Talk:Portsmouth/GA2

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GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs) 20:38, 6 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Will review tomorrow. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:38, 6 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I just realised that by a hell of a coincidence it's been exactly six years since I nominated this for GA! JAGUAR  17:50, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed a cooincidence!♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:32, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lede[edit]

  • Maybe find a way to merge "Located mainly on Portsea Island, it is the United Kingdom's only island city. With a population of 205,400, it is the only city in the British Isles with a greater population density than London." to avoid having to say only city again.
  • Rephrased to "Located mainly on Portsea Island with a population of 205,400, it is the United Kingdom's only island city, and is also the only city in the British Isles with a greater population density than London". I couldn't find a way to get rid of "only city" as I don't know any other way of describing that it is the only city with a great population density than London. JAGUAR  17:32, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The city is situated 64 miles (103 km) south-west of London and 19 miles (31 km) south-east of Southampton. The" -rep of city again
  • "The city of Portsmouth and Portsmouth Football Club are both nicknamed "Pompey". The naval base at HMNB Portsmouth is the largest dockyard for the Royal Navy and is home to two-thirds of the entire surface fleet." I don't think these belong in the first paragraph. The latter though, perhaps could be changed to say something like "One of the most important ports in Britain, it is the largest dockyard for the Royal Navy, home to two-thirds of the entire surface fleet".
  • Thanks, I've used your suggestion and will move the paragraphs around. JAGUAR  17:32, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Portsmouth has the world's oldest dry dock and is home to some famous ships, including HMS Warrior, the Tudor carrack Mary Rose and Lord Nelson's flagship, HMS Victory (the world's oldest naval ship still in commission)." -again I wouldn't mention these here as it affects flow. You start to want to read about it's history and sudden'y you're tlaking about present ships. I'd move mention to further down.
  • Good idea, I thought the same thing and wished I done that earlier. JAGUAR  17:32, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By the 19th century, Portsmouth was the most fortified city in the world, and assisted in the expansion of the British Empire." -strange to have these in the same sentence and what being a fortified city has to do with expansion.
  • I thought that the beginning of the sentence set the tone as both events happened in the 19th century, but I see what you mean. I rephrased this to "By the early 19th century, Portsmouth became the fortified city in the world, and also assisted in the expansion of the British Empire throughout Pax Britannica". I like my history, so please tell me if you want it rephrasing! JAGUAR  17:43, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "More recently, Portsmouth housed the majority of the attacking forces in the Falklands War, and Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia left the city to oversee the transfer of Hong Kong." -nearly 35 years isn't recent! I'd mention years instead.
  • Good point. I've added in the years and rephrased it slightly. JAGUAR  17:43, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "s well as the naval base, Portsmouth International Port is a commercial cruise ship and ferry port which serves international destinations for freight and passenger traffic. Portsmouth is among the few British cities with two cathedrals: the Anglican cathedral of St Thomas and the Roman Catholic Cathedral of St John the Evangelist" -again the flow is affected by changing the subject in paragraph. I don't think you can really go from discussing a commercial port to discussing cathedrals like that. I would discuss landmarks in earlier paragraph and then talk about the port and ships, and then you can move the earlier ships discussion in with it.
  • Done both, I moved the stuff about the cathedrals after the famous ships, were are more important. JAGUAR  17:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Portsmouth forms part of the South Hampshire built-up area, which also covers Southampton and the towns of Havant, Waterlooville, Eastleigh, Fareham and Gosport. With about 860,000 residents, it is the 6th largest urban area in England and the largest in South East England, forming the centre of one of the United Kingdom's most populous metropolitan areas with a population in excess of one million" -see, this to me belongs in the first paragraph not the last.
  • Agreed, moved. JAGUAR  17:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

History[edit]

  • "The Chronicle states that:" -unsourced
  • "It was, however, " this can be avoided
  • " After Isaac had held Richard's fiancée and sister captive, the king responded by conquering Cyprus during the Third Crusade. " -when was this?
  • 1191. Added. JAGUAR  18:15, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His awarding of the arms could possibly reflect a significant involvement of Portsmouth soldiers, sailors or vessels in that operation" -in who's opinion?
  • I've rephrased the sentence so it appears more neutral. JAGUAR  18:15, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By the 14th century commercial interests had grown considerably: common imports included wool, grain, wheat, woad, wax and iron; however the port's largest trade was in wine from Bayonne and Bordeaux." -again "however" can be avoided. You could reword as ""By the 14th century commercial interests had grown considerably. Common imports included wool, grain, wheat, woad, wax and iron, though the port's largest trade was in wine from Bayonne and Bordeaux." -"
  • Done, thanks. JAGUAR  18:15, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with about 300 deaths " -resulting in about?

I'll read through this gradually and do it in chunks. I'll resume once these have been addressed.

