Talk:Palestinian genocide accusation
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Combatting recency bias[edit]
As Super Dromaeosaurus highlights in a previous discussion on this talk page there is a prominent recency bias in the article due to the ongoing 2023 Israel-Hamas War and this bringing new prominence to the discussion of genocide of the Palestinians.
I've gone through some searches to pull the following news and opinion articles which comment on a genocide of the Palestinians (supportive of the allegation or against it) that have been published prior to 2023.
- 2000–2010
- Pappé, Illan (11 January 2007). "Palestine 2007: Genocide in Gaza, Ethnic Cleansing in the West Bank". Electronic Intifada.
Pappé, Illan (28 January 2008). "Genocide in Gaza, Ethnic Cleansing in the West Bank". The Indypendent."World stands united against 'genocide' in Gaza". Al Arabiya. 28 December 2008."Australian demonstrations show solidarity with Palestinian people". World Socialist Web Site. 5 January 2009."Caracas expels Israeli ambassador". France 24. Agence France-Press. 7 January 2009.Boyle, Francis A. (28 December 2009). "International Law And Israel's War On Gaza". Countercurrents.org.
- 2010–2015
- Steinberg, Michele (3 February 2010). "Prof. Francis Boyle: Israel Is Committing Genocide". Scoop.
- Lynfield, Ben (23 February 2010). "Israel 'stole Palestinian heritage'". The Independent.
- King, Tim; Izzat, Nahida (30 April 2010). "Southern Poverty Law Center, Palestine, and the Definition of Genocide". Salem-News.com.
Al-Jaza'iri, Isa (2 June 2010). "Flotilla massacre exposes criminal blockade of Gaza". In Defence of Marxism.- "Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission: Israel Guilty of Genocide". Scoop. 27 November 2013.
- Arman, Abukar (27 July 2014). "On Gaza, genocide, and impunity". Al Jazeera.
- Fisher, Max (1 August 2014). "Here's the full text of the deleted Times of Israel post backing genocide in Gaza". Vox.
- Armstrong, Mick (6 August 2014). "What is happening in Palestine is genocide". Red Flag.
- Davis, Charles (13 August 2014). "Israel's War on Palestine: It's Bad, but Is It 'Genocide'?". Vice.
- Boren, Zachary Davies (25 August 2014). "Holocaust survivors and their descendants accuse Israel of 'genocide'". The Independent.
- "Palestinian leader accuses Israel of 'genocide' at UN". BBC News. 27 September 2014.
- Falk, Richard (6 October 2014). "Is Israel Guilty of Genocide in Its Assault on Gaza?". The Nation.
- 2015–2020
- Çelik, Mehmet (8 May 2015). "Israeli MP Ayelet Shaked who called for genocide of Palestinians named Justice Minister". Daily Sabah.
- Electronic Intifada (3 May 2016). "Palestinians call for boycott of genocide conference in Jerusalem". Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions.
- Burston, Bradley (9 August 2016). "What We Talk About, When We Talk About Israel and Genocide". Haaretz.
- Nussbaum Cohen, Debra (10 August 2016). "The Jewish Activist Behind the Black Lives Matter Platform Calling Israel's Treatment of Palestinians 'Genocide'". Haaretz.
- Sidahmed, Mazin (11 August 2016). "Critics denounce Black Lives Matter platform accusing Israel of 'genocide'". The Guardian.
- Azzam, Zeina (15 August 2016). "The Movement for Black Lives, the Palestinian Struggle, and a Creeping Genocide". Common Dreams.
- Cohen, Stanley L. (29 December 2016). "Israel's never-ending crimes: It's not just settlements". Al Jazeera.
- Litvin, Yoav (6 January 2017). "The mainstreaming of Palestinian genocide". Mondoweiss.
- "The Nakba did not start or end in 1948". Al Jazeera. 23 May 2017.
- Blatman, Daniel (23 May 2017). "The Israeli Lawmaker Heralding Genocide Against Palestinians". Haaretz.
- Mohamad, Nabil (16 September 2017). "Remembering the Sabra and Shatila massacre 35 years on". Al Jazeera.
- Barrett, Kevin (1 November 2017). "Balfour: 100 years of deception, genocide and denial". Crescent International.
