Talk:Palmetto Leaves/GA1

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: Awadewit (talk) 04:35, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Images

I'm starting the GA review with the image review - I'll add more regarding the rest of the article later. I thought you might want to get started on this boring stuff first. :) Awadewit (talk) 04:35, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~File:StowePainting.jpg - We need the source and, ideally, the engraver for this image.~~

~~File:St johns map.jpg - We need an author and source for this image.~~

~~File:Old Cudjo illustration in Palmetto Leaves.jpg - The author field should list the illustrator's name, if known. If it is unknown, simply list "unknown".~~

~~File:Gv000511.jpg - This image needs a description, a working source link, and an author.~~

I found the source and engraver for File:StowePainting.jpg, but it looks like the original here (bibliographic record here) at the Library of Congress is the mirror version of what was uploaded to Commons. Should it be replaced? --Moni3 (talk) 13:27, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think so - let's retain the integrity of the work! :) Awadewit (talk) 00:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

There is a mix of past and present tense throughout the article. I'm not sure that the mix of the literary present and the past tense to express the historical facts works. This may just be me, though.

With fewer than 200,000 people at the end of the Civil War, Florida's educational system was in shambles and one Northerner named A. E. Kinne noted there were fewer schools for white children than black children. - The connection between the low population and the educational system is unclear.

finding that the warmer weather encouraged production on two novels she was writing - "encouraged production" seems like an odd phrase

Her first weeks in Orange Park utterly transformed her - I'm skeptical of this hyperbolic phrase, even after the reading the entire article.

hey rowed to the eastern shore and Stowe fell in love with a cottage in Mandarin, attached to an orange grove capable of earning $2,000 a month ($30,390 in 2009). - This sentence almost suggests she fell in love with the money - do you want to suggest that?

both in writing and speaking engagements - Awkward - what is a "writing engagement"?

What travel writers published on Florida exaggerated many of their claims for audiences hungry for escapist literature. - Unclear who "their" is referring to

Palmetto Leaves was not Stowe's first travel memoir. In 1854 she published Sunny Memoirs of Foreign Lands about her first trip to Europe, in itself unique coming from a woman's perspective. - I don't think it was "unique" - hadn't there been other such travel narratives about European tours? I know that Mary Shelley had written two, Lady Morgan a few, etc. However, I don't know if there were any by American women about Europe.

She details watching sugarcane pressed into sugar crystals, going visiting with her elderly and obstinate mule named Fly, and discovering the myriad things to find in the woods and what can be made of them, listing palmetto leaves among these. - Awkward wording

humorously laments that the time when the lion shall lay down with the lamb has not yet happened upon her household - I'm not sure that using Stowe's language is effective here - at least it should be quoted if she uses this phrase. Also, "upon her household" is awkward.

I'm going to have insist on this one! Awadewit (talk) 01:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If Nature in New England is a strident and strict house-mother, in Florida she is more a lax grandmother who is unable to make up her mind about seasons, giving everything an untidy look. - Is this Stowe's language? If so, I think a quote would be more effective.

I'm going to have insist on this one! We can't use Stowe's language without quoting it. If this isn't Stowe's language, it is far too POV to be considered encyclopedic. Awadewit (talk) 01:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two strong women whose docility is less than Stowe is accustomed to are included. - Awkwardly worded

~~I think it is a bit strange to refer to Mr. Stowe as "The Professor" throughout the article - it seems to be taking Stowe's view of things.~~

Stowe herself descended into a childlike state after 1894 - Is there some specific disease that she might have had?

Organization and structure

In general, I felt that the article was about Stowe in Florida rather than about Palmetto Leaves. I think the historical context and biographical background has overwhelmed the article. I would suggest reducing some of this and reorganizing the article in places to help alleviate this problem.

~~I think there needs to be a brief description of the structure and contents of the book somewhere. I kept wondering exactly what the book consisted of as I was reading the article.~~

whom she referred to as "The Professor" - Is this fact relevant? It seems oddly placed.