Thanks for the review so far, Dr. Blofeld! I've done everything so far. I've restructured the lead and added a little more in order to balance it out. I've also archived a dead ref and added another source in for the chronicle. I removed the part about historians disagreeing on Portsmouth's name origin, since it didn't seem plausible to source. JAGUAR  18:17, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and possibly lover of James I", not sure the relevance
  • "Most of Portsmouth's residents, including the mayor, supported the parliamentarians during the English Civil War. However, the military governor of the town, Colonel Goring, who commanded the soldiers in Portsmouth, supported the royalists.[27] During the war, the town became a major base for the parliamentarian navy, and so the town was blockaded from the sea. Parliamentarian troops were sent to besiege Portsmouth by land; the guns of Southsea Castle were fired at the town of Portsmouth by parliamentarian troops. " -could be worded better. The first part I'd merge as "Most of Portsmouth's residents, including the mayor, supported the parliamentarians during the English Civil War, though the military governor of the town, Colonel Goring, who commanded the soldiers in Portsmouth, supported the royalists."
  • Rephrased, and also went with your suggestion! JAGUAR  17:03, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is very poorly worded and constructed. "During the war, the town became a major base for the parliamentarian navy, and so the town was blockaded from the sea." Parliament had the navy, so why would they blockade their own base? Earl of Warwick blockaded Portsmouth with 5 ships and captured the only Royalist ship. "On 5 September 1642, the remaining royalists in the garrison at the Square Tower were forced to surrender after Goring threatened to blow it up with gunpowder." Goring was the Royalist commander, so how were the Royalists forced to surrender because he threatened to blow up the powder supplies? Rather, the Royalists surrendered, and used the threat to blow up the powder to secure favorable terms of surrender. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.199.224.239 (talk) 17:46, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Under the Commonwealth of England, Robert Blake, the father of the Royal Navy, used Portsmouth as his main base during both the First Anglo-Dutch War and the Anglo Spanish War. " -dates?
  • ". Between 1650 and 1660, twelve ships were built in the town and the population had increased to around 3000. " -strange to mention ships count and population in the same sentence. I wouldn't mention population as you don't state what it was previously.
  • Removed population. It was the first time the source mentioned a population, I think. JAGUAR  17:03, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Marc Isambard Brunel, the father of famed engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunel, established in 1802 the world's first mass production line at the Portsmouth Block Mills, producing pulley blocks for rigging on the Royal Navy's ships.[42] T" -a mouthful. Try " Marc Isambard Brunel, the father of famed engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunel, established the world's first mass production line at the Portsmouth Block Mills in 1802. It produced pulley blocks for rigging on the Royal Navy's ships."
  • Thanks, I went with that. JAGUAR  17:12, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Charles Dickens bit looks out of place and odd, best to remove that and talk about it in the notable people section at the bottom.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:27, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moved to the people section. JAGUAR  17:12, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1818 John Pounds began teaching the working class children of Portsmouth in what became the country's first ragged school.[47] The schools and the resulting movement aimed to provide education to all children regardless of their ability to pay.[48] In 1811 Portsmouth obtained its first piped water supply; however it was only available to the upper and middle classes. By 1819, five hundred workers who resided in the town emigrated to the United States." again a strange concoction which affects flow.
  • I moved the bit about the ragged schools to the previous paragraph and split it where it begun with the town gaining the water supply. I hope that improves flow. I also expanded a bit about the water supply, seeing that I've just found a source dedicated to it! JAGUAR  17:12, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1869, roughly 1000 dockyard workers emigrated to Canada. A horse tramway service opened from Old Portsmouth to North End a few years later. A working class suburb was constructed in the 1870s; around 1820 houses were being built along large patches of land owned by a Mr Somers. The suburb was eventually named Somerstown, in honour of the landowner." -the first part of this too seems like random factoids, is it all verifiable in the source given?
  • I've removed the bit about the workers emigrating to Canada and reshuffled that paragraph slightly, to improve flow. The source comes from Portsmouth City Council, so it should be good. JAGUAR  11:06, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"As a vital port for the Royal Navy, Portsmouth played large roles in both world wars. In 1916, the town experienced its first aerial bombardment when a Zeppelin airship bombed it.[" -I would expect to read about why it played a large role but you don't really explain why. I would expect to read about the naval history before a bombing if you start it like that. I would reword it.

  • When I wrote that I was subconsciously thinking of the countless ships that embarked from the city during both world wars, with it being Britain's most important port and all. Of course I can't find it plausible to mention every single ship that left the city etc, so I removed the "large" modifier. It should read fine as "played roles in both world wars"? If I had books I'd love to add a whole lot more on this. JAGUAR  11:09, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Guildhall" link?
  • The source doesn't say that 10% of the city was destroyed, it says "nearly 10% of the houses ". I would hazard a guess that a much greater area of the city was destroyed, as the Germans would have target the industrial buildings and port before housing. Misleading, I'd remove mention of this.
  • I see what you mean. Removed. JAGUAR  11:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bit worrying the reliance on http://www.localhistories.org/ What makes Tim Lambert an authority and reliable source? I would generally prefer the use of books instead of relying on such a site.
  • Me too, if I had all of the books then I would probably have enough ammo to get this to FA, but sadly I have to make do with online sources. Tim Lambert has a BA honours in history from a university and created a World History Encyeclopedia. His Linkedin profile gives him off as a historian, so thankfully he's not just a blogger! JAGUAR  17:44, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In Leigh Park, the first housing estates were ready for use in 1949, however building in the area continued until 1974." -avoid however again, try "In Leigh Park, the first housing estates were completed in 1949, though building work in the area continued until 1974."
  • "Traditional industries such as brewing and corset making vanished during this time, although electrical engineering became a major employer." -why "although", electrical engineering is a modern industry not a old one? I would remove that word with simply "and"
  • "Tourism became a major industry for Portsmouth in recent years; in 1982 the Tudor carrick Mary Rose was raised from the seabed in 1982 and has since become a museum open to the public.[62] The D-Day museum opened in 1984 and the HMS Warrior, Britain's first ironclad warship, was moved to the city in 1987.[27][63][64]" -conflict in tense in "became" and "in recent years". This material belongs more in the economy section anyway, I'd move it there.
  • Really? I thought that the inclusion of those famous ships were part of Portsmouth's history, as it makes the city what it is today. I fixed the tense issue for now. Do you still want me to remove it? I don't mind! JAGUAR  11:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd move it to the economy section.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:32, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done. JAGUAR  16:00, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In January 1997, Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia embarked from Portsmouth on her final voyage to oversee the transfer of sovereignty over Hong Kong. She was later decommissioned on 11 December that year at Portsmouth Naval Base in the presence of the Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh and twelve senior members of the Royal Family.[67]" -surely you can find a better source than a tabloid for this..
  • I was thinking the same myself, but the Daily Mirror article was the only source that mentioned HMY Britannia leaving Portsmouth itself, which is what I needed. I've moved the Daily Mirror citation to the point when it mentioned leaving Portsmouth for Hong Kong, and added better sources for its decommissioning. JAGUAR  11:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Geography[edit]

