Talk:Paternoster/Archive 1

Paternosters in England

I used the paternoster at Crawley College in Sussex in the seventies, we used to go over the top and bottom. Despite modern 'Nanny state' concerns they are quite safe, although It was stripped out and replaced with a conventional lift while I was there. The reason was that one of the arms holding the cars onto the chain had cracked and broken off on a similar lift elsewhere, causing a car to fall & crash into another one. The mechanical engineering department at the college had the actual broken part at one time. All similar lifts were examined and found to be potentially at risk so were scrapped. I would like to know if there are any working paternosters for use by the public, or in Hotels in england. Graham. mailto:gbartlett@tesco.net I have started a forum:- http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/paternoster/

16 storey Arts Tower at Sheffield Uni has one... in addition to standard elevators. I have heard many accounts of people becoming stuck between floors for extended periods (an hour or more) as the system is very unreliable. I'll never use it myself, and I would suggest the system is not fit for human usage. I doubt an elevator with this kind of reliability would be legal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.168.115.129 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 18 March 2005 (UTC)

We have one in the 18 storey Attenborough Tower at Leicester University (I believe it is the oldest Paternoster still in operation), in addition to a conventional lift. I do not know of anyone who has hurt themselves on it, it is also pretty reliable. Rje 15:14, 2005-06-13 (UTC)

I went to Sheffield University in the 1990s and while I was there one student broke their arm in the Arts Tower paternoster lift. I don't recall the exact details but I think the person in question was playing around to see whether the lift would stop if they put their arm in the way. (It didn't.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.252.0.6 (talk • contribs) 08:11, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

This article and everything I can find and all the images are of the type with compartments but the only paternoster I ever saw was much smaller. It was just a strip of cloth about two feet wide running around pulleys at the top and bottom of the building with rungs of metal about every four feet. You grabbed one rung and stepped on the next. One side went up, the other down. The foot rungs were sort of like the steps on a ladder and the hand rungs were just handles. I rode it up one floor, went around and rode it back down. It was in the Krebs biochemistry lab at Oxford University, this was around 1963. Mike Nassau (talk) 04:06, 14 January 2014 (UTC) I found the smaller type with no compartments is called a belt manlift and I created an entry for that title.Mike Nassau (talk)

In the late 1980s I was at Newcastle Uni and there was a paternoster in the Claremont Tower. This was taken out of service while I was there, after someone fouled himself on the drive chain and had to be rescued. All computing students were warned not to travel below the bottom floor or above the top floor but unofficially it was said that such journeys were possible provided one remained perfectly still. I made both journeys and noticed quite a lot of graffiti above the top floor, suggesting that others had been less careful. The lift was removed after someone managed to get stuck - see main article for the gory details :-) Rugxulo 00:10, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

There is a working paternoster lift in the pontecorvo building at glasgow university, it's used by the students and staff. I've gone over and under the pit many times and it's an experience for one to have a go in those type of elevators. But sadly i think it's days are numbered due to demolition being planned. It's 7 floors high and has 14 cars to serve those floors. I recommend it to everybody. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.136.141 (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2008‎ (UTC)

There was one in the Chemistry faculty at the University of Salford when I was there in the early 80s. It was a very efficient lift and I do not recall it failing once whilst I was there (which could not be said for the 'conventional' lifts elsewhere on campus). At start of new terms when we had new intakes of freshers and early in the mornings (when lecturers and students alike were half asleep and/or hung-over still)the Paternosters ran at a more slowly and then sped up to full speed by around 10 am. Students used to entertain visitors by travelling over the top of the paternoster and re-emerging standing on their heads. I did twice miss-step getting on and off and fall out but then again I did not fair much better with stairways which I also used to fall on - I had prior to going to Salford spent the previous 18 years living in ground floor flats so was little used to stairs. There was a chap at Salford who was wheelchair bound and he managed the Paternosters with great aplomb; he reversed into the lifts and then came out forwards. Very impressive. I did go over the top and underneath a couple of times for fun - akin to being on the ghost train as it was complete darkness at top and bottom. I hear the lifts were taken out some years ago. Great shame as they are by far the fastest and safest means of transporting lots of people throughout the floors of buildings. {{subst:unsigneIP2|03:34, 4 December 2015‎ (UTC)|78.150.226.214}}

Paternosters in Hungary

There was (and maybe still is) a Paternoster lift in Miskolc, northern Hungary, in the main building of the University of Miskolc (Miskolci Egyetem). I have seen (and even photographied it; sadly, I don't have this photo scanned) it at the end of the Summer of 1999. Critto

Is still in function - 84.0.230.67 (talk) 18:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Some Correction:

- One in the MÁV Hospital is no longer exist. It was replaced with two small conventional elevators a few years ago.

