Talk:Ponosakan language

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 10:45, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that despite being the majority language in the Indonesian town of Belang before World War II, the Ponosakan language had only four fluent speakers left in 2014? Source: "Prior to World War II, Ponosakan was the majority language not only in the central part of Belang town..." (Lobel 2015, p. 429); "... as of November 2014 had only four fully fluent speakers" (Lobel 2015, p. 396).
  • ALT1:... that pronouns in the Ponosakan language have a count form which are always followed by a number? Source: "The count bases cannot occur independently, and are instead obligatorily followed by a number, either -ruwa ~ -duwa ‘two’ (which does not occur as an independent number word in Ponosakan), or any of the Ponosakan numbers tolu ‘three’ and above. There is no maximum number that can be represented by a count pronoun, as long as the speaker is willing to mention a number after the count base (for example, siyatolu ‘the three of them’, siya’opat ‘the four of them’, siya mopúlù ‘the ten of them’)" (Lobel 2015, p. 415).

• Reviewed: exempt (first DYK nomination)

5x expanded by Masjawad99 (talk). Self-nominated at 08:49, 16 July 2019 (UTC).

• I'm beginning my review. Umimmak (talk) 23:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
• Okay, it's long enough (3922 characters of prose), new enough (Assuming article is at 5x now, expansion began 13 edits ago on July 16, 2019). Article is neutral, every paragraph has at least one in-line citation.
• Both hooks are short enough, properly formatted. I would say perhaps Belang needs more context (e.g., the Indonesian town of Belang and that WWII probably doesn't need to be Wikilinked. Also your source and the article say four fluent speakers; your hook should probably use similar wording.

• @Umimmak: I cannot think of a better replacement for "had only four fluent speakers", but it sounds too close to the original sentence. What do you think? Masjawad99^💬 01:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

• I think this wording is sufficiently different and it’s more important to be precise in one’s wording. Umimmak (talk) 02:16, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

• I feel the wording of the second hook can be improved somewhat. Do you think something like ...has "count pronouns", which are always followed by a number or ...has a set of pronouns which need to be followed by a number is clearer? It seems your sources call them count forms more often so perhaps ... that pronouns in the Ponosakan language have a count form which are always followed by a number? I personally think this last one is the clearest. Let me know your thoughts on this.

• Done. Masjawad99^💬 01:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

• The sentence with the information used in the hook needs an in-line citation, even if you end up having to repeat the citation a few sentences later. Just add a couple more explicit references to Lobel 2015:415–416 in your discussion on count forms.

• Done. Masjawad99^💬 01:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

• Earwig didn't notice any copyright violations and neither did any of my spot checks, though I'm having to AGF for some of them.
• The article could use a bit more copyediting; I'm noticing some agreement errors Negation in Ponosakan are found, wrong tense But even back in 1920s, its number of speakers is already in decline., when WW II started, already half of Belang residents were newcomers who do not speak Ponosakan etc. I'll fix a couple ones which jump out to me but take another look.

• Done. Masjawad99^💬 01:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

• And strictly speaking there are a few places where your article doesn't quite say what your source say. Compare Compared to most of the languages in its subgroup, Ponosakan is phonologically and structurally conservative (Lobel) and Among the Gorontalo–Mongondow languages, Ponosakan is the most conservative, both in terms of phonology and structure. (Article); note the source doesn't say it's the most conservative in its subgroup. Just be careful with things like that.

• Oops, you're right. How about now? I have also altered the last sentence in the #Pronouns section. Masjawad99^💬 01:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

• You might also want to cite Lobel (2016) "Notes from the Field: Ponosakan: The Sounds of a Silently Dying Language of Indonesia, with Supporting Audio".

• Thanks! I will make use of it to further expand the article later. Masjawad99^💬 01:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

• @Masjawad99: Overall a good start, let me know your your thought re hook wording. I see Narutolovehinata5 has already amended one of your hooks to specify where Belang is, though I think something like in the town of Belang, Indonesia or in the Indonesian town of Belang in Indonesia reads less awkwardly than the repeated in in in the town of Belang in Indonesia. Umimmak (talk) 00:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Masjawad99: okay I’m satisfied. Both hooks and the article are approved. Umimmak (talk) 02:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I modified ALT0 slightly to mention that the town is Indonesia. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 23:38, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Clusivity

From the article: "As with other Philippine languages, pronouns in Ponosakan are distinguished by case (nominative, genitive, and oblique); number (singular and plural); and, for the first person singular pronouns, clusivity (inclusive and exclusive)."

According to the article on clusivity, it's a feature of first person plural pronouns, not first person singular ones. I don't see how first person singular pronouns could even exhibit clusivity; it doesn't make sense to me. Can someone who knows this language either correct this or explain how the clusivity works for the first person singular in Ponosakan?

--Tkynerd (talk) 08:25, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Fixed, according to source. –Austronesier (talk) 08:36, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! :-) -Tkynerd (talk) 12:10, 16 August 2019 (UTC)