Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 2
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Reply
I have already request you not to use word PATHAN for PASHTUN but I think you must be an Indian BHOPALI PATHAN *smile*
Don't forget, that was me who advise you to visit Khyber.org and will guide you to some other valuable sites also .... What you were insisting that Swatis as a tribe should not be on tribes list as Khiljis and Bhittanis are already there so Khyber proves you totally wrong as you have seen a tribe Swati with Khilji and Bhittani in Khyber.
You have mentioned that Family Tree was created in 15th century when Pashtuns came to that region, but for your kind information Pashtuns were already there from the time of Mehmood Ghaznavi and Mohammad Ghori as part of the Armies and Chiefs and try to concenterate on a word Pakhtunkhwa, Pashtuns were everywhere around far far back than 15th century. So who gave the newly come Pashtuns the authority to create a Family Tree for the older Pashtuns so as the ASPASIS (YOUSAFZAIS) were in Bajawar and Konar from the time of Hakha Manshi four hundred years before the death of Christ? Even thousand and thousand of Pashtuns were non-muslims in the time of Mehmood Ghaznavi.
I am still stand on my words, majority of Swatis belong to Khilji and Bhittani tribes, as far as Swati in Batani Tribe list I have mentioned before that is Khyber new research.(please see my previous article). Every Pashtun tribe is as important as me to mine.
Now point is, what would you say after seeing Swati as a seperate tribe in Khyber, when you were opposing it so rediculously ? The way you are discussing seems to be, do not believe in the unity of Pashtuns and Pakhtunkhwa in place of N.W.F.P . Just for you in Pashto " CHA KARE AKHPALA .... BIYA ... GILA SALA. *S*
Reply "5" to "202.142.186.2 -FINAL SUMMARY- Re: Swatis
The word "Pathan" has been around for hundreds of years. It is was used by the Moghuls and is currently how you refer to the "Pakhtoons/Pashtoons" in the subcontinent. Anthropologists also use this term profusely in their writings (like Dr Fredrick Barth). It is the usual term in the English medium. Throughout the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, English medium newspapers always descibed the "Pakhtoon/Pashtoon" of Afghanistan as "Pathans". "Pashtun" - in the English language that is - has only recently come into the prominence after Sept 2001 with the fall of the Taliban. Don't forget that the Late Ghani Khan used the word "Pathan" in all of his English writings (see his book: The Pathans), and he has done more for the Pathan cause than you ever will. If it was okay for him to use it, it's okay for me. A name is a name - after all. Why do you say "Angrez" in urdu and not "Englishman" . To say "Englishman" is not phonetically difficult in urdu. Likewise saying Pathan in English for the word Pakhtoon/Pashtoon.
Regarding Bhopali Pathans - there you go again belittling other Pathans ( first it was Kharoti, and now this. By the way this is very un-Pathan-like...but then agai n you would only know this if you were a Pathan) -all I can with surety is that at least they have a credible, non-debatable lineage on the Pathan family tree which is more than I can say for Swatis.
An English proverb for you: "People who live in glass houses should'nt throw stones." Or the Pakhto equivalent: "A sieve said to the kettle, "You have two holes."
To summarise: The discussion on the Swatis hetergeneity has come to an end: I stated WITH ORGINAL REFERENCES, that the Swatis have a questionable orgin regarding their Pathan pedigree by some authorities and are heterogenous by all accounts. None of the information you have provided, as the readers can see, disproves this and the discussion has therefore ENDED.
Insaaf
The term Pathan
I know some contributors have expressed the opinion that the term Pathan is not a proper term to refer to the Pashtuns/Pakthuns. I would like to suggest that we add the following right after the first sentence:
- The term "Pathan" is often used to refer to the Pashtuns. It is the Urdu/Hindi word for the Pashtuns and strongly disfavored by Pushtuns themselves.
What say?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 10:36, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Reply The term Pathan
I know in some cases that some Pashtuns from Afghanistan dislike the word "Pathan" since it signifies they are from "Pakistan" (and so "enslaved" or "Traitors" and traditionally Afghanistan wanted NWFP to be part of Afghanistan as it used to be before the British convinced the Amir of Afghanistan to sign it off to them in an attempt to "secure the Indian border" as a result of a Peace Treaty after the Second Afghan war in 1878. The British guaranteed the Amir of Afghanistan that they would not invade Afghanistan again if he gave them that "Eastern border area" - only to have another Afghan War in the 1920s!-the Third Afghan War.)