- There is one operating in the MÁV HQ at Kerepesi út 3. Budapest.

- Also, the former MÁV HQ at Andrássy út had one too, but i'am not sure whether it is still oprational or not.

Copyright problems

The text of this article shares a suspicious similarity with this page at a lawyer looking for potential clients from elevator accidents. I supspect they copy Wikipedia without proper acknowledgement, but it could be the other way round. Can someone of the regular contributors clear this up? --Stephan Schulz 17:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I can. I wrote it, they copied it. That this was done by a group of lawyers (!!) (motto: "what a law firm should be") is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever come across. <KF> 23:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. So do we just list it under Wikipedia:GFDL Compliance or is something else needed?--Stephan Schulz 06:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I am not a lawyer, but I really don't think we should do anything about it. Advertising legal aid for paternoster accidents (how many might there have been worldwide last year? 0.5?) and not even bothering to write one's own text is just amazingly silly. Personally, I'm more concerned about people thinking articles are copyvios and dumping the copyvio tag on them when in fact it's the other way round. It has happened several times over the last months with articles which I wrote back in the early days of Wikipedia. <KF> 08:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

incomplete........... complete it

Safety in Sheffield paternoster

The paternoster in Sheffield Arts Tower is perfectly safe. It is incredibely annoying when you need to be 10 floors up and non-Arts Tower students stand at the front of the queue giggling and shrieking "OH MY GOD!SO SCARY!" Yes, quite often it stops, but only for around of 6 seconds. It beeps three times, makes a siren sound for around two seconds, then begins to move again immediatley. Occassionally it breaks for longer, but the thickness of the floors is considerably thinner than the height of a paternoster cabin, so it is very, very easy to get out. The only way you could get stuck is if you were going "over the top" or "under the bottom". In neither circumstance would you be in danger, though. There are signs everywhere recommending that you don't take either of these routes and so if you do get stuck, it's completely your own fault. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.167.226.136 (talk • contribs) 11:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Have the Brits taken over this article?

It says somewhere in the text that paternosters can/could be mainly found on the Continent. So why is there a detailed description of almost every single pasternoster running somewhere in Britain? 131.130.181.71 11:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Editors are welcome to add details of any Paternosters they know of. Perhaps they are such an oddity that "we Brits" tend to remember seeing them, whereas as they are so commonplace in the Czech Republic, people there might think they are nothing special. JRawle (Talk) 13:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure but I think what 131.130.181.71 wanted to say is that in a general description of what a paternoster is and how it works any mention of a building that actually has one is out of place. So rather than adding yet more paternoster sightings, Czech or otherwise, we might add a new section below the general description listing paternosters which are still in use in various countries. That's what I, as the author of this article, would do. Any comments? <KF> 16:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Well it makes a change from the 'Yanks' taking over everything! It could be because this site is written in English and surprisingly we speak English on a regular basis in Britain, in fact strangely one of our member countries is even called England! Some people have suggested that the USA gets its language and even its predominant cultural origins from this tiny group of islands with its hitherto eclectic mix of Anglo-Saxon, Celtic and Scandinavian peoples!