- Aydogan, Merve (1 November 2017). "Balfour document led to 'century of genocide': Diplomat". Anadolu Agency.
- "Israeli forces kill dozens of Palestinians in Gaza 'massacre'". Al Jazeera. 14 May 2018.
- Dabashi, Hamid (22 May 2018). "Palestine after the May 14 massacre". Al Jazeera.
- Elia, Nada (18 September 2018). "Israel's siege of Gaza: When does it become a genocide?". Middle East Eye.
- Litvin, Yoav (15 February 2019). "All Zionist roads lead to genocide". Al Jazeera.
- Wintour, Patrick (2 May 2019). "Persecution of Christians 'coming close to genocide' in Middle East – report". The Guardian.
- "Potential US presidential candidate accuses 'racist' Israel of committing 'genocide'". Middle East Monitor. 21 May 2019.
- Fisk, Robert (12 December 2019). "Sabra and Chatila taught me all massacres become 'alleged massacres' if we don't pay attention". The Independent.
- 2020–2023
- Ridley, Yvonne (14 April 2020). "We must never forget Israel's massacre in Jenin". Middle East Monitor.
- Shakra, Eyad Abu (18 April 2020). "The Sabra and Shatila massacre". Arab News.
- Ali, Taj (11 April 2023). "British Unions Should Stand in Solidarity with Palestinian Workers". Jacobin.
I plan to gather a better list of academic pieces that have currently not been used in the article over the next week. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:48, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- As stated here is a list of academic articles, books, and such that we don't use in the article, most of which occur from before the Israel-Hamas war.
- Academic sources
- 1950–2000
- Rouleau, Eric (January 1975). "The Palestinian Quest". Foreign Affairs. 53 (2): 264–283. doi:10.2307/20039507. JSTOR 20039507.
- Sayigh, Rosemary (October 1983). "Women in Struggle: Palestine". Third World Quarterly. 5 (4). Taylor & Francis: 880–886. doi:10.1080/01436598308419739. JSTOR 3990828.
Said, Edward W. (1984). "Permission to Narrate". Journal of Palestine Studies. 13 (3). Taylor & Francis: 27–48. doi:10.2307/2536688. JSTOR 2536688.- Linn, Ruth (1999). "In the name of the Holocaust: Fears and hopes among Israeli soldiers and Palestinians". Journal of Genocide Research. 1 (3): 439–453. doi:10.1080/14623529908413971.
- 2000–2010
- Ron, James (2000). "Savage Restraint: Israel, Palestine and the Dialectics of Legal Repression". Social Problems. 47 (4): 445–472. ISSN 0037-7791.
- Staub, Ervin; Bar-Tal, Daniel (2003). "Genocide, mass killing and intractable conflict: Roots, evolution, prevention and reconciliation". In Sears, D. O.; Huddy, L.; Jervis, R. (eds.). Oxford handbook of political psychology. Oxford University Press. pp. 710–751. ISBN 978-0199760107.
- Stohlman, Nancy; Aladin, Laurieann (2003). Live From Palestine: International and Palestinian Direct Action Against the Israeli Occupation. South End Press. ISBN 978-0896086951.
- Beinin, Joel (2003). "Is Terrorism a Useful Term in Understanding the Middle East and the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict?". Radical History Review. 2003 (85): 12–23. doi:10.1215/01636545-2003-85-12.
- Litvak, Meir; Webman, Esther. "Perceptions of the Holocaust in Palestinian Public Discourse" (PDF). Israel Studies. 8 (3). Indiana University Press: 123–140. JSTOR 30245620.
- Said, Edward W. (2004). "Memory, Inequality, and Power: Palestine and the Universality of Human Right". Alif: Journal of Comparative Poetics. 47 (3). American University in Cairo: 15–33. doi:10.2307/4047418. JSTOR 4047418.
- Kuriansky, Judy (2005). The Case for Palestine: An International Law Perspective. Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 978-0275990411.
- Midlarsky, Manus I. (2005). The Killing Trap: Genocide in the Twentieth Century. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0521894692.
- Quigley, John (2006). Terror in the Holy Land: Inside the Anguish of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. Duke University Press. ISBN 978-0-8223-8676-6.