But Pashtuns from Pakistan, have no problem with it. For example the Late Ghani Khan who with his father Abdul Ghaffer Khan did alot for the Pathan cause, always used "Pathan" in his English writings. So if "Pakistani Pashtuns" didn't like it why did he use it?
What people get confused with is this if you are speaking in "Pashto", and you say he is a "Pathan" - then that is a word of scorn, implying that he a "slave of the govt." If you are speaking in Pashto, you would never say "He is a Pathan" but He is a Pashtoon". However if you are speaking in Urdu/Hindi or English, you can say Pathan and no-one will mind (as long as you are speaking in English/Urdu/Hindi), because that's "convention".
So in answer to your question, perhaps it would be appropriate to add:
- The term "Pathan" is often used to refer to the Pashtuns. It is the Urdu/Hindi word for the Pashtuns and NEVER USED BY THEM WHEN REFERRING TO THEMSELVES IN PASHTO. (I've capitlaised my suggestion).
Hope that helps,
Insaaf.
- I'd have no problem with that, but can I suggest instead:
- Joe - I feel it's a bit harsh to use the word "insult". For two reasons: firstly, if you go to graveyards in a city e.g Peshawar or Karachi, where you have both Pathans and non-Pathans, you will see written on the tombstones, in Urdu, the person's name, Pathan family name, e.g. Khattak and then "Qaum (i.e. tribe): Pathan". So its not that bad a word. Secondly, in Pashto if you said someone is a "Pathan" rather than a Pushtun, you are hinting that "he" is not one of "us" (where "us" would be "Pushtun", and how derogatory the word "Pathan" is then would depend on the context of what is being said and what is being inferred. So perhpas just leave "in Pashto, the word "Pathan" is taken as an insult", out.
- Insaaf.
- Fine. So when the article is unprotected, we will add "The Urdu/Hindi word "Pathan" was until the late 20th century the most common word in English to refer to the Pashtuns. However, this word is never used by the Pashtuns themselves when speaking in Pashto." -- Jmabel | Talk 21:10, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
Reply but not a Final One
If you are happy with PATHAN for PASHTUN than keep saying it because you are living somewhere outside the Pakhtunkwa and I can see some influence of them on you(like Fredrick Barth, Your Sir etc etc). If Indians and Britishers use the term Pathan then you will be much happier with some terms as SULEMANI for PASHTUN from Arabs and KHURASANI from Iranis, so now say it again it's OK what are we calling by different names by different Nations ... Pashtun is Pashtun, don't try to make it a dictionary for the whole World. Mr Anonymous it's our duty to rectify the matters like that otherwise they will soon be awarding us two or three more names *smile*. Now Mr Caroe again as he wrote a Book "PATHAN" and discussed PASHTUNS, that was such a big blunder with Pashtuns made deliberately just for their Political advantages as they knew they would not govern anymore so let them destroy into pieces through their names, that was just a term of their own liking otherwise no where else you would find term PATHAN not even from the MUGHAL AUTHORS. I will consider it a Joke with Pashtuns from Britishers. In reply of your Enghish Proverb, I am a very small human of my All Mighty ALLAH so how could I dare to throw stones even I know I live in a rental House(no further comments). Stop degrading MASHWANIS also. Just write, what your Sir had his views about them *s*. I think you didn't read my previous articles properly(I am reading you very carefully) like in Pashto "che ta sok na maney .. Ta ba ham sok na mani" Translation; If you wouldn't accept or respect anyone then nobody would respect or accept you also. It was me who wrote about Kharoti in their Pashtun box(click on Kharoti), It was me who wrote Kharoti is glowing on the main page in Tribes list. NOTE: But really sorry to say that is you, who is making changes on the main esp about Swatis claiming them Syeds, infact readers are well aware that Swatis have never claimed them as Syeds (which is ofcource a greater honor). Please don't invite the wrath of GOD by making these SINS. You mentioned your refereces about Swatis, MY REFERENCES have overcome on it, let readers to decide. Our discussions should be in a positve way not to hurt anyone. So what really you want to select "Repay in kind or attack in return" ? My speacial comments for you that People living In Pashtunkhwa from hundreds and thousands of years definetely would be consider Pashtuns, dosn't matter if they have migeratted from Arab or they belong to Aryans, It was HISTORY which make them united through LANGUAGE, CULTURE AND TRADITIONS (In short Pashtunwali), now you can easily find my point for Bhopali Pathans by their Culture, Traditions and Language, if they have forgotten their language it's OK, where rest of the Pashtunwali(Pashtun code of honor) gone? The ball is in your court now. From your side it's ended but I will be always here INSHA ALLAH because RESEARCH is open.