~~The fourth paragraph of "Transformation and failure" doesn't quite fit into the section. The historical background seems a bit broad. Perhaps beginning with the details about Stowe would help?~~

I'm still wondering if the details about the South after the Civil War are really necessary. That paragraph seems to go into a lot of extra detail simply to say "Most of the white residents of Mandarin, however, were English immigrants who sided with the Union, and they welcomed Stowe warmly." Awadewit (talk) 01:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's interesting in that Stowe was a pariah in the South and the reason for the Civil War, but she still came down to live. It goes to what her reception was like...I hid it for now. --Moni3 (talk) 01:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)3[reply]

~~The "Publication" section does not actually state when and where and by whom Palmetto Leaves was published.~~

Was Osgood the publisher of the book? Awadewit (talk) 01:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

J.R. Osgood & Co was the publishing company. There's no link to the company, but there is to Osgood. --Moni3 (talk) 01:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The second and third paragraphs of "Duty and calling" seems more appropriate to "Background", as they are not about the book directly.

I still think this is the case. Awadewit (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph about the oranges in "Duty and calling" seems to have two topics: oranges and education. I would suggest splitting this up.

I still think this is the case. Awadewit (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then I haven't made a clear point. I don't think it should be split up because the hardiness of the orange tree was used as a symbol as Stowe's inspiration to persevere in her endeavors to educate emancipated slaves. What would you suggest I do to make this clearer? --Moni3 (talk) 01:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions: "and compares it to her task in Florida" - This phrase should be the transition between the "orange" material and the sentence about the organ and the "task" should be explicitly explained in this transition sentence. Also, the paragraph does not mention emancipated slaves - it seems to be more about the organ. Add a sentence or two about the slaves' education and the point will become clearer, I think.

Check that section again to see if I may have killed two birds with one stone. I also put some of Stowe's words about Nature into quotes. --Moni3 (talk) 13:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I still think that this paragraph is a bit confused - it is still difficult to follow the connection between the oranges and the education of emancipated slaves. Perhaps saying "her task of educating emancipated slaves" would help. Also, the reappearance of the orange material later in the paragraph is confusing. I'm not sure that sentence is necessary. Awadewit (talk) 18:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~The first paragraph of "Florida and daily life in Mandarin" seems like it belongs in the "Background" section.~~

~~I'm wondering if the paragraph about the seduction of Floriday and Puritanism in the "Reception" section might work better in the "Subject the themes" section.~~

~~I feel like much of "Post-publication" is not about the book, but rather about Stowe in Florida. I would suggest removing some of the material or reframing it so that shows the influence of the book.~~

I hope this is helpful. I'm putting this on hold. Let me know when you want me to re-review it. Awadewit (talk) 05:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me answer what I can now. I will be away for the weekend and some of this might be choppy:

Utterly transformed: From Wilson: "At Charleston she got a boat that went up the St. Johns. The three of four weeks she spent at Orange Park completely won her heart for Florida as a winter residence. The fact that she could in about a week of travel, step from winter into May utterly charmed her. She has never quite believed it until she experienced it herself; and she was to spend much time for a good many years to come trying to convince other Northerners, though with scant success, that they had a winter paradise at their doors."

From Thulesius: "Her rebirth was complete...Her husband Calvin chuckled and in his opinion she had found 'the Paradise described in the last chapters of Revelation, banning the alligators'." Thulesius addresses her transformation again later in the book (currently in the 4th paragraph in Reception and criticism) and specifically links this before and after view to her identity in Puritan forbearance and sacrifice attached to a cold New England, to a lax and drunken state that Stowe wrote about several times in the South. I guess in our era of taking 2 hours to fly from frigid to balmy, this is no longer noteworthy, but it seemed to be for Stowe in the sources I read. At any rate, her views on literature and religion began to change as expressed in the quotes in this paragraph.

Susan Eacker also notes the transformation: moving to the South made her re-evaluate her ideas about feminism.

Perhaps the problem is really that the type of transformation is not described at that point in the article. Perhaps describing the specifics of the transformation would make this better? Awadewit (talk) 00:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stowe's travel guides were unique: Argh. I can't get access JSTOR right now, but this is the author's view. Perhaps this meant specifically American travel guides about Europe, which I suspect, but I cannot confirm because my laptop is a poophead.

No specific disease has been attributed to the last 2 years of Stowe's life in any of the sources I read.

I was hoping that by referring to Calvin Stowe as The Professor that I could avoid calling him Calvin and her Stowe. I still don't know how to handle familial names when the main subject is a woman.