Oh yes, I almost forgot, the first Paternoster lift/elevator that I saw (and rode) was in the University of Aston in Birmingham (UK) in 1966 and the last time was in Sheffield University's Arts Tower in 1968. I didn't realise that this latter installation was still functioning as I had read in the local evening newspaper that someone was killed there around 1971; allegedly after sticking their head out to see what happened as it went into the roof void at the top. The report said a yell and then a the sound of splintering wood could be heard before the system ground to a halt. This must have been the wooden valence that covers the gap between the cars and which produces a scissor action as it crosses part of the open front of the adjacent car when it goes over the top. Can anyone throw any light on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.52.5.10 (talk • contribs) 19:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Please don't refer to people from the US as 'Yanks'. That is a term for people from a geographically restricted area. It does not apply to people areas outside of the New England states which includes most of the country. Where I am currently living in the states it is seen as pejorative. Where I'm from it was just seen as ignorant.72.207.247.50 (talk) 05:51, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to burst your bubble, I understand what you are saying from an internal US perspective, but outside the US, any person from the United States, or the Government, or their corporations, can be referred to as "Yanks" or "Yankee" or variations such as "Yanquis". Linguistic usages and exonyms vary, sorry about that. It's hardly a unique problem. In English, both "Holland" and "The Netherlands" are widely used, to the annoyance of people from Drenthe. It gets worse, in chinese it is just "Her lan" ( borrowed from English ) - no alternative.Lathamibird (talk) 08:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

The line that references more paternosters on the continent than in the UK might as well say "here in the UK". When I read it, I got the distinct impression that the article was written in a very UK-centric manner. I'm not from the UK, but the article made it sound like that is the "normal" location of the reader. Can this be internationalised a little so it's not quite so UK-centred? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.48.44 (talk) 17:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

From the UK, and the article seemed fairly UK-centric to me as well - particularly the history section (that suggests they are more common in continental europe but then lists a large number created in the UK. These surely should mostly be in the list section only, unless there is something notable in the historical development of the device to relate that happens to have first happened in a UK location. --86.139.65.151 (talk) 19:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

"Fouled himself"?

What exactly do we mean by "fouled himself on the drive chain"? Can we rewrite this without the euphemism? Also, can we get a citation for this? --Doradus 10:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I just found this, but it is hardly evidence of anything. It suggests the accident happened to a female around 1973. --Doradus 10:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It really needs a proper citation. I don't think the source with "mangled to death" is reliable. Someone had changed "fouled" to "injured", but that changes the meaning. If someone is "fouled", it suggests they were caught in the drive chain, causing the lifts to stop. If it just says "injured", it isn't clear why the fire services would be required. Therefore I've changed it to "caught in the drive chain" and made the sentence gender-neutral. JRawle (Talk) 15:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This link suggests the current lifts were installed in 1990, which would fit in with the 1989 date of the accident in the current version of the article. JRawle (Talk) 16:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

My take on "fouled himself" is that he urinated/excreted on the drive chain - quite a different meaning to injuring oneself! 161.12.7.4 (talk) 11:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

I appreciate this explanation of a 'paternoster,' a word that mystified me when I discovered it in Günter Grass's Too Far Afield (Ein Weites Feld) a couple of years ago. I don't believe there are any in the U.S.

Sca 17:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I believe the explanation currently displayed in the article is wrong. See, for example, this edit. <KF> 12:54, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

See the discussion here. JRawle (Talk) 14:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Up and over

Any chance of seeing a video of an up-and-over? It does interest me somewhat. --86.139.64.25 18:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

Is there a source for the etymology given? The DUDEN German dictionary says the name comes from the similarity of the boxes on a paternoster to the beads on a rosary. —Angr 13:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and this article used to say this: "The name paternoster ("Our Father") has been taken from the first two words of the Lord's Prayer in Latin. A special bead on a rosary indicates that a Pater Noster is to be said, and from there the whole rosary and, what is more, anything resembling a rosary was referred to as paternoster." In the absence of any clear citation I am very surprised that the current version is there alone - I would have thought that if we can't find a reliable reference, we should quote both beliefs and make it clear that the etymology is uncertain. It doesn't really work that well to just have editors going "well I always thought it was X or Y" because, sure, I did - but that's hardly encyclopaedic. We should quote all beliefs, or none, if there's no good reference. 82.45.248.177 21:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

We had one of these in an office block in Helsinki, Finland in the 1970's. I was told then that the name came from the fact that you said the Lord's Prayer every time you used it! Midnight Sun JM (talk) 15:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

That's substantially more plausible than the rosary explanation. You pray you aren't killed by the damned device.  Randall Bart   Talk  01:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I rode one in the old IG Farben Building when it was the U.S. Army's "Abrams Building", and that certainly seems more realistic to me, but does anyone have a real citation for this, anywhere? 75.201.19.78 (talk) 03:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Fletcher Building