  • "Most of Portsmouth is situated on Portsea Island, being the United Kingdom's only island city." -"being the" or "which is"
  • Not seeing how ref 83 verifies north of the creek and areas.
  • Ref 83 lists all of the areas/districts in Portsmouth, but it doesn't state what is north of the creek. It does, however, say what districts are in the north (Portsmouth North). I've removed the "north of the creek" and rephrased it to make it clearer. JAGUAR  16:00, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • No mention of Cascades in ref 84.
  • Added a new source. JAGUAR  17:00, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 85, can't see where it verifies "The city's central station, Portsmouth and Southsea railway station.
  • I've changed this to "main station", seeing as the article uses it too. JAGUAR  17:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 86, can't see where it verifies "south of".
  • A source describes the station being a two minutes walk from the Guildhall, but since it doesn't say "south of" I just rephrased it to "near" and used the source. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if you could use Google Maps or something as a reference to these little things? JAGUAR  17:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 87, where does it say named after Queen Victoria?
  • Unbelievable. I couldn't find anything on it being named after her so I was forced to remove it. JAGUAR  17:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 89, where does it say Fratton is in the centre of the island?
  • Can't find anything on that, so I moved the sentence to the previous paragraph and rephrased it to "other districts include..." JAGUAR  17:23, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 92, where does it say "the majority of its surface area is only about 3 metres (9.8 ft) above sea level."?
  • Wow, for once in my life I've found an excellent source from the city council itself! The sea level figures are on page 4. Added this in. JAGUAR  17:34, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jaguar: It's a relief map though isn't it? And it shows that most is less than 3 metres.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:31, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, since it's the only decent source I can find for geology I've rephrased it to say that the average above sea level on the island itself is less than 3 metres. JAGUAR  11:17, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 93, Can't see where it says highest natural elevation on whole island
  • Ref 94 -dead
  • Ref 95, Where does this source verify ""Portsmouth has a temperate oceanic climate (Köppen climate classification Cfb), similar to much of southern Britain. During winter frosts are light and short-lived and snow quite rare, with temperatures rarely dropping below freezing, as the city is surrounded by water and densely populated, and Portsdown Hill protects the city from cold northerly winds." and " temperatures rarely reach much more than that because of the cooling influence of the sea. "
  • It's mentioned in the brilliant pdf file I found. I've re-written the first half of the paragraph and deleted the latter. JAGUAR  22:28, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 96 - Where does ref 96 verify "As it is located on the south coast, Portsmouth receives more sunshine per annum than most of the UK and much of western Europe. "
  • I did find a good BBC bitesize source saying that the south coast of England have greater sunshine hours than anywhere else. I've added that in and rephrased it, but if you want it removed then let me know. JAGUAR  17:23, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics[edit]

  • Where is London mentioned in refs 2 and 3 on being denser? In fact it says "It narrowly beats London, which has an average of 4,900 people per sq km. "
  • I've added two new sources. Only Islington, a district, is denser than Portsmouth. JAGUAR  22:46, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where does ref 100 verify the figure and "The population of the city declined in the late 20th century, as people moved out of the city into the surrounding South Hampshire commuter region.[1"
  • Where does ref 2 state 1951 census figure was 233,545?
  • Ref 102 says 91.86% not 90.9
  • Ref 103 "Portsmouth's long association with the Royal Navy meant that it represents one of the most diverse cities in terms of the peoples of the British Isles, with many demobilised sailors staying in the city, in particular, Scots, English from the North East, and Northern Irish" -where is the mention of demobilised sailors and Scots. Irish etc?#
  • Removed the bits about sailors and Scots etc. JAGUAR  22:46, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where does ref 104 and 105 verify "Similarly, some of the largest and most established non-white communities have their roots with the Royal Navy, most notably the large Chinese community, principally from British Hong Kong". ONe is an association website and the other seems to just report fundraising history.
  • I've removed the first reference and re-added the census ethnicity from Hampshire County Council, as the table states that Portsmouth has the highest Chinese proportion in the county. JAGUAR  22:46, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 107, what makes "Love My Town" a RS?
  • I don't know, but it lists all of the cathedrals in the UK and other statistics. It claims that it's all about Civic Pride. Anyway, I've added a source from English Cathedrals. JAGUAR  22:46, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Phew this is pretty exhausting stuff, took an hour to just look at those section, this is going to be slow and gruelling I think ;-)♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:19, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed so far Dr. Blofeld! Yeah, very exhausting for me too! Thanks for the review so far. JAGUAR  22:46, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing ;-)

Government[edit]

  • Ref 114 is dead
  • That's weird, it was working a couple of weeks ago. Archived. JAGUAR  11:26, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 115: Source says "In 1920 the boundaries of Portsmouth were extended to include the village of Cosham north of Portsea Island and in 1932 to include Drayton and Farlington to the north east. ", no mention of 1904 or mainland
  • Re-written, I think 1904 was my mistake when I wrote this. Drayton and Farlington are both on the mainland. To appease this, I found a source which states that they're both on the mainland. JAGUAR  13:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 116, "for purposes such as lieutenancy and shrievalty" -not in source
  • Removed. I think it's obvious to the reader that Portsmouth is in Hampshire and I wouldn't have liked to keep this sentence anyway. The source only mentioned who the "Vice Lord-Lieutenants" of Hampshire were, including Portsmouth and Southampton. JAGUAR  19:28, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Constituencies in industrial cities tend to vote labour," -Capital needed
  • "Constituencies in industrial cities tend to vote labour, however the city's strong connection to the military has often seen the Conservative party win the most votes.[118][119][120] Former Labour Prime Minister James Callaghan was born and grew up in Portsmouth.[121][122]" -reads as OR as there is no mention of tendency of cities to vote Labour, and James Callaghan Labour looks irrelevant given that it's Conservative. I'd remove all of this.
  • Removed all. JAGUAR  11:34, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 124,125 and 126 seem to be the same and I'm not seeing a mention of 19 or 14 wards and 3 councillors
  • I put in the wrong url! This link (almost the same as before) shows you three councillors per ward and 14 wards. JAGUAR  19:36, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • .Where does ref 127 verify "Councillors have a four-year term, with one seat being contested in each ward in three years out of four. "?
  • I found this source instead, which states that all councillors in England serve a four year term. I used that. JAGUAR  19:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 128, "The Lord Mayor of Portsmouth is a separate ceremonial position, elected and usually held for a one-year period of office." -not in source
  • Removed "a separate ceremonial position, elected". JAGUAR  19:48, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 129 - "The council is based in the Civic Offices, which houses all council rooms as well as tax offices, resident services and municipal functions" -The source is a directory of all the departments, yes, but it makes no mention that it houses all council rooms and of "offices", or indeed that the council is based there.
  • I rephrased this to "which houses departments such as tax support, housing benefit, resident services and municipal functions". If you click on the links it shows that all departments are in the Civic Offices, and I should have hopefully cleared up the council offices issue by removing it. I found a mention of them being in the Civic Offices from a directory called Cylex, but I didn't go ahead with it as I'm not sure if it's reliable. JAGUAR  19:48, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 130 -no mention of "Neo-classical"
  • I found a source. JAGUAR  19:48, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Economy[edit]