- See #Pakhtunwali below.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:31, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
=Re: Reply but not a Final One
- This is the misunderstanding - you are making the issue into a "geopolitical" one. No-one is saying that people who have lived in that area for thousands of years do not belong to that area. That part of the world is a mosaic of different ethnicities and tribes - you have Gujars, Rajputs and so on who have lived there 1000s of years - and they have a right to that region like anyone else. They still consider themselves not to be Pathans / Pashtuns despite the fact that they speak Pashto.
You must know that there are SIKHS who live in the Khyber Agency. There are HINDUS in Swabi - They still speak Pashto. There are non-Pathans in the Tribal Areas - and they follow Pashtunwali. But they are proud of their heritage. They still say we are not Pathans.
TheTajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras of Afghanistan have been living with Pathans - but consider themselves to be separate regardless of language and culture etc. Look at the topic from and anthroplogical point of view. Trying to see how the tribe (Pathans) interacts with other tribes (non-Pathans) and how they see the world. For a moment forget about trying to unite the different ethnicities into one "PashtunKhwa" or "Land of The Pashtuns" - that's taking it to a "political" level. Everyone is proud of their heritage - and they should be or better be.
- See #Pakhtunwali below.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:30, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
Reply not a Final One1
Dear Anonymous, Kindly send/write some authentic information about their Language, Culture and Traditions also (Gujars, Sikhs and everyone you mentioned). Are they strict on Pashtunwali ? Do they speak Pashto inside their houses also ?? What is their Mother tongue ?If the tribes you mentioned do speak Pashto outside with Pashtuns then atleast they are far better than Pathans(in your term) of Bhopal etc, who have forgotten their Language and everything. (No more comments for such a Golden Reply *smile*). *Khudai Pa Aman*
- See #Pakhtunwali below.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:31, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
Re: Reply not a Final One1
These are only some of my references - you ask a lot but never read them - Pukhtun Economy and Society: Traditional Structure and Economic Development in a Tribal Society (1980) by Dr Akbar S. Ahmed - and especially for you: Millennium and Charisma among Swat Pathans, Dr Akbar S. Ahmed (by the way this refers to the Yousafzai who now occupy Swat).
My question to you: on Wikipedia Pashtun article - why don't you allow the two view points of what is a Pashtun? Why don't you allow readers to make up their own mind - let them weigh up the evidence and decide. That's the whole beauty of Wikipedia, that you are given the opportunity to look at "both sides of the same coin," and not FORCED one viewpoint from one angle only.
Everyone else who has been contributing to the Pashtun page has no problem with the two definitions.
Second Question:
You wrote earlier:"My speacial comments for you that People living In Pashtunkhwa from hundreds and thousands of years definetely would be consider Pashtuns, dosn't matter if they have migeratted from Arab or they belong to Aryans, It was HISTORY which make them united through LANGUAGE, CULTURE AND TRADITIONS (In short Pashtunwali)".
Now, everyone who lives in that region practices Pashtunwali - including the Sikhs, the Hindus and the Gujars and the other non-Pathan tribes. What distinguishes one from the other is the EXTENT to which they carry it out. I.e. in a case of "Tor" ie. female dishonour where a boy and girl have eloped, the father will kill his son and the girls parents will kill their daughter, but a non-Pathan may not carry it out to that extreme (i.e. the mother may intervene and beg the father to spare the son/daughter)- although they can also.
My question to you is that if Osama bin laden stays in the tribal areas (just for the sake of argument assume he is there) - and if he follows pashtunwali - will he be the father of a "NEW" "Pashtun" tribe?? the Osama Khel?? This is what your statement is saying. It makes the Pathan geneologies a joke.
Insaaf.
Reply but not a Final One2
I have never here or any place else thrust my point of view to Friends, listeners, it's up to them to make up their mind. I have always discussed in a positive way to find the facts. But you are just trying to thrust your views on us.Poeple have equal rights to write/send whatever they like.