Can anyone confirm whether the paternoster at De Montfort University is still there? This article from their website suggests not. [1] I know the Fletcher Building has been extensively refurbished in the last couple of years, including the addition of something that looks like a lift shaft or stairwell. JRawle (Talk) 22:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not. It's been replaced by a short corridor with two regular lifts at the end. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.211.18.73 (talk • contribs) 13:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The Fletcher Building was demolished - as per this article in 2013

Advantages and Disadvantages

We may want to add a section on pros and cons of Paternosters. Besides the safety issues already mentioned there are:

• + Better throughput
• - energy consumption
  • need to move more mass
  • need to run at least through one full cycle if not constantly
• - inability to carry goods on trolleys etc
• + average speed to destination
• - waiting time

more welcome Sejtam 07:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure on the energy front... as in a no-load situation there's a presumably equal mass ascending as descending, it could almost be thought of as a misshapen wheel (or any other similar system, eg mine carts, swing bridges, streetcars) with the only energy expenditure being on friction, start-up inertia, and any actual loads carried upwards (downward ones contributing their potential energy to the total needed to overcome friction). A well oiled one would arguably be more efficient than a conventional elevator that has to do all the work against gravity on the way up (presuming a non-regenerative downwards motion). 82.46.180.56 (talk) 14:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

why would waiting time be a negative, there is hardly any wait time since a cart comes to your floor every couple seconds —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.148.124 (talk) 04:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Outside Europe? =

Hi, does anybody know some working (or formerly working) paternoster outside Europe? I've heard that there is none. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Đonny (talk • contribs) 10:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

They are still in heavy use at the Baldwin power plant in southern Illinois, mainly because they were integrated in to the design of the building, and no other solution would fit between the boilers.Boatman666 19:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Hitachi paternoster

Could someone give some more information about it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.139.88.102 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Hitachi "Circulating multi-car elevator" seems to have moved

is the new link for this now http://www.hitachi.co.jp/New/cnews/month/2006/03/0301.html ? Hitachi document ref NRD 06-0301 from the Hitachi Mechanical Engineering Research Laboratory 86.142.64.234 (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Fixed. Belated thanks for finding it! DMacks (talk) 22:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

paternosters in germany, esp. hamburg

hey ho! i am a complete newbie behind the scenes of wikipedia,
so i won't edit anything quite soon- just to prevent mistakes;)
is there someone willing to edit the paternoster in germany, hamburg?
theres only two of them mentioned.
i count at least ten which i regularly use doing my job as bike messenger,
and i do not doubt there might be more.

• Grindelberg 66 (authorities ›Bezirksamt Eimsbüttel‹ ): *one* or even more paternoster
• Axel-Springer-Platz 1 (Publisher ›Axel-Springer‹): i think even *three*
• Ballindamm 25 (shipping company ›Hapag-Lloyd‹): *one*
• Stadthausbrücke 8 (authorities ›Stadt-Entwicklungs-Behörde‹): *one*
• Trostbrücke 1: *one*
• Rathausstraße 7: *one*
• Deichstraße 29: *one*
• Steinhöft 11 (office block ›Slomanhaus‹): *one*

i'd be grateful if someone being a bit more experienced than i am ;)
was so kind to make the effort of counterchecking if needed and editing the article?
thank you very very much!

questions? hni1980-wikipedia@yahoo.com

-- Kiwi kirsch (talk) 20:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Paternoster at Aston Technical College

The main article makes reference to a parternoster at Aston University (which I believe was originally known as Aston College of Advanced Technology or CAT). I wonder if this reference is correct or whether it is referring to the parternoster that was installed at the main building of the re-located and re-named Aston Technical College in Perry Barr, Birmingham. This building was constructed and occupied by students in the mid 1960s', (probably around 1965 or 1966) and became the North Birmingham Polytechnic seemingly coinciding (probably) with the elevation of the CAT to University status. The building is now part of the Birmingham City University (formerly the University of Central England).

