Talk:Pauline Viardot

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Name problem[edit]

_ _ My opera informant agrees with the surname-relevant events recounted here, but finds "Garcia-Viardot" totally unfamiliar, and of course she sang as Pauline Viardot (which should probably be the article title under our naming guidelines, and will probably become so soon if not contested.)
_ _ Main issue: cleanup inconsistencies w/in article, and describe if not explain the odd construction Pauline Viardot-Garcia in her case.
--Jerzy•t 20:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
GTests:

541 of about 14,000 for "Pauline Viardot-Garcia" [This is inflation rate (on the available 1K hits) of 459/541 = 84%.]
185 of about 510 for "Pauline Garcia-Viardot " [Inflation 325/185 = 176%]

with the twice-as-high inflation rate arguably reflecting disproportionate effect of the WP article's existing title, due to wide use of that article.
This establishes a strong presumption that the title is in error; barring evidence to overcome that presumption, i will soon rename & clean up name in the text if no one better qualified steps up to the plate.
--Jerzy•t 08:24, 27 & 17:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How's this hist'l note from Harvard Library file on her for authoritative:

Pauline Viardot-Garcia (1821-1910) was one of the most celebrated French mezzo sopranos of the 19th century, and a truly cosmopolitan woman artist. The collection reflects all aspects of her life: firstly as a singer, composer, and teacher; secondly as the mistress and muse of Ivan Turgenev (1818-1883) whose papers she guarded after his death; and thirdly as the center of a large circle of friends, entertaining and collaborating with the intellectual and artistic elite of Paris, and, indeed, of Europe. Her support and friendship inspired Hector Berlioz, Johannes Brahms, César Franck, Jules Massenet, Giacomo Meyerbeer, and Camille Saint-Saëns to write major works for her. Other close friends included Frédéric Chopin, Gustave Corot, Gustave Doré, Heinrich Heine, Franz Liszt, George Sand, and Clara Schumann. Many of them enjoyed the warm hospitality and happy family life that included Pauline Viardot-Garcia's four talented children. See: April FitzLyon. The price of genius; a life of Pauline Viardot (London, 1964).

(Copyright explicitly noted; discuss but don't quote in article.)
--Jerzy•t 01:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Loose notes[edit]

(Maybe already covered:)
Look into The Price of Genius & menage with Turgenev, with short-story-a-clef "A Month in the Country"(?) documenting it and the servants bringing both dying men's beds onto stair landing so they could embrace before Turgenev left the house to avoid her being alone with a man she wasn't married to once her husband died.
"Never sing for free", illustrated by her insisting on a fee to sing at Chopin's funeral.
--Jerzy•t 20:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Name problems[edit]

I understand your name problems. But today I moved the article from Pauline Garcia-Viardot to Pauline García-Viardot and some other Garcías (of this family) too. Gerhard51 22:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:Grove and most other decent references refer to her as "Viardot-Garcia", not "Garcia-Viardot", although the latter form is found in various places. I suggest we move it to "Pauline Viardot-Garcia", with a redirect from "Pauline Garcia-Viardot". The accented "í" in García is no doubt correct Spanish orthography, but she was born and grew up in Paris and I think most people would have used the unaccented version "i". I've rarely ever seen the accented version in references. My proposal is:

  • move it to Pauline Viardot-Garcia, and
  • have redirects from Pauline Viardot-García, Pauline Garcia-Viardot and Pauline García-Viardot. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More on the accented "í". Grove V, vol. III, p. 563, in a footnote to their article on Manuel del Popole Vicente Garcia, says:
  • The correct Spanish spelling of the name is García, but the family dropped the accent at some time, probably when its members began to become known abroad. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Slonimsky (Baker's Dictionary) also has it as Viardot-Garcia (no accents). Gerhard51, you never explained why you moved it to García-Viardot, and as far as I can tell, that is not an appropriate title. I will be requesting admin support to move it back to Viardot-Garcia. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above posts have been moved to "Requested move to Pauline Viardot-Garcia" below. Further discussion on this topic should take place there. -- JackofOz (talk) 14:01, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Appearance section suggestion[edit]

As a feminist, I object to some of the wording in this section:

Shockingly enough, Pauline's appearance, or lack thereof, apparently had no effect on her famed popularity with the masses and men in particular. She was widely pronounced as "strikingly ugly" or "atrociously homely," with dark and crude features, hooded eyes, a receding chin, a wide mouth with a heavy underlip and an H-shaped figure in a time when Italy adored beauty.

"Shockingly enough" and "crude" sound like judgements, not facts; and the word "beauty" at the end also expresses a judgement as to what beauty consists of.

Also, "famed popularity" is redundant.


I suggest rephrasing. Perhaps:

Pauline was widely pronounced as "strikingly ugly" or "atrociously homely." She had dark and coarse features, hooded eyes, a receding chin, a wide mouth with a heavy underlip and an H-shaped figure in a time when Italy adored delicate features and curved figures in women. Perhaps surprisingly, Pauline's appearance apparently had no effect on her popularity with the public in general and with men in particular.

Changing the sentence order puts "surprisingly" into context. The historical context explains why one might find it surprising that her popularity was undiminished by her looks.


