Talk:Peppermint Patty/Archive 1

Apocrypha

Charles Schulz named the character after the York Peppermint Pattie, and in response the makers of the candy, Peter-Paul (later Peter-Paul Cadbury) ended up being one of the exclusive sponsors (along with McDonald's and Dolly Madison) of the animated Peanuts television specials on CBS in the 1970s.

I'm pretty sure this is apocryphal. Schulz always said that the character was named after a dish of peppermint candies; also, I don't think the York Peppermint Patty came along until well after 1966. I'm changing this until I can find out elsewise. --RMc

The York Peppermint Pattie actually came out in 1940. [1]

According to the official website as cited in the above article [2], the candy was around in the northeast starting in 1940, but did not go national until 1975. However, their site says nothing about sponsorship of any "Peanuts" specials, although the absence of any such comment does not prove anything either way. Wahkeenah 11:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"straight" characters

there is no information in the comic strip to demonstrate that neither Patty nor Marcy is interested in other girls. This is not proof that they are lesbians, and it is not proof that they are specifically straight. Additionally, "family-oriented" doesn't add anything to the description of the strip or of the characters as there are, to borrow the cliché, as many types of families as there are families, including families with gay and lesbian members. The word fanciful is inherently POV. Dave 06:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• The only hint of romantic interest Peppermint Patty shows is towards boys. To say they are "never portrayed as lesbians" is a slyly-stated POV in and of itself. To say they are "only portrayed as straight" is truthful and NOT a POV. And if you don't get what I mean by "family-oriented", you are also in denial. Wahkeenah 13:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Cultural differences between the 1950s and today have changed the way lesbianism is portrayed in the media. A character's being tomboyish was a typical way of showing that there might be other ways in which she was not typically feminine according to normative social roles. "Family-oriented" as you used it is loaded to the brim with POV, and if you don't see that, you are in far deeper denial than I.

Also, as a side note, Marcy never exhibits any interest in any boys (that I can remember, anyway) and does in fact exhibit a fairly deep devotion to Peppermint Patty, which Peppermint Patty certainly does not discourage. Dave 17:25, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I am fully aware that modern times have brought both homosexuality and the sexualization of children onto the front page, neither of which have anything to do with Schulz's comic strip. If someone else wants to infer lesbianism from the work of a deceased artist, they are treading on dangerous ground. And by the way, these topics are not nearly as comfortable and mainstream as you Coastal types like to think they are. Wahkeenah 17:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm pretty sure there's a strip in which Charlie Brown is in the hospital, and Peppermint Pattie and Marcy sit outside on a bench looking up at his window, and Marcie says something about loving Charles (the article even references this). But in any case, I think the whole straight vs. gay thing is kind of dumb. 8-year old kids are generally not really either. They're pretty asexual, and the Peanuts world is about as non-sexual as it gets. I fail to see how "never portrayed as lesbians" is even slightly POV. I would hesitate to call them "straight" though, as it gives the impression they've reached a level of sexual maturity which they haven't. The only thing in question is the seriousness of their respective crushes on Chuck. However, that others have characterized them as lesbians is also pretty well established, but, as the article says, there is no basis for this in the strip itself. -R. fiend 18:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

And the boy wins a gold star! You get the point exactly. FYI, the reason I call "never portrayed as lesbians" a POV (as it was previously worded) is that it implies that they should have been, and that Schulz was hiding that behind 1950s sensibilities. Maybe so, maybe not, but its risky to try to read someone else's mind, especially once they have departed this earth and can't respond. Wahkeenah 18:38, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem here is that these are characters who have reached their full sexual maturity (in the context of the strip, they're never going to get any older) and that they are also characters who establish some level of romantic relationships within their peer group. Gender is a factor in these relationships, and thus, sexual orientation becomes a question. The last sentence you added there about "other romantic interests depicted in Schulz's comic" probably belongs in Romantic relationships in Peanuts rather than this article, which is about a specific character.

Further, you're reading too much into the statement that they were never portrayed as lesbians. Certainly the fact that some people read Marcie and PP's relationship as romantic means that the point should be made on Wikipedia. This was never explicitly stated in the comic, but the interpretation is there. "They were never specifically portrayed as lesbians" is a great way to cover all the bases here, from Schulz to contemperary lit theorists. Nobody's trying to read anybody's mind, just listing different interpretations of the relationship between two fictional girls who are portrayed as not fitting in with societal gender norms.

Last, the mention of PP and Marcie's age/sexual maturity in the article ("lesbian relationship between the two pre-adolescent children") is so POV it's painful. I'm going to remove it, and if it comes back, it needs to be applied to all mentions of her romantic attachments, so we'd have to say that she has a crush on a pre-adolescent boy. If one's going to sound prurient, they all should. Fact of the matter is that none of the relationships in Peanuts are, but I'll go with whichever side of that you think is best.