John Earl —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsearl 98 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I was specifically referring to the buildings around Corporation Street, Aston; opposite what was the central fire station. It was a CAT and it became Aston University; and I visited it once some time between 1968 and 1972 - I remember the Paternosers. I'm aware of the Perry Barr site, but I did not visit it; I did however visit on numerous occasions the South Birmingham Technical College which I think is now called Cadbury College.Pyrotec (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The only time I have used one of these strange conveyences was some years ago at the Perry Barr site when it was still Birmingham Polytechnic.I did`nt like it.94.196.41.118 (talk) 23:55, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

prayers, "oh my god!" etc

Cut out: An alternative derivation claims the name derives from the prayer passengers utter when stepping onto the seemingly dangerous device. Please don't put in anything similar again unless you have a decent citation. Yes, it's droll, and yes, you feel smug when you notice and invent it for yourself (I certainly did!) but it's no fact! 87.112.53.174 (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Safety? Shearing? Edge clearance? Pushbutton to board? Wheelchairs?

1. What sort of safety mechanisms are used in these to deal with pinching of objects between the stationary wall and the moving platform? DMahalko (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Safety mechanism? What safety mechanism? You're supposed to keep your wits about you when riding a paternoster.WackyBoots (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

2. Does the moving platform completely fill the shaft area or is there normally an open gap along the front entry side, through which objects may fall unhindered from the top of the shaft to the bottom? Are stiff-edged plastic brushes used to fill the gap, if any? DMahalko (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The gap is fairly tight. I suppose you could drop a coin down if you tried.WackyBoots (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

3. Are there any safety mechanisms to prevent pinching or crushing between the rising platform and the lip of the stationary ceiling/floor opening? Is emergency reversing possible if a crush-event is detected? DMahalko (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The paternoster I used to ride on had hinges behind the edge of the ceiling/floor opening, so it would just flip up if something hit it.WackyBoots (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

The paternosters in the I. G. Farben Building (once known as the Abrams Building) in Frankfurt, Germany had hinged extensions on both the stationary entrances and the cabin floors. If toes extended over a gap the extension would flip up to avoid injury.--Gaarmyvet (talk) 18:09, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

4. The problem of possibly being injured when going over the top or bottom seems ridiculously simple to solve. Electric-eye detection systems have existed since the 1960's. It would seem a simple matter to have an array of multiple detection beams across the forbidden travel path, to halt or reverse the platforms in the event an object is detected going past the top or bottom and send out an alarm to building/facility security. DMahalko (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Why that? You can just stay on, nothing bad happens, the cabin does not flip over. The paternoster I used to ride on even had a sign at the top and bottom that said "Weiterfahrt ungefährlich" (traveling further is not dangerous). I tried it once and the whole event was rather unimpressive.WackyBoots (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

5. Is there such a thing as a boarding pushbutton, which would bring the next platform to a stop for a few seconds, to permit level boarding without a step up or step down? DMahalko (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course not. That would be stupid. The whole point is that a paternoster is faster than the stairs or a conventional elevator if you're just going 1 or 3 floors. The reason it is faster is because it DOES NOT STOP.WackyBoots (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

6. Is wheelchair access, or handicapped access with a walker, cane or crutch, in any way possible? Or is this transport system exclusively for the use of fit, able-bodied people, capable of standing the whole time? DMahalko (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course not. Paternosters were not designed for that. Paternosters were for administration buildings back in the days when everything was done on paper and people often had to move papers and files from office to office. They sped up traffic for those who were able-bodied (and most people are). Essentially, e-mail has made paternosters obsolete. The paternoster I used to ride on was right next to a conventional elevator that could handle the other traffic.WackyBoots (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Non-British view

This article seems to have a very UK-centric viewpoint, especially as it says that they were more popular on the continent. Overall it could do with a bit more expansion and clarification. It says things like Pardernosters are now illegal to build -- but it doesn't say where or when. I am left to believe that it is the UK where they are illegal. Also it would be great if the discussion of these included outside of Western Eurasia. 72.207.247.50 (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Embedded lists

Didn't want to mar the page with the above tag, but I do believe this article should stick to being an article, and not a giant list of surviving paternosters. That whole section should be split off into its own separate list, such as List of paternosters or something similar. Likewise with the pop culture trivia section. -- œ^™ 06:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC)