over it, or what Sheffield University publishes. The only connection is that it holds records about Palatine and all other Lodges.

The Provincial Grand Lodge of Durham is the governing body of Freemasonry in Durham, England and is also not a primary source. See it’s wiki page and note that it uses the UGLE as a reference source, as this article does.

The Wearside Masonic Temple is an independent source, it’s the building where the Lodge meets, a self-governing organisation! This reference is solely to support the statement regarding where the Lodge meets.

Beamish Open Air Museum is a Social History Museum and has no affiliation with Palatine. The only connection is that, prior to 1932, Palatine Lodge met at the building, which is now an exhibit, having been moved from its original location in Sunderland.

Regarding the Newspaper articles, from various publications (and geographic locations) held in The British Newspaper Archive at the British Museum (London). These articles are independent sources. Besides recording historical facts, e.g. "The New Masonic Temple Opening in Sunderland”, they are used as a reference to prove that a person, quoted in the Notable Member Section, was indeed a member of Palatine Lodge i.e., the articles quote the person’s name and as being a member. Like every newspaper, details are collected by the reporting journalist, verified, and published! Wikipedia allows newspaper articles to be used as a reliable source ( ref Wikipedia:Verifiability).

As I’m sure you know, Wikipedia has a multitude of entries that use Newspaper articles as reference sources. I had a quick scan, the article on Winston Churchill quotes the London Gazette, the Times, The Illustrated Sunday Herald etc. Likewise, an article on JFK references the Cork Irish Examiner daily newspaper, the Wall Street Journal etc… The same logic must apply to the independent Newspaper articles quoted in this article!

With regards to the article "The Late Mr S. P. Austin". The Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer - Tuesday 31 March 1925, this is not the only newspaper article mentioning that he was the Worshipful Master of Palatine Lodge. This and other articles prove that this esteemed Industrialist was indeed a member. This is the case for other ‘Notable Members’, there are other independent articles that demonstrate that they were Palatine Lodge members.

So, to conclude, the sources in this article have been written by independent third parties. They were written by persons who have no connection to the Lodge but were simply reporting on its verified activities. Otherwise, what would be the motive for reporting about Palatine Lodge?

Given the varied independent sources, written at various points in time over the last 100 years proves indeed that the Existence of Palatine Lodge No 97 is notifiable. The reviewer, who published this article in the Article space, also agreed that the sources used are independent. Regards, Stev201961 (talk) 13:59, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am negative because despite your insistence the sources are independent, they are not. Not a single third party, unrelated to the Lodge or Freemasonry has been shown as a source. The newspaper articles are self-submitted summaries that were routinely printed in papers, they are not a reporter writing about the lodge independently. Also, please refrain from taking this personal, it is about upholding Wikipedia policy. Existence is not notability, nor is longevity. Anyway, I will be sending this to WP:AFD and allowing the community to decide whether notability has been met,specifically notability of organizations policy of Wikipedia.

Also the Grand Lodge article is a terrible example, as it also suffers from lack of secondary sources.Slywriter (talk) 17:46, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]