Final note, the word straight does not belong in quotation marks. Dave 19:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm waiting for you to put forth the argument that Bert and Ernie were gay, too. It's best to just take it all out, since it all started with some stray reference to PP and Marcy which was made on some comedy show. The Bert and Ernie story, similarly, originated in a joke on "Saturday Night Live". If you want to write a separate article about people's various imaginative and baseless interpretations of PP and Marcy either as satire or as "pushing the gay agenda", feel free. Wahkeenah 19:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

That's a good point. Check out the Bert and Ernie article. There's information similar to this there. Dave 20:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Alrighty, then, although you insist on keeping the lesbian joke about Peppermint Patty, I think you've put sufficient hedging in it to neutralize it. Wahkeenah 20:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the article is fine as is now. The Bert and Ernie article mentions the gay allegations; I see no reason why this shouldn't do likewise. The important thing is that the article states that Schulz never portrayed them as such. If anything my complaint now is too much emphasis on Family Guy, but (much like the Simpsons) references from that show seem to weasel their way into every other conceivable article. -R. fiend 20:08, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You're not wrong there. However, a quick Google search for the string "Peppermint Patty" lesbian gives over 20,000 results. There's go to be something else in there that could be used as a good reference. Dave 20:17, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Joke? It's not funny, and I don't think she's a lesbian. I just think that minority opinions need to be expressed, just like the Wikipedia policies say. Dave 20:17, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

The fact that 20,000 websites say she's a lezzy don't make it so. I betcha not one of them is signed "Charles Schulz", and he's the only one who knows for sure, since he created the characters. The others are just projecting their wishful thinking on the character, nothing more. Wahkeenah 20:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

No, but that does make it an interpretation of the character that bears mention. Dave 20:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Pettermint Patty and Marcie are best friends, not lesbians. Both Patty and Marcie share a secret crush on Charlie Brown (actually, it's not even a secret). Let's keep this a family page, will ya? 71.111.209.99 18:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Family Page? Does a reference to homosexuality make it an adult page? I think the truth that homosexuality exists and that Peppermint Patty and Marcie are sometimes portrayed as lebians not by Charles Schulz but usually in form of parody of the strip or in trying to construct homosexual icons from popular characters in culture, should be mentioned in the text. By any means. --217.232.110.75 (talk) 15:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I remember Chris Rock doing a monologue on "Weekend Update" where he summed up character traits in Peanuts and at one point said "Peppermint Patty's a lesbian." I believe I kind of gasped and as I recall it felt like some in the audience were uncomfortable with it as well. Although I imagine the idea predates him it's the first time I heard it. As for tomboy characters in the 1950s I rarely think that was to imply lesbianism. I think more often it was a way to have a girl character be athletic and independent as those things weren't deemed appropriate for girls. Nowadays acting masculine isn't necessary for a woman to be accepted in most any job or sport. She can be in the women's hockey team and still do advertisements for L'Oreal if she has the looks or desire to. Although it might survive a little for women in fields like boxing or construction work. On another issue weren't Peppermint Patty's parents divorced? It seemed like I read it was one of the first attempts to do a family-oriented series with a child of divorce.--T. Anthony 08:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I cannot believe that people are discussing the sexuality of a cartoon character! By the way does Bugs Bunny seem to have a hint of mint? Cr8tiv 20:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

There is some legitimacy to this debate, but only in a very specific sense. There is no in-canon evidence that Peppermint Patty and Marcie are lesbians. However, according to the Michaelis biography, the characters are in fact loosely based on a real-life lesbian couple of Schulz's acquaintance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.161.243 (talk) 05:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Fomat

I called the part about Peppermint Patty's relationships with Marcie and Chuck "Relationships with other characters." Should it be separated into two sections? Dave 20:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• If I were writing it, I would put the lezzy portion in a section called "Revisionist interpretations". "Interpretations" is probably more than sufficient, since everything above it is actually about Schulz's portrayal of PP and Marcie, and that final section is someone else's portrayal. Wahkeenah 20:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd say revisionist is probably a bit of a weasel word (I think that's the term, not sure). "Contemporary interpretations"? Dave 20:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Contemporary interpretations is a more politically correct weasel term than revisionist, so go for it. Wahkeenah 20:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Lesbian or not--not a legitimate debate

I don't think people should add "lesbian" to Peppermint Patty's or Marcie's articles. It's not an issue. The characters are asexual, if not not worried about sex altogether. Janet6 22:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

However, it's an issue that's already been discussed in much more encyclopedic terms than the ones you're putting forth. If you can find a way to academically refute the legitimacy of the debate, go ahead. Let's hear it. Dave 22:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Even if Peppermint Patty and Marcie have never been portrayed as having feelings for each other in the Peanut's comic strip there have been references in popular culture suggesting that Peppermint Patty and Marcie have been lesbians, so it's worth mentioning. theRealdeal

By the way, who first started this controversy over Peppermint Patty & Marcie's sexuality? And when did it get started?

Peppermint Patty's last name - Reichardt

I am new to contibuting to Wikipedia, having registered just this evening. There are two issues I want to mention in regards to the Peppermint Patty entry.

