Talk:Palm Tree, New York

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Extent?[edit]

So is Palm Tree coterminous with Kiryas Joel? If so, can we copy the Kiryas Joel demographic/geographic info here? john k (talk) 16:54, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

John K It depends from where the demographic data will be culled—the village or the town. Also I'm not altogether sure if this place will not only de jure be known as Palm Tree or if also de facto it will be so. I believe the answer to this should dictate upon which article emphasis be placed, per WP:COMMONNAME. StonyBrook (talk) 01:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? There is no demographic data on the town, as far as I can tell. What I'm asking is: is the town simply coterminous with the village of Kiryas Joel, or does it include additional territory outside the village? If it's coterminous with the village, we can copy the demographic data from Kiryas Joel, New York to here, since the two are identical. If it's not, obviously we can't. john k (talk) 11:52, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also not sure what you mean about de jure and de facto. De facto, the place is going to still be called Kiryas Joel. But the town, as a governmental institution, is presumably going to be called "Palm Tree." john k (talk) 11:54, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

John K From what I understand it is coterminous, until there ever will be an expansion, when the thing expanding will obviously be Palm Tree, not Kiryas Joel, which will probably remain a village within PT. The whole point of creating the town of PT in the first place was to municipally separate KJ, a village within the town of Monroe, from Monroe by inventing a new town. If there is no demographic data on the town as you say, then why include it in this article about the town? Further, your assertion that the place will still be called KJ strengthens my point about keeping all the data in the KJ article. Maybe this article about the de jure town of PT should remain as is, just a plain description of it as a new entity, with no embellishment. If it starts to enter the lexicon one day, maybe then the question can be revisited. StonyBrook (talk) 13:10, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion x 2.[edit]

1. Does the Town of Palm Tree occupy the same footprint as the Village of Kiryas Joel? Has Kiryas Joel been dissolved? Is this a case where, like in New York City, New York County is the same as the Borough of Manhattan, Kings County is the same as Brooklyn - the Town of Palm Tree is the same as the Village of Kiryas Joel?

2. "New York's first new town in 38 years, it was created due to conflicts between residents of the village of Kiryas Joel, New York, inhabited by the Satmar Hasidic community, and the municipality to which it belonged, Monroe, New York." - This is vague. Can you elaborate? What were the conflicts?

Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They are coterminous, for now, similar to the above examples. There are only a handful of other examples like this in New York State.

The conflicts emanated from the need of Kiryas Joel, which supported the largest percentage of population in Monroe on only 10% of the land, to annex territory on which to build multi-family dwellings. There was also friction due to the tendency for KJ to vote as a bloc, thereby influencing politics in Monroe to favor policies more friendly to them. I have edited the article to clarify some of this. StonyBrook (talk) 01:05, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So, is Palm Tree/Kiryas Joel a Coterminous town-village like Harrison and Woodbury?Inkan1969 (talk) 08:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See the discussion in Talk:Palm Tree, New York#Article amalgamation. StonyBrook _babble 23:40, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Town Justice[edit]

According to Orange County election results, there were many write-ins for TJ in 2018, and in 2019, there were regular candidates on the ballot. [PT-Justice-PDF (orangecountygov.com)], further, the NYS Court Syste has an entry for the Town Court of Palm Tree [Find a Court - Town & Village Courts (nycourts.gov)] Sir Joseph ^(talk) 03:11, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article amalgamation[edit]

Since it's clear the town and village are contemporaneous with each other, this article should be deleted and its contents put under a section in the village of Kiryas Joel. This would be in-line with other contemporaneous municipalities.

This article should be marked for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Piffner (talk • contribs) 23:01, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Piffner: There is still substantial text after the #REDIRECT directive. Please can an editor familiar with the subject un-redirect, merge, delete or otherwise deal with the content? There is more previous discussion in Talk:Kiryas Joel, New York#Question. Pinging contributors Cfortunato (Carlo) and StonyBrook. Thanks, Certes (talk) 13:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article was fine before you redirected it. IMO, it is OK to have two articles on this subject, since PT is distinct from KJ. MOS would probably not like a legal entity being redirected. I reverted for now, and let's see what others think. In addition, this is more on PT and the main history and how PT came into being. KJ is more on KJ. (If anything is duplicated, it should be removed from KJ.Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Sir Joseph's revert. I understand where the redirectionists are coming from, but here is why I disagree with them. Per one example from Coterminous municipality#New York, Harrison is not a good indicator of what to do here, since both the village and town name are identical, whereas here they are not. (I presume that Kiryas Joel/KJ, named for Joel Teitelbaum, was the first choice for the town name, in which case we might have had a similar situation to Harrison. But it did not happen, probably because the name is rendered in a foreign language; Kirya is Hebrew for city or town, e.g. Kiryat Shmona. There is precedent for avoiding foreign terms — while a few Dutch names were retained in New York in homage to the original settlers, such as Kill Van Kull, most other names, such as Breukelen, were anglicized by the British, or dropped altogether. In this case, the adopted name was translated from the surname into Palm Tree/PT, though I wonder why Joeltown, Joelville or something similar couldn't have been chosen instead — PT seems a poor fit for a northern climate. But I digress). There is the example of Kings County, New York, which is redirected to the coterminous New York City borough of Brooklyn even though Kings is an official county of New York State; this is probably due to the fact that the five boroughs of New York City are not subject to NY County Law. Be that as it may, PT is not exactly coterminous with KJ — it extends beyond its borders to include an additional 56 acres. This can be seen on Google Maps if one enters "Kiryas Joel, NY" and "Palm Tree, NY". It is not clear to me at this time if the village of KJ will expand inside the town of PT, into a neighboring town (such as Blooming Grove, which is possible by law), or even whether one New York town itself is permitted to encroach into another (I don't know, but the third scenario has no bearing on this discussion anyway). So therefore, since it remains to be seen whether or not KJ becomes a true coterminous vilage within the town of PT, and if so, which version becomes the WP:COMMONNAME, the status quo should be retained, per WP:CRYSTAL. StonyBrook _babble 23:35, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do the Town of Palm Tree and the Village of Kiryas Joel have separate governments? If they have the same government, then I think we call them one coterminous town-village. I tried to determine this myself, but neither entity has a government website online.Inkan1969 (talk) 14:43, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]