Usher, Graham (2006). "The wall and the dismemberment of Palestine". Race & Class. 47 (3). SAGE Publications: 9–30. doi:10.1177/0306396806061084.Abed, Mohammed (2006). "Clarifying the Concept of Genocide". Metaphilosophy. 37 (3–4). Blackwell Publishing: 308–330. doi:10.1111/j.1467-9973.2006.00443.x.- Moshman, David (2007). "Us and Them: Identity and Genocide". Identity: An International Journal of Theory and Research. 7 (2): 115–135.
- Ganguly, Debjani; Curthoys, Ned, eds. (2007). Edward Said: The Legacy of a Public Intellectual. Melbourne University Publishing. ISBN 978-0522853568.
- Rogan, Eugene L.; Shlaim, Avi, eds. (2007). The War for Palestine: Rewriting the History of 1948. Cambridge Middle East Studies (2nd ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0521699341. – First edition, 2001
- Vollhardt, Johanna R. (2009). "The Role of Victim Beliefs in the Israeli–Palestinian Conflict: Risk or Potential for Peace?". Peace and Conflict. 15 (2). Routledge: 135–159. doi:10.1080/10781910802544373. ISSN 1532-7949.
- Hanafi, Sari (2009). "Spacio-cide: colonial politics, invisibility and rezoning in Palestinian territory". Contemporary Arab Affairs. 2 (1). Brill: 106–121. doi:10.1080/17550910802622645. ISSN 1755-0920.
- Bloxham, Donald (2009). The Final Solution: A Genocide. Oxford Histories. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0199550340.
- 2010–2015
- Lieberman, Benjamin (2010). "'Ethnic Cleansing' versus Genocide?". In Bloxham, Donald; Moses, A. Dirk (eds.). The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies. Oxford University Press. pp. 42–60. doi:10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199232116.013.0003. ISBN 978-0199232116.
- Collins, John (2010). "Between Acceleration and Occupation: Palestine and the Struggle for Global Justice". Studies in Social Justice. 4 (2): 199–215. doi:10.26522/ssj.v4i2.1002.
- Herman, Edward S.; Peterson, David (2010). The Politics of Genocide. Monthly Review Press. ISBN 978-1583672129.
Cook, William A., ed. (2010). The Plight of the Palestinians: A Long History of Destruction. Palgrave Macmillan. doi:10.1057/9780230107922. ISBN 978-0230107922.Saldívar, Martha Vanessa (December 2010). "From Mexico to Palestine: An Occupation of Knowledge, a Mestizaje of Methods". American Quarterly. 62 (4). Johns Hopkins University Press: 821–833.- Moshman, David (2011). "Identity, Genocide, and Group Violence". In Schwartz, Seth J.; Luyck, Koen; Vignoles, Vivian L. (eds.). Handbook of Identity Theory and Research. Springer. pp. 917–932. doi:10.1007/978-1-4419-7988-9_39. ISBN 978-1-4419-7988-9.
- Davidson, Lawrence (2012). Cultural Genocide. Rutgers University Press. ISBN 978-0813553443.
- Docker, John (2012). "Instrumentalising the Holocaust: Israel, Settler-Colonialism, Genocide (Creating a Conversation between Raphaël Lemkin and Ilan Pappé)". Holy Land Studies. 11 (1). ISSN 1474-9475.
- Lloyd, David (2012). "Settler Colonialism and the State of Exception: The Example of Palestine/Israel". Settler Colonial Studies. 2 (1): 59–80. doi:10.1080/2201473X.2012.10648826.
- Shalhoub-Kevorkian, Nadera (2014). "Human suffering in colonial contexts: reflections from Palestine". Settler Colonial Studies. 4 (3): 277–290. doi:10.1080/2201473X.2013.859979.
- 2015–2020
Lentin, Ronit (2016). "Palestine/Israel and State Criminality: Exception, Settler Colonialism and Racialization". State Crime Journal. 5 (1): 32–50. doi:10.13169/statecrime.5.1.0032. JSTOR 10.13169/statecrime.5.1.0032.- Shalhoub-Kevorkian, Nadera (2016). "Stolen childhood: Palestinian children and the structure of genocidal dispossession". Settler Colonial Studies. 6 (2): 142–152. doi:10.1080/2201473X.2015.1024380.