Yes It was History, which make them united through their LANGUAGE, CULTURE AND TRADITIONS. Do you have any single example in the history of the world, just one man has delivered a NATION, Qais baba had four sons namely Batani, Sarbatni, Ghorghust and Karlani(was not a real son), one of them was found under the Karai(Pashto word) since then they called Karlani? Now point is, can you see any mixing or purity about Karlani right from the begening in Pashtuns, the infant which was found might be a Turk or Tajik and Arab or whatever, definitely not a Pashtun because Qais baba had only three real sons, why will you consider Karlanis(which include Wazirs, Masuds, Afridis, Khattaks and Banuchis etc) as authentic Pashtun tribe even you know what you have your own views through different references ... or will you agree me, every tribe who have slowly and gradually converted and created Pashtunwali through evolutionary period would be condider Pashtuns? Every one around now have better knowledge that KARLANIS are much GREATER PASHTUNS as compare to others.
Will you please define a word you mentioned "TOR", If you meant a Pashto word, which is Black in English then you will be considered wrong because Pashtuns don't use the verb Tor for your above said crime (boy and girl), It is mostly used by Sindhis as "KARI" and "KARO"(black girl and black boy) for the above mentioned sin. We would simply call them like "Alak ao Genai Makh tor ka", We don't have to immitate terms from our Sindhi brothers. Try to be some positive about Pashtuns rather than mentioning these sort of talks.
What a man would expect of you who even don't like to write "Peace be upon him" with the GREAT GREAT GREAT name of Mohammad(Sallallaho Allaihi Wassallam).
Please don't try to switch and toggle here and there by asking such a rediculous querry like about "suppose, assume, think etc". Do you think the creation of a Nation is just an overnight game, It takes centuries and thousands of years through evolution, Osama Khel ?? *smiling*
You will be highly appreciated if you go to Pashtun main page and click on Bhittani, Barakzai, Khilji, Mahsud, Mohammadzai and Barakzai to fill those empty boxes with some bright side positive information about these great Pashtun tribes.
- Amen to that!—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 19:37, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
Reply "to "202.142.186.2 -Anonymous- Re: Swatis
AT LAST!
I am glad that you now will not delete views that are not supportive of your own view from the Pashtun article on Wikipedia. This whole discussion has been worthwhile!!! (P.
I am also glad that you now do look at tribal genealogy names to determine who is a "Pashtun" - this is why belonging to a TRIBE is important in being recognised asa Pathan - hence the Afridis and Yousafzai of Bhopal.
(...but there is a catch in your wording - why just "positive information??" - why can't we write controversial issues as long as we support them with references and let the readers decide. Controversial issues at least "peak" the readers interest and cause them to initiate their own research. This is the beauty of Wikipedia - is it not?)
Insaaf
Reply Bhopali Pathan
I am glad also to be catched but the point is what was I trying to catch, that was just for the sake of Pashtun tribes but "Spi lakai ba sama nashi"understandable if you are a Pashtun, otherwise consult your Pashtun friend if you are a BHOPALI PATHAN*smiling*
Reading/Writing need some virtuosity which I am sure you don't have. I think you will take centuries like what really happened in the past, slow and steady wins the race but the race is over, by taking that much time definetely you will become the father of another race like Canada Khel as same as Bhopal Khel ! There is always Tit for Tat.
Don't worry I won't delete/erase any material wether in favour or not, let readers to decide now.
Don't forget to visit us in future because "Never say Never Again". Take care PATHAN(another race).
Reply Bhopali Pathan -to 202.142.186.2
Language and culture can be learnt by anyone - as they say in Pashto:
"A dog's tail doesn't become straight, even if it is kept in a pipe for a hundred years"
There are many others, and I'm sure you know them. Sadly for you it's only now that you've realised what they really mean! REAL Pathans have known all along (as you can tell from the Pashto proverbs) that language and culture can be lost and acquired, but being able to trace yourself to the Geneolgical tree of the Pathans is what eventually counts regardless of everything - hence the reason why there are so many proverbs on this subject. (*definitely having the last laugh*)
Insaaf.
Reply
Thanks replying
Now what you doing is tilting away of our main discussion, we were trying to convince each other but failed then why don't we better let readers to make up their own minds, as tried to write the two most prominent views about pashtuns, one of them lineal defition as from one Progenitor like Qais Abdul Rasheed and second one is Cultural defition as hundreds of years of history in the relevant geographic area, who speak the same language(Pashto) and live in a similar manner.(Pashtunwali) Continue
The Pashtun tribe Swati has been proven through both from it's Cultural and Lineal definitions, the matter of include and exlude would not effect any more.
But incase of Bhopali Pathans you have just one way, the Geneolgical defintion, which you think is in favour to include them as Pashtuns, that's the reason why you insist on only one view. The language and calture can be lost and acquired but defentiely it will take atleast one or two hundred years if willing after that who will give them a certificate of as they are homogeneous not heterogeneous because living hundreds of years without culture and language with other Muslims and Non Muslim people of Bhopal, mixture will be quite visible.