1) Regarding Peppermint Patty's last name, Reichardt, a line in the Wikipedia article reads: "Besides guard duties, Peppermint Patty also retains Snoopy's services as an attorney, once even enlisting his help to openly defy the school's dress code (the only strip in which the character's full formal name, Patricia Reichardt, has ever been mentioned)." While the strip in question was published on 15 January 1972, her last name did appear at least one more time, in the 05 February 1993 strip, in which she reads to Marcie an ad she has placed in the paper:

  First panel: See Marcie?  My ad is in the paper.. 
  Second panel: "Help wanted.. attractive young lad can't remember history dates."  
  Third panel: "Doesn't understand fractions.. Call Patricia Reichardt at number below.."
  Fourth panel: What do you think, Marcie?  You are extremely weird, sir.

2) My last name is also Reichardt. When I read the strip in which "Patricia Reichardt" first appeared, 15 January 1972, I was astonished to see my last name in a Peanuts comic strip. I wrote Charles Schulz a letter asking him how he chose that name, never thinking he would respond. He did. He wrote me a short letter, dated 26 January 1972, in which he explained that his secretary always loved Peppermint Patty above all other Peanuts characters, and that she and Peppermint Patty had a lot in common. So when it came to giving her a last name, Schulz gave her the last name of her secretary at the time, Susan Reichardt.

I still have the original letter and the envelope in which it was mailed.

You're pretty lucky he ever responded to you.

Actually, Schulz made every effort to respond to every letter that was ever written to him (however much in brief). He viewed it as a matter of uncompromising courtesy. tuttlemsm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.161.243 (talk) 05:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

My question: what is the proper way to edit these two bits of information into the article? Also, because the information must be verifiable, what do I do about my letter? Should I scan it and upload it as proof?

Please advise, thank you.

--Podbay 03:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Today I made the edit regarding Item 1, above. I am still deciding how to edit into the article the information I have on hand, i.e., the letter from Charles Schulz explaining how he gave Peppermint Patty her last name, Reichardt. ----Podbay 02:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

As the above information confirms, the recent edit changing her last name was in error (and calling "He's a Bully" her last appearance is a bit of a crystal ball; if animated appearances are included, well, they're continuing to do more animation and will likely use her again.) I am avoiding directly editing Peanuts articles due to some recent direct professional involvement with Peanuts, but I hope someone else will take care of this correction. --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:06, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Trivia removed from article: Justice Roberts

I have removed the following text, with my formatting edit, from the article as trivia.

“ It has been reported, originally in The Washington Times, that Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts portrayed Peppermint Patty in his all-male high school's production of You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown. However, Peppermint Patty does not appear in the original version of the show; there is a part for "Patty", but she is an earlier Peanuts character. ”

• • Directors of YAGMCB often exercise their artistic prerogative to turn the Patty character into Peppermint Patty and instruct the actor accordingly. It's not correct, but it is understandable: Peppermint Patty is a much richer character than the original patty. tuttlemsm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.161.243 (talk) 07:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

WP is not a compendium of trivia, even when that trivia is reported in mass media. --SidP (talk) 00:37, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Lesbian icon?

Whether or not the character is actually lesbian, the fact they she's become something of an icon is worth noting --especially after its parodied in such mainstream venues as Family Guy (and that was years ago), The Boondocks comic strip, and others. Seriously now. --76.93.253.93 (talk) 23:09, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

That someone makes fun of tomboys as lesbians is not the same as making them lesbian icons; I don't know of any lesbians holding up P.Patty as an icon. Not every reference that Family Guy makes is noteworthy. If you can find a viable third party discussion of how Peppermint Patty is treated when parodied, that might survive notability, but a collection of "ha ha, she's a dyke references" on its own just becomes a needless list.--Nat Gertler (talk) 23:48, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Parodies by the Family Guy don't really cut it. But how do any of the deniers account for Marcie's constantly calling her "sir"? Dogru144 (talk) 01:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC) Dogru144 (talk) 01:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Patty Swanson

Michaelis does not say that Patty Swanson inspired Peppermint Patty, merely that her temperment is more like P.Patty than like flavorless Patty, the character whose name she inspired (footnoted on page 223). As such, I've excised the bit that claimed she was an inspiration. --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:28, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

The origin of Peppermint Patty

I was the physician for Patricia, the niece of Schultz. She was under the impression that she was the inspiration for Peppermint Patty. Someone should look into this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.95.106 (talk) 22:44, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Last appearance

Someone just updated "Last appearance" to be He's a Bully, Charlie Brown. I think we should stick with the source material - the strip - on this, but even if we don't, it is unlikely that He's a Bully is her final appearance. They have, after all, continued to do Peanuts animation since then - the motion comics, Happiness is a Warm Blanket, Charlie Brown -- and while PP may not be in those, she's likely to be in a future project. I will not edit it myself due to my Peanuts COI, but I thought I'd note that. -Nat Gertler (talk) 19:11, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

And now a date of "197?" has been added as her final appearance in the strip, when actually her final non-reprint appearance was 2? years later, on January 2, 2000. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

And now, another date has been added... one months after the last new Peanuts strip of any sort. Really, it's January 2, 2000, folks. --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:39, 17 April 2011 (UTC)