  • Ref 132 is dead
  • Ref 133 says "The work will be shared among a number of companies, including BAE Systems' Govan and Scotstoun yards in Glasgow, which employ 3,000 people. " -made in Glasgow, not Portsmouth, though it mentions Portsmouth as a base
  • The previous ref mentions blocks and islands being built in Portsmouth. Ref 133 still says "including those at yards on the Clyde, Rosyth, Portsmouth and Barrow". JAGUAR  20:39, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would use just the Telegraph source and mention the ships.
  • Ref 134, shouldn't the publisher be The Daily Telegraph or The Telegraph, rarely Telegraph.
  • "There is also a major ferry port which deals with both passengers and cargo. The city is also host to the European headquarters of IBM and the UK headquarters of Zurich Financial Services.[28]" . you can use much stronger sources to verify this..
  • Added one for the ferry port and IBM. JAGUAR  20:39, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 135- "In the last decade the number of stores in Portsmouth have increased due to both the buoyancy of the local economy and improved transport links. In the city centre, shopping is centred on Commercial Road and the 1980s Cascades Shopping Centre, with over 100 high street shops between them" -largely nothing of this verified in the source.
  • I was forced to remove all of this. Stuff like this is going to be too difficult to find in a RS, so it's better off removed. I realised that I cut back too much on the economy section, so I may have to remove the image too. JAGUAR  08:56, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 136/137- "Recent redevelopment has created new shopping areas, including the upmarket Gunwharf Quays, containing fashion stores, restaurants, and a cinema; and the Historic Dockyard, which aims at the tourist sector and holds regular French markets, and an annual Christmas market" -none of this is mentioned in the sources.
  • I sourced the mention about creating new shopping areas to the history of Gunwharf Quays. I sourced the Christmas market to the correct ref and removed the French market. JAGUAR  09:11, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 137 - "Large shopping areas include Ocean Retail Park, on the north-eastern side of Portsea Island, comprising shops requiring large floor space for selling consumer goods." -not in source
  • Fixed and changed. JAGUAR  09:11, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 138, this Bing source doesn't exactly verify "There are also many smaller shopping areas throughout the city." does it?
  • Aren't ref 139 and 140 the same? "They land fresh fish and shellfish daily – the majority of which is sold at the quayside fish market to local restaurants.[" -no mention of selling to restaurants.
  • Oops. Fixed. JAGUAR  20:49, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A chart of trend in regional gross value added in Portsmouth, at current basic prices, has been published by the Office for National Statistics here (pp. 240–253, figures are in millions of pounds)." -what is "current"? link is dead anyway, I'd remove all of this and the table.
  • Good! The only reason why I kept it was because I wasn't sure if anybody thought it would be worth keeping. JAGUAR  19:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Culture[edit]

  • "Portsmouth has three theatres, two of which were designed by the Victorian architect and entrepreneur Frank Matcham:[141] the New Theatre Royal in Guildhall Walk, near to the city centre, which specialises in classical, modern and professional drama,[142] and the newly restored Kings Theatre in Southsea, which features amateur musicals as well an increasing number of national tours.[1" -it would be good to mention the theatres and the ones which were designed by Matcham as this isn't clear. Ref 141 doesn't say Portsmouth has three theatres, it's a list of Matcham's works, so this all needs rewording. I can only see one theatre on that list too, what did I miss?
  • Re-structured. I got rid of the dodgy "three" (Portsmouth has more theatres, but only three are considered major) and made Matcham's theatres clearer. There are two theatres on that list, New Prince’s Theatre and Kings Theatre. I couldn't find much info on Prince's Theatre, so I only mentioned it in Matcham's sentence. JAGUAR  15:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 142 "the New Theatre Royal in Guildhall Walk, near to the city centre, which specialises in classical, modern and professional drama," -not in source.
  • Removed "classical" and "modern". JAGUAR  15:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 143 - "and the newly restored Kings Theatre in Southsea, which features amateur musicals as well an increasing number of national tours.[143] " -not in source, you reference that to the New Theatre rather than Kings Theatre!
  • Oof. My bad! Well spotted. Fixed and reworded. JAGUAR  15:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref144-45 - Ref 144 says "The building has a standing capacity of 2,500", not 2,000, the second sources just says a crowd of 2000.. Where does it say largest theatre?
  • Corrected. I found a source which states that it's becoming "one of the largest venues in the south", so I rephrased it to follow that. JAGUAR  15:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There are four main nightspots in the city: Southsea, Guildhall Walk, Albert Road and Gunwharf Quays" -not verified in refs 146 and 7 which just mentions the club, nothing on four major nightspors and mention of those.
  • Removed sentence. JAGUAR  15:55, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Outdoor performances by local acts also take place regularly at Southsea Bandstand." - in the summer maybe, not year round is it?
  • Ref 153 - It's Wigmore not Wingmore and "For every three years between 1979 and 1988, Portsmouth served as the host city for a major international string quartet competition" is not verified by source, it just says it held it between 1979 and 1988, no mention of three year intervals.
  • Ref 158, Does the source say it was the "opening"?
  • " John Cranko's 1951 ballet Pineapple Poll is set at the quayside in Portsmouth, which features the operetta music of Sullivan and The Bumboat Woman's Story by Gilbert." -Ref 160 says set in Portsmouth, no mention of the quayside.
  • Fix link to Aubrey–Maturin series and mention "nautical historical novels" as it's not clear what they are. Shouldn't this be in the literature section though?
It was a redirect before.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:40, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The city played a major part in the 50th D-Day anniversary" -mention in 1994.