- See #Pakhtunwali below.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:36, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
Reply to: 202.142.186.2
The purpose of this discussion was to allow the two definitions of "who is a Pashtun" to remain on the article page so that the reader can decide. This has now been met - end of story.
This debate has been going on in Pathan hujras for centuries and it would be foolish of you to think that it can be resolved once and for all on this discussion page. Just bear in mind all the proverbs to help you decide which definition is correct:
"When the donkey returns from Mecca it remains a donkey." Pashto proverb.
Reply
Dear Anonymous..... Yes that what I meant exactly, debate and discussion about Pashtuns were from centuries and it will keep continue due it's importance as an interesting subject but don't you think that should be in a delicate way rather than to defame anyone as majority of Western authors did in the past. Author like James W Spain, what she wrote esp about Pashtun Tribes like Afridis, Bannuchis and Dawars, she just looks satisfied with Yousafzais and few more tribes, that's what I am against authors like that who just tried and trying to let the World to see Pashtun vs Pashtun through discrimination. Atleast you would get my this point. If you do believe in Lineal way, that's your right but try to think on the Culture way also, in which I do believe in. I don't believe in the Creater, Originater, Inventor, Builder, Author, Designer, Founder, Mastermind, Maker, Planner and Father would be just one man for the entire Pashtuns or Pashtuns of his time(even in a limited area) had accepted him as symbolic Progenitor, which will be more suspecious for your accepted view, would go in favour of Cultural view.(same language, same culture etc).
For your interest a Poetry by Dr Yaseen Iqbal Yousafzai, hope you will enjoy it to translate. -- Haider 15:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Za sada Pakhtun yama -- Za sada Insaan yama
Na da khalaq pejanam -- Na la poye pa zaan yama
Yao lala Pathan krama-- Bal lala Afghan krama
Yao da LENIN yar krama--Bal the SHEIKH janan krama
Yao rata Patkey wahi --Bal rata sarbaz wai
Za ka zaan par na manam--Har maidan key mar shwama
Khudai Rasool ta wa goorai--Dumra me lag praigdawai
Khudai de dasey owaha -- Za de che sanga khwar krama
Poya pa har tiki yam -- Dost au Dushman pejanam
Za us rawaikh shwam -- Khog au khogman pejanam
Za us beena shwam -- Shal au kafan pejanam
Dumara lewaney nayam -- Nor me ba sok na wajni
Nor ba khwago kholo na zam -- Zaronoo kheeran pejnam
Za saada Musalman yama -- Toul imaan imaan yama
Za ba hum moskey shama -- Ghali shaan ba owayam
Na da bal watan yama -- Na da bal Jahan yama
Za saada Pakhtun yama
Za saada Insaan yama
These were few lines taken from Yaseen Iqbal's Poetry, you can find compelte of it in http://geocities.com/pashtopeotry/pukhtun/html.
Reply to: 80.255.41.42/202.142.186.2
I agree with you that James Spain is selective in his praise for certain tribes - but that is why I said in the beginning of this discussion that you should read several books and then "read between the lines".
However going back to Poetry - remember that poetry is written on the "spur of the moment" and is written "from the heart" i.e. emotional and therefore not always correct. It just makes an interesting read.
Proverbs on the other hand take time, decades, to develop and arise through personal experience . Proverbs are the distillation of "Wit and Wisdom."
As they say in an Arabic Proverb:
"If you want to avoid the mistakes, take heed of the proverbs."
Anyway as I said before - this discussion is now becoming pointless - it is two sides of the same coin. We should "agree to disagree."
Insaaf.
Reply
Humans without Emotions would be like a Robot, that's why as they say admire true emotions, above poetry as appreciated by a famous pashtun genuis Dr Habibullah Taizi. I will type for almost third time a Pashto proverb "Cha kare akhpala - Biya - Gila sala". We first and then some authors. It's look like they are driving Pashtuns wherever they want !!! Continue ...
I am quite knowledgeble to discuss on just these two theories about Pashtuns. Discussion has it's importance as transfer of views and knowledge aswell and it should never be end so it is very pointed rather than pointless.
Protected
Just in case anyone is wondering, the protection of this article was at my request because of the repeated anonymous deletion of material that every registered user active in the article seems to consider to be an appropriate consensus version. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:34, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)