- David, Lea (2017). "Holocaust and genocide memorialisation policies in the Western Balkans and Israel/Palestine". Peacebuilding. 5 (1): 51–66. doi:10.1080/21647259.2016.1265045.
- Levine, Mark; Cheyfitz, Eric (2017). "Israel, Palestine, and the Language of Genocide". Tikkun. 32 (2): 50–55. doi:10.1215/08879982-3858345.
- Culverwell, Shannon M. (2017). Israel and Palestine- An analysis of the 2014 Israel-Gaza war from a genocidal perspective (BA).
- Amir, Merav (2017). "Revisiting politicide: state annihilation in Israel/Palestine". Territory, Politics, Governance. 5 (4): 368–387. doi:10.1080/21622671.2016.1231630.
Bashir, Bashir; Goldberg, Amos, eds. (2018). The Holocaust and the Nakba: A New Grammar of Trauma and History. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0231544481.Abdullah, Daud (2019). "A century of cultural genocide in Palestine". In Bachman, Jeffrey S. (ed.). Cultural Genocide: Law, Politics, and Global Manifestations. Routledge. pp. 227–245. ISBN 978-1-351-21410-0.- Divine, Donna Robinson (2019). "Word Crimes: Reclaiming The Language of The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict". Israel Studies. 24 (2). Indiana University Press: 1–16. doi:10.2979/israelstudies.24.2.01. JSTOR 10.2979/israelstudies.24.2.01.
- 2020–September 2023
Nijim, Mohammed (2020). Genocide in Gaza: Physical destruction and beyond (MA). University of Manitoba.- Fatafta, Marwa (2021). "Permission to Narrate 2.0". Arab Studies Journal. 29 (2): 128–133.
- Farsakh, Leila H., ed. (2021). Rethinking Statehood in Palestine: Self-Determination and Decolonization Beyond Partition. University of California Press. doi:10.1525/luminos.113. ISBN 978-0520385634.
Nijim, Mohammed (2023). "Genocide in Palestine: Gaza as a case study". The International Journal of Human Rights. 27 (1): 165–200. doi:10.1080/13642987.2022.2065261.- Musleh-Motut, Nawal (2023). Connecting the Holocaust and the Nakba Through Photograph-based Storytelling: Willing the Impossible. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 978-3-031-27238-7.
- October 2023–Present
"Active Genocide Alert - Israel-Palestine: There is No Justification for Genocide". Genocide Watch. 13 October 2023."Genocide Emergency Alert: Israel and Gaza". Lemkin Institute for the Prevention of Genocide. 17 October 2023.El-Affendi, Abdelwahab (2024). "The Futility of Genocide Studies After Gaza". Journal of Genocide Research. 27 (1). doi:10.1080/14623528.2024.2305525.
- -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:29, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't think recency bias is unreasonable here considering the current accusation (in this war) is by far the most significant. JDiala (talk) 08:08, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- I also think that it seems reasonable to expand on this article with the reliable sources that you have found. David A (talk) 08:16, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Throw this one in as well, Yes, it is genocide, April 2024 opinion from Amos Goldberg. Selfstudier (talk) 11:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Valuable image removed?[edit]
User:Monopoly31121993(2) removed[1] a long-standing photo of Jewish people protesting against the Palestinian genocide in London Bristol, initially without a rationale, then (when reverted) with an edit summary stating that there was not enough room for two images removed the less relevant image which is also highly offensive to most Jews who consider the genocide accusation as blood libel
[2] This edit and comment seemed to censor the fact that Israeli policies also face opposition by some Jews. Combined with the fact that Monopoly31121993(2) today tried to brand all those bringing up the accusations of genocide as Hamas supporters[3], I'm apprehensive that this removal may not be to the benefit of Wikipedia.