OK, we're up to Literature.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:28, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All done so far, Dr. Blofeld. I'm knackered! I didn't understand the bit about using the Telegraph source to mention the ships, so that was the only thing I left out for now, JAGUAR  15:55, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I meant you can use The Telegraph to source it all I think, and remove the two sources before which had problems Jaguar♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:59, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Which two had problems? I couldn't find anything wrong with the BBC or MoD ones. I've added a little more from the Telegraph source. I'm ready to go when you are. JAGUAR  21:18, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Literature
  • I've removed it as I doubt it's reliable enough. JAGUAR  12:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you find a better source than "Sparknotes"?
  • "High fantasy author Neil Gaiman also sets his graphic novel The Tragical Comedy or Comical Tragedy of Mr. Punch around Southsea, Gaiman having grown up in Portsmouth." -does ref 172 verify all of this?
  • I found this, which verifies it. JAGUAR  14:50, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Italicize The Independent in ref 174

Education[edit]

  • "The city's post-1992 university, the University of Portsmouth, has notable achievements in law, mathematics and biological sciences". Can't see that in ref 180, and you shouldn't really use a primary source to verify achievements in something anyway!
  • Good point, I've removed all of this and replaced it with the fact that it has 20,000 students. JAGUAR  15:02, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 181 isn't responding.
  • "which offers a mixture of academic and vocational courses in the city", where is that in ref 182?
  • It's a list of courses that the college offers. I've rephrased this. JAGUAR  11:39, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 183 - "Both Admiral Lord Nelson School and Miltoncross Academy were built in the 1990s to meet the demand of a growing school age population." -not in source
  • Choppy prose in this first paragraph, you can't really talk about university courses and Portsmouth's secondary schools being demolished in the same paragraph!
  • I've moved the bit about the secondary schools into another paragraph. JAGUAR  11:39, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By 2007, no school in Portsmouth was below the government's minimum standards; nevertheless many still counted among the worst performing schools in the country.[1" -contradictory and highly dubious
  • "Since becoming an academy, the schools has significantly improved; 21% of students achieved five GCSEs at grades A* – C including English and mathematics in 2009." -well it's not clear what the previous figures were so this is largely redundant. Doesn't the source say 68%?
  • I can't find the previous figures, but I think this is important to mention as it's showing the improved figures for when the school was taken over. I've rephrased this a bit. JAGUAR  11:39, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the schools has significantly improved" -have not has
  • Well spotted. JAGUAR  14:54, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There is also a cohort of independent schools within the city – the oldest, founded in 1732,[191] is the Portsmouth Grammar School which has been rated as one of the top private schools in the country." - no mention of the date in source
  • Rep of "top private "
  • Ref 196 isn't in source

Notable landmarks[edit]

