Talk:Pat Van Den Hauwe

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I request this page be moved to Pat Van Den Hauwe. Given that the subject is Belgian, and the majority of Belgian people use capitalized "Van Den", this should be the preferred title. Google search [1] returns capitalization of different variations, and without any concrete evidence of preferring one form to another, we have to go with circumstantial evidence of using "Van Den Hauwe". Chanheigeorge (talk) 00:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A better choice for you would be some evidence on who is using various capitalizations, since you've said on WP:RM that both Pan van den Hauwe and Pat Van Den Hauwe are use. But, for example:

What do the teams he as played for use? Various compilers of statistics?
Are a significant portion of the "van den" results tainted by Wikipedia? Maybe you could compare Google searches with and without a -Wikipedia term; that is often quite illustrative of the problem of the distortions caused by what Wikipedia has used. Gene Nygaard (talk) 23:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if I can find any reliable source on this capitalization issue, because almost every British source is notoriously bad and random at capitalization regarding these Dutch and Belgian names. If he were actually a Belgian international then I'm sure I can find some reliable sources. Anyway, my biggest pet peeve is that people are constantly moving pages of Belgian people to non-capitalized "van" and "de" etc. without understanding that those names are different from those of the Dutch people. Chanheigeorge (talk) 07:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support An official profile at www.evertonfc.com gives Pat Van Den Hauwe but then a less formal piece on the same site uses Van den Hauwe. The RSSSF use Van Den Hauwe, and skimming around, most of the more credible sources seem to use Van Den. Obviously you have to be sceptical of any Anglophone source on this, but add the above to the fact that he was born in Belgium, and I'd be 85-90% certain that Van Den is the correct capitalisation. Not 99%, but short of asking the man himself, that's the way I would go. FlagSteward (talk) 22:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was planning to put an RMC tag here, but I see that the page has already been listed here without being added to the correct section on the Requested moves page. Thus, I'll relist this on the RM page, with a starting date of today. What follows is the discussion from the "incomplete" section at RM. Dekimasu よ! 11:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pat van den Hauwe → Pat Van Den Hauwe — Correct capitalization given his Belgian heritage. — Chanheigeorge (talk) 20:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Heritage doesn't really matter. How does the subject spell his own name? Please provide some evidence for the need for this move. — AjaxSmack 06:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - There's no way I can know how the subject spell his own name unless I ask him. Google search [2] returns capitalization of different variations, although "Van Den Hauwe" does at least appear commonly used. All I know is that Belgians usually capitalize "Van Den", and Dutch usually do not. This is a common mistake people make when they move page titles. Chanheigeorge (talk) 19:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - In that case, what is there is as good as any other choice, and there is no reason for a move. Gene Nygaard (talk) 14:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - If he were Dutch, and his page is currently Pat Van Den Hauwe, we would have move it to Pat van den Hauwe, due to the fact that circumstantial evidence points to the latter. In this case, he is Belgian, and circumstantial evidence points to the former. Look at Category:Belgian footballers. The page is currently titled as such due to the common misconception that "van den" should always be non-capitalized. However, this only applies to the Dutch, and as the subject is not Dutch, "Van Den" should be capitalized unless we have evidence of otherwise, which we do not. Chanheigeorge (talk) 20:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Actually, many forms are possible for Belgian names like this. See for instance nl:Categorie:Belgisch voetballer. The "V" is certainly capitalised, and if van, den and hauwe are not written together, so is "Hauwe". Possibilities are: Vandenhauwe, Vanden Hauwe, Van den Hauwe, Van Den Hauwe. Better find out how he writes his name himself. Markussep ^Talk 11:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        "Pat Vandenhauwe" [3] and "Pat Vanden Hauwe" [4] returns very few or no Google results. So those can be ruled out. It's either "Pat Van Den Hauwe" or "Pat Van den Hauwe", but definitely not "Pat van den Hauwe". Chanheigeorge (talk) 19:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment An official profile at www.evertonfc.com gives Pat Van Den Hauwe but then a less formal piece on the same site uses Van den Hauwe. The RSSSF use Van Den Hauwe, and skimming around, most of the more credible sources seem to use Van Den. Obviously you have to be sceptical of any Anglophone source on this, but add the above to the fact that he was born in Belgium, and I'd be 85-90% certain that Van Den is the correct capitalisation. Not 99%, but short of asking the man himself, that's the way I would go. FlagSteward (copied from Talk:Pat van den Hauwe by Chanheigeorge (talk) 23:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC))[reply]
  - No, I don't "have to be sceptical of any Anglophone source on this." The man has played his entire adult life in English-speaking countries and has represented Wales at the international level. If "most of the more credible sources seem to use Van Den," then that should be good enough to support the move. — AjaxSmack 04:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - You have to be sceptical of many Anglophone sources, because otherwise, you'd think "Robin Van Persie" or "Daniel van Buyten" are correct spellings. I'm just puzzled by the continued refusal to move this page because "not enough credible sources use Van Den." Well, the previous move from "Van Den Hauwe" to "van den Hauwe" was similarly done without enough credible sources, but unfortunately I cannot revert the move because of the stupid redirect edit. Chanheigeorge (talk) 02:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outcome[edit]

Y Moved per discussion. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 04:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.