I wonder how the community views the issue. BTW, I've exhausted my revert quota for today. — kashmīrī TALK 21:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- What a bunch of blatant lies. Total mischaracterization of an image, it's not from London, there is nothing in the source that says this is a protest by jews. Also, you claim that I accused someone of being a Hamas supporter simply because I added a link to an article about decades of Palestinian claims against Israel? Kashmiri, you seem to be blatantly pushing your pro-Palestinian bias. Please refrain from editing pages related to this topic.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 08:45, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- And btw, the image that you claim (inaccurately) shows Jews in London was replaced with a relevant image of a protester claiming "genocide" was being carried out in Palestine on Oct. 9th immediately after the war began which clearly shows that the "genocide" accusation has been around even before the Israeli invasion. The explanation that I provided was that the replacement image was not relevant to section that it had been posted in previously but was relevant to the section where I had moved it. There was however only space for one image in that section.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 08:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Monopoly31121993(2) couple of questions, what religions wear a kippah? Is 9 after 7 in a chronological sequence? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Since when is a picture with 1 person wearing a kippah in Bistol translatable into "Jewish people protesting against the Palestinian genocide in London."? This is Wikipedia, we can't decide what we think we are seeing. We have to use the captions that are provided by the reliable source.
- As for your other snide comment, "Is 9 after 7 in a chronological sequence?". I have no idea what you are referring to so I can't respond.
- I would appreciate it if you kept things civil. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 09:23, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Monopoly31121993(2) you seem to be mistaking the comment from Kashmiri describing the image in this discussion with the description provided in the article. So your complaints about a description that does not exist in the article are null and void. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- The question on chronology is in reference to you statement saying that a protest on the 9th is evidence of genocide accusations prior to the 7th, when saying this would make the image better to show in the section discussing the Israeli assault on Gaza after October 7th. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:45, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Monopoly31121993(2) you seem to be mistaking the comment from Kashmiri describing the image in this discussion with the description provided in the article. So your complaints about a description that does not exist in the article are null and void. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Monopoly31121993(2) couple of questions, what religions wear a kippah? Is 9 after 7 in a chronological sequence? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- And btw, the image that you claim (inaccurately) shows Jews in London was replaced with a relevant image of a protester claiming "genocide" was being carried out in Palestine on Oct. 9th immediately after the war began which clearly shows that the "genocide" accusation has been around even before the Israeli invasion. The explanation that I provided was that the replacement image was not relevant to section that it had been posted in previously but was relevant to the section where I had moved it. There was however only space for one image in that section.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 08:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Simon Sebag Montefiore[edit]
@Iskandar323: I'm not sure about this removal of Simon Sebag Montefiore's opinion. Yes, he writes pop history. But:
- He has a PhD in history from Cambridge University
- He was a visiting professor (of humanities) at University of Buckingham
- He is a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature (which admittedly isn't a history credential)
- On this topic specifically, he has a 2011 book, Jerusalem: The Biography, which:
- Received enough reviews to be wiki-notable
- Was a Sunday Times bestseller
- Won Jewish Book of the Year from the Jewish Book Council
- Won the Wenjin Book Prize from the National Library of China
- Has 238 Google scholar cites, including--from my quick check--scholarly citations such as [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
- Also in the history category, his 2022 book The World: A Family History of Humanity, which:
- Was a NYT bestseller
- Was History Book of the Year by The Times (UK)
- Was Best History Book of the Year by Smithsonian Magazine
- Was one of the Best Books of the Year by The New Yorker
- Was one of the Best Books of the Year by The Economist
- Has "only" 5 Google Scholar cites (not a ton but not nothing considering it's a little over a year old), and all 5 seem like legit scholarship based on a very quick glance: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]
So I think he counts as a historian, like a legit historian. Not on the level of Said or Morris, but enough of a historian to make his opinion WP:DUE for inclusion. He's not a genocide scholar, but is that where we draw the line for this article? Levivich (talk) 17:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- On the latter point – ideally, probably? I hear you that his credentials extend a little further than your average pop historian, but he is honestly known as a TV historian, and this really isn't even close to his area of expertise. The quote in question was also somewhat off-topic – this possibly being partially a result of him being a non-expert on the topic. He was saying apartheid yes, but genocide
no, but in a generic context without any real specificity to any particular time period or event. This made the statement vague at best in any case. He was saying apartheid yes, but genocideno about violence in the West Bank in 2022 and 2023, which appears to be a bit of an out-of-the-blue and pointless affirmation of a negative, since does anyone even assert that violence in the West Bank in 2022 and 2023 is genocide? (Genuine question. Not sure. Does anyone say it's a slow genocide? Otherwise, it's just knocking down a bizarrely specific strawman.) Iskandar323 (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)- I'd be inclined to inclusion for this one, personally. Selfstudier (talk) 17:49, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- It is not out of the question that the WB events, taken not in isolation but in toto, add to the genocide narrative.