  • "In 1982 the remains of Henry VIII's flagship, the Mary Rose, was raised from the seabed,HMS Warrior and has become a popular tourist attraction.[199] Britain's first iron-hulled warship, HMS Warrior, was restored and moved to Portsmouth in 1987." -Repetition, needs reediting and removing double link.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:10, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while Britain's first iron-hulled warship, HMS Warrior, was restored and moved to Portsmouth in 1987.[25][199][200] " -not sure why you need three sources for this.
  • Removed one. JAGUAR  11:33, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The National Museum of the Royal Navy is also in the historic dockyard, and is sponsored by an independent charity.[201] Every November the Portsmouth Historic Dockyard hosts the Victorian Festival of Christmas, which includes the largest Christmas market on the south coast of England.[202][203]" -the charity mention is vague, I would expect to told briefly about what exhibits it has/when/who established not that. Also you then talk about the Historic Dockyward, it's not clear if this festival is associated with the museum or not.
  • I've added the aims of the charity: "which aims to promote research into the history and archaeology of the Royal Dockyard". I can't find any information about the Victorian Christmas festival being associated with the dockyard, but all I know is that it just hosts the festival. Do you think I should move it to the Culture section? JAGUAR  11:53, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Claims like the largest Christmas market need third party sources or if you can't find one say "claims to be the largest"
  • I couldn't find this in any third party sources, so I replaced it with a mention of a green Father Christmas! JAGUAR  11:53, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Many of the city's former defences are now museums," -lacking structure here, I would expect to be told about museums in one paragraph and then moving on to the next set of landmarks.
  • I'm not sure if this was already copyedited as part of yours or J3mr's edits but I find that the first paragraph talks about the famous ships and naval base related stuff, whereas the second paragraph talks about museums themselves or former military establishments that have been converted into such. If you want, I could remove the introductory sentence. JAGUAR  20:28, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Tudor era Southsea Castle has a small museum, and much of the seafront defences up to the Round Tower are open to the public." -are the Southsea Castle and Round Tower related?
  • They are close in proximity. I can see the confusion, so I reworded the sentence to "much of the seafront defences leading up to the Round Tower are open", as it's referring to the defences from between Southsea Castle and the Round Tower, which aren't that far apart. JAGUAR  20:28, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 207, Where does it verify Eastney and 1983 Heritage Act? The source says 2019 not 2017 too.
  • Would be good to know more about some of the memorials, are some Grade II* listed etc, when they were added. sculptor etc. Just elaborate a little without bloating it.
  • Unfortunately I couldn't find a list of memorials or what their listed statuses were, but I added some extra content about the Portsmouth Naval Memorial (which I can't believe I missed out). JAGUAR  20:55, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Other tourist attractions include the birthplace of Charles Dickens,[211] the Blue Reef Aquarium which houses an "underwater safari" of aquatic life in Britain,[212] and Cumberland House Natural History Museum, which features a variety of exotic and extinct animals.[213][214]" -so we're back to museums again to cap it off ;-)
  • Blurgh. Moved to the second paragraph. JAGUAR  20:55, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "exotic and extinct animals" -can't see it in source where it says the museum is full of them
  • Reworded to "wildlife in the area", which the second ref backs up. JAGUAR  20:55, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overlink on Portsea, Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour?
  • " however it was later expanded as a seaside resort in the Victorian era.[75] The first houses were built for skilled workers and later homes for middle class workers were built in the area, however it remained small until 1835." -rep of later, however and built, needs major rewording/copyediting - avoid "however" as much as possible.
  • Done. I replaced "later, however and built" with others. JAGUAR  21:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • ". By the 1860s the suburb of Southsea had grown eastwards, with terraces and new suburbs being built for working-class people" -the source makes no mention of eastwards
  • Ref 219 doesn't appear to verify all of those events
  • Fixed, I've changed this to match events given in the source. JAGUAR  11:36, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "believed to be the oldest and largest-surviving in Hampshire, which have escaped Dutch elm disease because of their isolation." - watch paraphrasing
  • Rephrased. Also fixed a typo. JAGUAR  21:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Other plants include the semi-mature Canary Island Date Palms Phoenix canariensis, which are some of the largest in the UK and for the last few years have fruited and produced viable seed, the first time this species of palm has been recorded doing so in the UK." rep of "in the UK", Needs a copyedit.
  • I removed the latter half and cut/reworded the jargon. I also changed "UK" to Britain. JAGUAR  21:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • " for the past few years have fruited and produced viable seed, the first time this species of palm has been recorded doing so in the UK. " -again a direct copyvio
  • "The former HMS Vernon naval shore establishment was closed on 1 April 1996[221] and chosen for a major development by Portsmouth City Council into the area known as Gunwharf Quays." -into the area?
  • I thought that sounded fine, but I changed it into "which was then overhauled into Gunwharf Quays". JAGUAR  21:17, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gunwharf is a mixed residential and outlet retail destination with 90 outlet stores and 30 restaurants, pubs and cafés. It also plays host to a 14-screen Vue cinema, a 26-lane Bowlplex Bowling Alley, Aspex art gallery, Grovenor casino, a Holiday Inn Express and a Tiger Tiger nightclub." -not verified by Ref 222. Only 90 is mentioned.
  • I know I won't be able to find a good source for this, so I removed it all. JAGUAR  21:17, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Planning of the erection of the Spinnaker Tower began in 2000; construction started in 2001 and was completed in mid-2005 due to repeated delays and extra funding requests by Mowlem, the firm behind the construction." -poorly worded with rep of construction/erection, try something like "The Spinnaker Tower commenced construction in 2001, and was completed in the summer of 2005 after financial setbacks delayed the project".
  • Thanks, done. JAGUAR  21:17, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The BBC source says 36 million not 35.6
  • Fixed. The source must have rounded the number. JAGUAR  11:33, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The tower is 560 feet (170 m) tall and features several viewing platforms giving views across the Solent and Portsmouth Harbour." -features vs giving, they jar, try "The 560 feet (170m) tall tower provides views across the Solent and Portsmouth Harbour
  • Thanks, done. JAGUAR  11:33, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Watch overlink with Solent.
  • Ref 225 says " It offers amazing 350˚ panoramic views of Portsmouth, over three viewing decks with full floor to ceiling glazed walls.". No mention of views of Solent and Portsmouth Harbour.
  • I've got pictures from 2009 that will prove it ;-D. I'll try and find a source. JAGUAR  20:42, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Found something from their own website, which says it overlooks the harbour etc. JAGUAR  21:17, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Overall this landmarks section I think needs the biggest copyedit and reshuffling from all of the sections I've read so far.

All clarified Dr. Blofeld! Regarding the third point, I don't know if I should move it to the culture section. JAGUAR  21:19, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Religion[edit]

Will resume with this once the above are addressed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jaguar: Sorry for the delay, how are you getting on, ready for the next batch?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:23, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ready! I cut a few sentences last night which weren't supported by the sources, but I'm not sure if I got them all. Ready when you are. JAGUAR  11:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Righteo, continuing now..♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:33, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It became a cathedral in in 1932" - in in in
  • " Before 1791 it was illegal for Catholics to have chapels in towns with borough status." -watch paraphrasing
  • Rephrased. JAGUAR  13:11, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vatican policy in England was to found sees in locations other than those used for Anglican cathedrals. -would be best as a footnote

Sport[edit]

  • "Portsmouth F.C. who play their home games at Fratton Park have" -missing commas
  • " amid serious financial difficulties in April 2012" -can't find this in source
  • "In April 2013 Portsmouth FC were purchased by the Pompey Supporters Trust, becoming largest fan owned football club in English Football history" -try "In April 2013, Portsmouth FC was purchased by the Pompey Supporters Trust, becoming the largest fan-owned football club in English Football history"
  • Thanks, added. JAGUAR  13:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • " becoming largest fan owned football club in English Football history" -can't find in source
  • It's in the sub header of the given source. I've also added this BBC source which states "they're now the biggest fan owned club in the country". JAGUAR  13:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Other football teams in the city include Moneyfields F.C. who have been playing in the Wessex League Premier Division since 1998.[241] United Services Portsmouth F.C. (formerly known as Portsmouth Royal Navy) and Baffins Milton Rovers F.C. both play in the Wessex League Division One, with the former being among the founding members of the Wessex League in 1986,[242] and the latter being founded in 2011.[2" -needs a comma after F.C.. The last sentence is poorly constructed makes no sense that one could found the Wessex League in 1986 and the other in 2011. Need a rewrite and to be made clear what you mean
  • Reworded to "both compete in Wessex League Division One, with United Services being among the founding members of the league in 1986,[244] and Baffins Milton Rovers being founded in 2011" JAGUAR  16:44, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 244 doens't support the text, needs storng er sources than just a fixture list, now mention of United Services Portsmouth RFC either.
  • This one? It mentions a history (the only history for that matter) of the club (then named Royal Navy I think), but I removed the bit about being a founding member in 1986. JAGUAR  16:44, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "City of Portsmouth Hockey Club who are based" -try "The City of Portsmouth Hockey Club, who are based"
  • "and United Services Portsmouth Hockey Club who are based" -comma needed after Club
  • Ref 249 - where is Temeraire mentioned?
  • "Furthermore, Portsmouth is the home city of Britain's first female world champion swimmer Katy Sexton, who won gold in the 200 metres (660 ft) backstroke at the 2003 World Aquatics Championships in Barcelona.[250]" Doesn't really fit, belongs in the notable people section
  • I thought so. Removed JAGUAR  17:16, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Transport[edit]

  • Is everything definitely verifiable in ref 251?
  • I've checked and on page 8 it mentions a lot about bus services and hover buses but doesn't list the name of towns, so I removed that part. JAGUAR  17:55, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There is an ongoing debate on the development of a new public transport structure, with monorails and light rail both being considered. A light rail link to Gosport was authorised in 2002 with completion expected in 2005, but it is unlikely to go ahead following the refusal of funding by the Department for Transport in November 2005.[255] In April 2011, an article appeared in Portsmouth News suggesting a new scheme could be in the offering by running a light rapid transit system over the line to Southampton via Fareham, Bursledon, and Sholing, thus replacing the existing heavy rail services.[256][257] The monorail scheme is unlikely to proceed following the withdrawal of official support for the proposal by Portsmouth City Council, after the development's promoters failed to progress the scheme to agreed timetables" -this for me belongs either at the end of the transport or in future developments section as it doesn't exist yet, you could cover what exists first.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:58, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I moved it to the end of the transport section just for the sake of having two images in the section. JAGUAR  17:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There is also a South West Trains stopping service to Southampton Central and a service by Great Western Railway to Cardiff Central via Southampton, Salisbury, Bath and Bristol.[260] Southern also offer services " -rep of "also" and "services".
  • Rephrased JAGUAR  17:32, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "P&Q Ferries ceased their service to Bilbao o" -overlink of Bilbao
  • What makes Solentpedia a RS?
  • I got desperate, so removed! JAGUAR  17:55, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were built on the sit -why not shit ;-)?
  • The whole of Portsmouth is built on shit ;-D anyway fixed! JAGUAR  16:47, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Today, the nearest airport is Southampton Airport, situated in the Borough of Eastleigh, which lies 19.8 miles (31.9 km) away." -can't find in source
  • Overlink on National Express

Media[edit]

  • "The stations is broadcast" -"is?
  • I is stupid. JAGUAR  17:56, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where is mention of St Mary's hospital in Ref 295
  • Removed, couldn't find it elsewhere. JAGUAR  17:56, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notable residents[edit]

At quick glance way too bloated for the main article. I wouldn't want to even begin to start to read it. I would delete it myself or seriously condense it and move it to a List of people from Portsmouth article with decent paragraph summaries and then a big list.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:46, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ironically this was the easiest section to write and source, as the information was easy to get online. I think that people like Dickens, Sellers, HG Wells and a few others are very important, and all UK city GAs have notable people sections, so my best bet would probably be to condense it and create a new article. JAGUAR  18:00, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr. Blofeld: I've cut three quarters of the notable people section and have made a separate article in a list format. How's it looking? It was a shame that I had to cut most of people out (even if I never heard of them) but I've kept in most of the people who I think are essential and well known. JAGUAR  10:41, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from J3Mrs[edit]

The Prehistory section is muddled, I don't consider the Norman Conquest is relevant here and the Southwick Cartularies are 13th century.

  • This point has not been addressed
  • I've moved the mentions about the town's foundation and records during the Norman conquest, along with the Southwick Cartularies to the medieval section, seeing as it makes better sense to move them there. Portsmouth doesn't have much of a history before the Norman invasion, and at one point I was tempted to rename the prehistory section to something like "Prehistory to Norman conquest", in order to cover more ground. I would have even just gone with a "etymology" section if it wasn't for the mention of Roman forts. JAGUAR  19:13, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A good source for the towns's name can be found here. Addressed

The "translation" of the Anglo Saxon would be better as a note.

Generally from a quick look "Portsmouth" is used too many times, the reader understands and doesn't need constant reminding and certainly not twice in a sentence.

  • You have not addressed my point about the number of times Portsmouth is mentioned throughout the article.
  • I was going to do it as I went through the article while simultaneously addressing Dr. Blofeld's issues. Anyway, I've cut back on a few in the history and geography section, and will continue to do so as I go along. JAGUAR  16:43, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not a good idea to simply replace Portsmouth with "the town", sometimes it's not needed.
  • I've cut back on a few "town" mentions and rephrased them when they weren't needed. JAGUAR  19:06, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that, I've added mention of the Anglo-Saxon origin of the name through that source. I'll be happy to address your comments as they come. JAGUAR  11:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 19 is dead. I think the old chapel was enlarged, damaged, rebuilt and altered at various times but I think it would be fairer to say the Anglican Cathedral grew from what was the original chapel.
  • Archived and rephrased to "was rebuilt and enlarged from the original chapel". I refrained from going into too much detail here as it's mentioned in depth later on. JAGUAR  19:23, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have sorted out the first history section and removed dubious references. The prose needs a good copyedit and I am not convinced all the references are the best. Reference 19 contains a lot of the information and is a RS. J3Mrs (talk) 06:35, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I should have books hopefully coming through the post soon and will use them for the history section and anything else that's mentioned in them. I had to make do with mostly online sources for now, otherwise all the books used in the article I could access online (a couple of them were from FAs). When I'm done with Dr. Blofeld's comments I'll look through British History Online. JAGUAR  09:03, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be honest I think the article was very prematurely nominated and even after addressing the numerous points above, it still needs a very extensive copyedit and the removal of dubious sources. It really is not well written, there is much redundancy and repetition. I really don't think it is anywhere near GA status at present. Sorry. J3Mrs (talk) 20:58, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think a lot of it stems from the way it was researched which affects the flow in places because there's a lot of facts put together and some unrelated material in the same paragraphs. Sometimes you have to delete some material to improve the flow. It does need a lot of work, but given the work Jaguar has already put into improving it, it's more constructive to move forward and get it up to the level it should be. I'm happy to keep this open for weeks if needs be. A quick fail would not benefit anybody and only deter Jaguar from wanting to continue on it. It's better that it gets a vigorous review and improvement now. It doesn't have to FA quality, but it will still need a lot of work to get what needs to be done ironed out. I'm in no rush.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:18, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are certainly correct about the way its been put together but quite honestly it shouldn't have been nominated and I have doubts about Jaguar's prose. Some material on the Catholic Cathedral in the section I renamed Religion, was copied from the reference. Who mentioned FA quality, it's far from a GA at present. We've all put in the hours but that's no substitute for quality. J3Mrs (talk) 11:37, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Southsea a landmark? Its castle and pier, but surely not the whole thing. J3Mrs (talk) 19:29, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Blofeld I think keeping a nomination open is all well and good if it is being actively improved. But it is not. The more I read the more muddled it appears. You mentioned the Landmarks section yourself. I looked at the opening paragraph of Geography and changed a couple of things but really this sentence is complete nonsense.
"Because it is an island, it cannot easily expand, making it the most densely populated city in the British Isles."
It is not actively being improved because I'm waiting for Blofeld to resume the review. I prefer to copyedit as I go along. JAGUAR  21:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You could be sorting out what to do about Southsea or even addressing the point, I've just made. Changing odd words won't make this article a GA. J3Mrs (talk) 06:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Industrial Revolution to Victorian Muddled section and bitty, very similar to the reference it paraphrases.