Jessibird 21:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Appearance (again)[edit]

The italicized portion of this sentence -- "After her sister's death, Pauline was assigned to take over as a professional singer, never mind the fact that she had a flawed, second-tier voice and subpar looks" -- is POV (not to mention rather unkind, at least without a citation). Am removing. Dblanchar (talk) 13:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compositions[edit]

I added a new section on Compositions, with references to her songs, violin-piano, and her opera and operetta. I hope that a scholar will add more information and citations on her opera and operetta. Oconnell usa (talk) 16:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Composer project review[edit]

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is barely B-class (from a composer biography perspective); it is missing a fair amount about her composing (including, as Oconnell notes above, a more comprehensive listing of her compositions). My detailed review is on the comments page; questions or comments should be left here or my talk page. Magic♪piano 14:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move to Pauline Viardot-Garcia[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move to Pauline Viardot. JPG-GR 17:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've initiated the process to change this to "Pauline Viardot-Garcia". My reasons and evidence are shown below (copied from "Name problems" above). -- JackofOz (talk) 14:01, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Grove and most other decent references refer to her as "Viardot-Garcia", not "Garcia-Viardot", although the latter form is found in various places. I suggest we move it to "Pauline Viardot-Garcia", with a redirect from "Pauline Garcia-Viardot". The accented "í" in García is no doubt correct Spanish orthography, but she was born and grew up in Paris and I think most people would have used the unaccented version "i". I've rarely ever seen the accented version in references. My proposal is:

  • move it to Pauline Viardot-Garcia, and
  • have redirects from Pauline Viardot-García, Pauline Garcia-Viardot and Pauline García-Viardot. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More on the accented "í": Grove V, vol. III, p. 563, in a footnote to their article on Manuel del Popole Vicente Garcia, says:

  • The correct Spanish spelling of the name is García, but the family dropped the accent at some time, probably when its members began to become known abroad. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Slonimsky (Baker's Dictionary) also has it as Viardot-Garcia (no accents). Gerhard51, you never explained why you moved it to García-Viardot, and as far as I can tell, that is not an appropriate title. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hmm... I am using Grove Music online which simply lists her name as "Pauline Viardot" in the search results and then "Viardot [née García], (Michelle Ferdinande) Pauline" at the actual article. The Oxford Dictionary of Music gives her name as "Pauline Viardot‐García". Both sources include the accent, as does Encyclopedia Britanica. I would support changing it to "Pauline Viardot‐García" per Oxford or simply "Pauline Viardot" per Grove.Nrswanson (talk) 19:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. How, then, would we account for Grove V's footnote? I've already included that in the article in the "Usage note". I suspect this is one of those cases where, in real life, she was referred to as A in one place (a banner for an upcoming opera, for example), as B the next time, as C the next time, and so on (where A, B, C etc are examples of the at least 11 variants I've identified). Some contexts hyphenated the words Viardot and Garcia (in whatever order), some didn't. Trying to find the most predominant spelling is probably pointless, because many sites copy from others (and many have already copied WP's current formulation, which places the Garcia before the Viardot, something very few independent sites do; most have it the other way around). We may have to rely on reference sources we consider authoritative - but even there, they differ among themselves. I suppose I'd be happy with almost any version that has the Viardot before the Garcia, but Grove's footnote still troubles me in relation to the accent. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is tricky. Perhaps "Pauline Viardot" would be the best title (it handily avoids using the accented García and the word order issue). We could then have a prose section on her name and the various uses there of.Nrswanson (talk) 22:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. That neatly sidesteps the issue. Works for me. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:13, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in agreement with the above, but shouldn't the Requested Move be altered (or re-requested, or whatever) before an admin steps in and moves her to Pauline Viardot-Garcia? (Is it certain that the move can only be done by an admin or could one of us do it?) --GuillaumeTell 22:16, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Try it and see what happens. Normally the closing admin will read the entire section and see that you agreed to Pauline Viardot instead of the original proposal. It is very common for such revised changes to come about during move discussions and are expected. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 01:07, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I was the one who raised the issue, so I took your advice. It didn't work. I guess we'll have to wait for an admin to come along, or maybe let them know it's been resolved and can they please move it. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    All done now. I've amended the article to reflect the name change, and added a section at the front, about the various variants of her name. Good outcome, and thanks to everyone for their contributions. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:45, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Photograph of the subject[edit]

The memoir Musical Memories by composer Camille Saint-Saëns, now public-domain, contains a chapter on Viardot including an illustration of her in her later years. The book is available as Project Gutenberg etext #16459. This could be a useful source, and the illustration might be a good addition to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnificat (talk • contribs) 13:14, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Pauline Viardot/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
;Composers Project Assessment of Pauline Viardot 2008-12-4

This is an assessment of article Pauline Viardot by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

  • ok

===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • good, but hard to tell when she started composing

===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • good, but relatively few specifics on her composing

===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

  • A partial list of compositions is given

===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

  • Her singing is well-covered; composition, not so much.

===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

  • Article is well-illustrated; no sound.

===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

  • A few inline citations; no reference section. Article is tagged with {{refimprove}}.

===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

  • "Further reading" is out of place (below References). The lead might use some more bulk.

===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===

  • Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE)
  • Article footer material needs organization (WP:LAYOUT)

===Summary=== This is a biography about an interesting 19th-century woman who was primarily a singer. The biography is sketchy on her composing; more could be said about it; when it began, with whom she collaborated (when she did), when her notable works were written, how/when they were inaugurated, how they were received. Her compositions are not all listed; if her works have been recorded, a section on the records would also be useful. (It seems unlikely her voice was recorded, but if so, that would also be a coup.)

The article has some minor structure issues; the "Further reading" section is misplaced. The article should have more inline citations, and is already tagged as such.

Article is B-class, but needs a fair amount of work to improve. Magic♪piano 14:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 17:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 02:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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