- Israel is Committing Genocide across Palestine:Active Genocide Alert Condemning Ongoing Violence in the West Bank Selfstudier (talk) 17:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah I get it. As a starting point, I'm not too fond of the "parade of opinions" approach in this or any article (lots of articles do this). But if we're going to list "X said genocide/not genocide," there ought to be some kind of standard for who gets included. Maybe that standard should be "historians," maybe it should be "historians of the I/P conflict," maybe it should be "genocide scholars." Then there's the other issue, do we include the opinions that all of it is/is not genocide, or some specific acts were/were not genocide, and does it have to be "genocide" or does "genocidal" count, etc. etc. I'm not sure what the best inclusion criteria would be, and don't really have a strongly-held opinion on where to draw the line, other than that there ought to be some objective standard for inclusion, and right now I look at the article and I think, well, on what basis do we exclude Montefiore but include, e.g., Michael Sfard and Stephen Sedley? Levivich (talk) 18:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- If there's a quorum for inclusion, I don't really mind. But yeah, it struck me as an oddly less expert voice amid much more esteemed ones. A bit meh. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- I guess if I were to try and formulate inclusion criteria, it would be "notable scholars of I/P conflict" and "notable scholars of genocide", which would exclude all three people I've mentioned. Levivich (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- Very much agree on this point, it should be notable academics and scholars, that is those who specialise in the subject who are presented for highlight. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Drawing the line is tricky, not sure about Sfard, for example, he seems well versed in the IP conflict. Selfstudier (talk) 17:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sfard would be most easily resolved by moving him to the legal discourse, imo. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:25, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Another way to skin this cat is to go with the only-opinions-reported-in-secondary-sources rule, i.e., we don't cite X for "X said genocide/not genocide", we only cite Y for "X said genocide/not genocide", and so long as Y is an RS, it doesn't matter who X is. In other words: significant opinions are any opinions reported in RS. IMO it would work better if the rule was that you have to have 2 or even 3 Y's for every X. In other words: significant opinions are any opinions reported by multiple RS. And then to go further, we could say the Y has to be a scholar, or an I/P scholar or genocide scholar, or whatever criteria. I'm still not sure where exactly to draw the line but that's another approach to line-drawing. Levivich (talk) 17:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- We would need a cut out for publications in relevant journals, as the most extensive and thought out argumentation is likely to be journal articles where the scholars detail their analysis, and these are nearly never covered in secondary RS. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't like analyzed it to actually know one way or the other, but I would guess that these opinions/analyses are covered in secondary RS, specifically when scholars respond to each other. It would create a delay -- people are publishing now responding to things that were published six months or a year ago -- and that delay is a disadvantage when it comes to covering post-Oct 7 stuff. We could have one rule for new stuff (too new to be responded to) and a separate rule for old stuff (old enough to have been responded to by now if it were significant). Levivich (talk) 17:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think material gets temporally sorted by default. Single-sourced opinions and quotes tend to get steadily trimmed down with time, much as weathered limestone. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't like analyzed it to actually know one way or the other, but I would guess that these opinions/analyses are covered in secondary RS, specifically when scholars respond to each other. It would create a delay -- people are publishing now responding to things that were published six months or a year ago -- and that delay is a disadvantage when it comes to covering post-Oct 7 stuff. We could have one rule for new stuff (too new to be responded to) and a separate rule for old stuff (old enough to have been responded to by now if it were significant). Levivich (talk) 17:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree its tricky, but one way or another, presumably genocide scholars would get a free pass with just one source - they are the most pertinent voices after all. Sfard, as noted above, is probably indeed more pertinent to the legal discourse section. Same for Stephen Sedley. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- So: experts in I/P, experts in genocide, and experts in human rights law/law of war (I don't think opinions of just any lawyers would be WP:DUE)? I could get on board with that. That would exclude Montefiore but include Sfard. However, I think it would exclude Sedley, who I think is not an expert in human rights/war/international law? Levivich (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Sedley material is also almost criminally anecdotal. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Both Montefiore and Sedney are excellent sources (Sedley by the way is an expert on human rights)Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'll confess to ignorantly not voyaging beyond the WP page of Sedley for details, so my appraisal is only as partial as that shakey substance, but it appears his expertise is generally of the more domestic legal variety. Montefiore is also a perfectly adequate voice generally speaking; I'm just not sure genocide rulings are really his forte. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- From memory Sedley sat on the European Commission of Human Rights. To my mind he has always been one of the sanest occasional commentators in this area. His anecdote reflects direct observation. Montefiore, like Simon Schama, is a marvellously gifted historian, and someone with expertise on the long story of Jerusalem will not be unfamiliar with genocidal realities, since core events in Jerusalem's history revolve round extreme ethnic violence. While I am often perplexed when both he and Schama comment on recent decades of I/P conflicts - one cannot be scrupulous in documenting Jewish travails over time and then careless in applying the same sensitivity to the tragedies and traumas of Palestinians without dropping one's historical guard against partisanship in a decidedly embarrassing way- my reservations over such lapses in no way permit me to call into question their authority to comment. Nishidani (talk) 07:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'll confess to ignorantly not voyaging beyond the WP page of Sedley for details, so my appraisal is only as partial as that shakey substance, but it appears his expertise is generally of the more domestic legal variety. Montefiore is also a perfectly adequate voice generally speaking; I'm just not sure genocide rulings are really his forte. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Both Montefiore and Sedney are excellent sources (Sedley by the way is an expert on human rights)Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Sedley material is also almost criminally anecdotal. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- So: experts in I/P, experts in genocide, and experts in human rights law/law of war (I don't think opinions of just any lawyers would be WP:DUE)? I could get on board with that. That would exclude Montefiore but include Sfard. However, I think it would exclude Sedley, who I think is not an expert in human rights/war/international law? Levivich (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- We would need a cut out for publications in relevant journals, as the most extensive and thought out argumentation is likely to be journal articles where the scholars detail their analysis, and these are nearly never covered in secondary RS. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I guess if I were to try and formulate inclusion criteria, it would be "notable scholars of I/P conflict" and "notable scholars of genocide", which would exclude all three people I've mentioned. Levivich (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- If there's a quorum for inclusion, I don't really mind. But yeah, it struck me as an oddly less expert voice amid much more esteemed ones. A bit meh. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Infobox[edit]
I am proposing an updated version of the info box. Given this page’s importance and the fact that these pages – Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel and Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War – both have infoboxes, I felt it was important to do so. I have fixed/addresssed many earlier raised concerns:
- “It also appears to present as fact events/judgements/motives which are highly contested.”: I don’t believe so, but feel free to delete any or reorder them. They are not sourced on this page (Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War) and thus have no need to be here
- “Who decides what the motives are for a series of unproven accusations?”: Again, feel free to change or delete them. I thought these would be standard etc.
- “Islamophobia isn't generally regarded as a motive here”: this I disagree with. It may not be the main motive, but it is a secondary one.
Alternatively, I would be happy to remove the motives section altogether and keep the rest. By the way, good figures over a long period are very hard to find. If you can, please insert any relevant info there.
Here are some of my improvements:
- As with the accepted formula on this page, I have added many attack types. Better, they are sourced.
Palestine genocide allegations | |
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Part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict | |
Location | State of Palestine and Israel |
Date | 1948 – present |
Target | Palestinians |
Attack type | Allegations of usage of: Collective punishment,[1][2][3] airstrikes (including in refugee camps),[4][5][6] famine,[7][8][9] forced displacement (ethnic cleansing),[10][11][12][13][14][15] looting,[16][17][18] psychological warfare,[19][20][21] rape and sexual violence,[22][23][24] deliberate and systematic infliction of life-threatening conditions by military sieges,[25][26][27][28][29][30] others |
Deaths |
|
Victims |
|
Motive | Allegations of: Anti-Palestinianism, Anti-Arab racism, desire to expand into the West Bank (including the Jordan Valley), Islamophobia, Zionism, settler colonialism |
Accused | Israel |
Please work constructively and add or remove what you think if you have consensus. If little feedback or amendment is given, I will add this box to the page.