Would you like me to check something on JSTOR? I'm not sure what the crossed-out answer indicates. Awadewit (talk) 00:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about Harriet Stowe and Calvin Stowe? We did Mary Shelley and Percy Shelley, for example, in Mary Shelley. Awadewit (talk) 00:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oranges and education:I need to make this a bit clearer, although none of the sources really did: Stowe's ideas about going to Florida to educate former slaves were vague, idealistic, unplanned, and disorganized. She continued to work and write so she personally did not devote time and effort to educating freed slaves herself apart from Sunday school or intermittent visits. This is, at least, my impression. She was apparently extremely wealthy and supported efforts to do so by giving money. A couple articles declared her attempts a failure, as she said she wanted to set up a bunch of churches along the St. Johns. She helped set up one. I don't know what became of the school so much. A lot of the details about her plans were not documented apart from her letters. I think this goes somewhat toward the structure of the book, as it is an amalgamation of essays and letters. There seems to be no central theme, no movement or cohesion. Just a series of essays and letters about Florida, placed together apparently randomly. The letters are in somewhat of a chronological order, but except for her cats and the bird, what she addresses in one letter is not addressed again. I am new to 19th century literature, and this seemed strange to my 21st century sensibilities, but not knowing any different, I supposed that's the sort of way some books were organized. More specifically, she uses oranges as a symbol of the righteousness and perseverance of her ideal at least, of forming a school.

This is an extremely common structure. See Rambles in Germany and Italy, History of a Six Weeks' Tour, and Letters Written in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark. Awadewit (talk) 00:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Structure: I also have some issues with the organization of the article, and I am willing to restructure some of it. However, what little has been written about Stowe in Florida, and what has been written about Palmetto Leaves does not seem to make the distinction between literature only or a part of her biography only so I am hesitant to cut material out.

It is really the balance that is giving me pause. As I said, when I finished reading the article, I felt like still didn't have a good grasp on the book itself. I think a "Synopsis" or "Description of the text" section would really help this. Awadewit (talk) 00:45, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed some stuff in the article per your suggestions. I'll take some time this weekend to think on some of the larger issues, and hope to get hold of the article that referred to Stowe's travel writings. Let me know if you have further thoughts. --Moni3 (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some restructuring done, and am looking forward to discussing some of the above issues. --Moni3 (talk) 21:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should I reread the whole thing now or later? Awadewit (talk) 00:45, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not now. I'll fix the mirror image and some other issues tomorrow and leave a note here when I think I'm done. Thanks for checking back. --Moni3 (talk) 00:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did, actually, read Rambles in Germany and Italy, History of a Six Weeks' Tour, and Letters Written in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark while I was writing this. Of course, every article differs, which is good. This book has not been criticized thematically anywhere near the ones you wrote about, but instead used more in a historical context of post Civil War development and the beginning of tourism in Florida. What do you think of including a paragraph in the Publication section to describe the way the letters and essays are interspersed through the book, and renaming the section Description of text and publication?

There are twenty chapters in all that vary depending upon Stowe's audience. Chapters entitled "Buying land in Florida", "Florida for Invalids", and "Our Experience in Crops" are addressed more to general readers who may be considering moving to the region. Some essays are more directed to describing the best sights in the area, such as "Flowery January in Florida", "Picnicking up Julington", "The Grand Tour up River", and "St. Augustine". A more personal touch is included in chapters entitled "A Letter to the Girls", "Letter-Writing", and "Our Neighbor Over the Way" as Stowe describes intimate details about her daily life in Mandarin. Her observations of the state and characteristics of emancipated slaves are mentioned intermittently in letters and essays, but the final two chapters, "Old Cudjo and The Angel" and "Laborers of The South" are dedicated solely to this topic.

That seems logical to me. Let me know if you were thinking of something more. --Moni3 (talk) 13:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking of a bit more, but that might be personal taste. I think this would make an excellent addition - it would definitely have helped me understand what was in the book. Awadewit (talk) 21:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Give the article a whirl. See what you think, if there are still loose ends that need to be clipped and taken care of. The descriptions of Florida as a grandmother and a brunette go on for pages. I summarized. It would be one hefty quote. --Moni3 (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See above - the only issues I feel must be taken care of are the two sentences I highlighted as having Stoweian language. The other issues are debatable and probably would benefit from more opinions than simply mine. Awadewit (talk) 01:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to go ahead and pass this article, but I would suggest working a bit more on the structure and the paragraph organization before FAC, if you take it there. Awadewit (talk) 18:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]