Thank you, From Scientelensia (talk) 17:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think this page needs an infobox, tbh. Selfstudier (talk) 17:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why do you think that? I think it provides clarity and information for new viewers and upgrades the status of the article. Scientelensia (talk) 17:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- The question is why do we need one, we managed perfectly well without one till now. It is not for WP editors to make a "case" for genocide via infobox, the accusation is of course disputed and none of that is in the infobox. Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- My thoughts for reasons:
- Improves information, makes it more readily accessible without having to trawl through a page.
- Provides a summation of the allegations of the article.
- Other respected articles of the same nature use infoboxes for these reasons
- (As a lesser point, the page looks good.)
- Scientelensia (talk) 18:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- My thoughts for reasons:
- The question is why do we need one, we managed perfectly well without one till now. It is not for WP editors to make a "case" for genocide via infobox, the accusation is of course disputed and none of that is in the infobox. Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why do you think that? I think it provides clarity and information for new viewers and upgrades the status of the article. Scientelensia (talk) 17:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I made some tweaks to the infobox to try and improve it, but I'm still not really liking the idea of an infobox on this article (or infoboxes on the other articles you mentioned for that matter). An infobox is for giving readers at-a-glance quick facts about the topic. For a topic like this, I don't think there are any quick facts that can be summed up into short infobox parameters. Almost every parameter is "unsure/needs explanation," e.g. when it started, where it happened, who was targeted, how many died, the methods (attack type), motives, and who's responsible (it's not just Israel). This infobox kind of concatenates everything from everywhere... but not everyone who says there is a genocide of Gazans going on since Oct 7 also thinks that this genocide began in 1948 or includes anyone in the West Bank or in Israel. Similarly, not everyone who says that the 1948 Nakba was a genocide thinks that the 2nd intifada was part of that genocide. One thing I agree with is the title: it should be "Palestinian genocide accusations" because there are more than one accusation of more than one genocide (or of a genocide with more than one set of boundaries or features). It's all very... complex. Levivich (talk) 18:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Hard to disagree. Removing the infobox sounds wise. — kashmīrī TALK 18:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- True, thanks for engaging.
- Just to say that this page is specifically accusations since 1948. It is difficult, but the if what you say is correct (“not everyone who says that the 1948 Nakba was a genocide thinks that the 2nd intifada was part of that genocide”) it does not mean that the date of this uprising did not host other events which could be listed under genocide. Hope I’m explaining myself well. The page for “a genocide of Gazans going on since Oct 7” is different: Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza.
- Also, I made some important edits, emphasising that these are only allegations. Do you think it is appropriate now? What would you change?
- If others are complicit, you could always add a complicit section?
- As for the stats, they are hard to find especially before 2000. Maybe more extensive research is needed.
- Scientelensia (talk) 18:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- What do you think about the infobox at The Holocaust, and using an infobox like that one here? (So, radically shorter.) Levivich (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- There the essential facts are well known and not (usually) disputed so it sort of works. Still think here it is just too...messy...for it to work. Selfstudier (talk) 22:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- What do you think about the infobox at The Holocaust, and using an infobox like that one here? (So, radically shorter.) Levivich (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Notes
- ^ Per the Gaza Health Ministry and Government Information Office.[32]
Sources
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- B-Class Israel-related articles
- Low-importance Israel-related articles
- WikiProject Israel articles
- WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration articles
- B-Class International relations articles
- Low-importance International relations articles
- B-Class International law articles
- Low-importance International law articles
- WikiProject International law articles
- WikiProject International relations articles
- B-Class Crime-related articles
- Low-importance Crime-related articles
- WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles
- B-Class law articles
- Low-importance law articles
- WikiProject Law articles
- B-Class Palestine-related articles
- Mid-importance Palestine-related articles
- WikiProject Palestine articles
- B-Class Death articles
- Low-importance Death articles
- B-Class Human rights articles
- Low-importance Human rights articles
- WikiProject Human rights articles
- B-Class Philosophy articles
- Low-importance Philosophy articles
- B-Class ethics articles
- Low-importance ethics articles
- Ethics task force articles
- B-Class Ethnic groups articles
- Low-importance Ethnic groups articles
- WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
- B-Class Discrimination articles
- Low-importance Discrimination articles
- WikiProject Discrimination articles
- Wikipedia pages with to-do lists
- Wikipedia requested photographs in the Palestinian territories
- Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel
- Wikipedia pages referenced by the press