  • According to the reference it is simply not true to say " first steam carriage, built for 12 people, was commissioned in Portsmouth". Seen doesn't mean commissioned.
  • Reworded to "sighted", as the source doesn't say much. While Dr. Blofeld is away I will take the opportunity to cleanup anything you consider choppy as well as addressing sourcing in the latter half of the article. JAGUAR  16:43, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • You might consider dropping the steam carriage and at least putting all the navy stuff together, the public services stuff together. Leave Brunel to the notable people unless there's something notable he did here. The muddle is the constant change of subject in a paragraph. J3Mrs (talk) 20:31, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It will need a thorough copyedit before I pass it but it's getting there. I'm busy at the moment, but I'll give it a full copyedit myself when I come back from a break in about 10 days. In the meantime if Jaguar could plug away and try to improve the flow and make it less "bitty", and double check the history sources and verification and try to replace that site that would be good.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:05, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's nowhere near, changing odd words is not enough. J3Mrs (talk) 20:31, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well Dr. Blofeld yet another week has gone by with absolutely no improvement. I made some suggestions which would have made a very small part of it less "bitty" but nothing has been done. I've only really looked at History in depth but a quick glance at Geography, noting that the second sentence that I pointed out above as utter nonsense hasn't been changed, doesn't fill me with confidence that this article can be passed in any reasonable amount of time. It's been a month and it's about time you decided. J3Mrs (talk) 08:14, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jaguar has some history books coming very soon. I'm willing to wait until he uses those. I agree that it would be good if he could work on copyediting it or ask for some copyediting assistance.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:26, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I applied for a grant last week to help me get this article to GA. I've literally just received Lake Allen's History of Portsmouth this morning and A Portsmouth Miscellany is still in the post. The book I have in my hands right now is very good; it covers the history of Portsmouth from the Anglo-Saxon era to 1800, so I'll use it to expand the history section as well as cleaning it up. The reason why I waited a week was because my grant application took a while to process and the books would arrive a little while longer. I've held off copyediting the history section until I got one of the books so I could merge some new content from a high quality source in order to make the overall section read less "bitty". Anyway, I've just submitted a GoCE request so that some fresh eyes could take a look at this article. There is no deadline, J3Mrs. All you've been doing over the past month is pressuring me with your negative attitude and it's almost putting me off editing the article. JAGUAR  11:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All I can say is you shouldn't submit articles that aren't ready. I usually get the books first. There is actually quite a lot you could have done without any books, looking for repetition and checking references for example. J3Mrs (talk) 13:01, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if I should remove the entire fourth paragraph in the early history section, as the sentence "The earliest detailed references to Portsmouth are found in the-13th century Southwick Cartularies..." is now meaningless due to Portsmouth being mentioned a lot in the Viking invasions. The bit about the chapel could probably be moved to the religion section too. The book I have covers an excellent amount of detail in medieval era, so for now I'm going to remove it if there aren't any objections. JAGUAR  14:32, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've started the History section again. As far as I can see nothing has been done about the "muddle" so I did it myself. J3Mrs (talk) 15:19, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Now the muddle is resolved in the opening sections the Southwick Cartularies sentence is relevant. However you have repeated yourself in religion. J3Mrs (talk) 15:19, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have clarified some points for the new reviewer. In my limited available time I have been unable to progress beyond the History section but after six weeks, and with little input from the nominator other than adding more facts and contributing more muddle, and such a large amount of work still to do, I think this could go on forever. The lead is indicative of the muddle. Is it 6 or 7 weeks since the review opened? More than enough time for anybody.
Thank you for addressing some of Iazyges' comments. What muddles are you finding in the lead and history section? I think it reads much better than it did before once I added new content from the books. It relies less on low quality online sources and around three quarters of the history section is now backed up by books, which is good. JAGUAR  15:11, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Para1 location, population ok Para2 History mostly naval, look at last sentence. Para3 Naval again, then cathedrals, Spinnaker Tower and Southsea Para4 Football, stations, port again, a vanished airport and Charles Dickens It's a random collection of facts with little cohesion and is a poor summary of the article. Anyway you need to get the rest in shape before polishing the lead. Just glancing through: but there's much more, not to mention copyediting

  • Landmarks, you conflate landmarks with tourist attractions. Tourism is surely part of the economy as is shopping.
  • Are there only three churches, no other religious buildings? You don't have to write about them all but give some indication. And look for what is said twice, you added it after all. When you add something it usually has to be copyedited in.
  • Future developments is part of Economy minus the politics.
  • How are Portsmouth FC stadium plans that were rejected in 2008 a future development? Its 90% irrelevant and dumped anywhere. A future stadium requires 3 or 4 sentences at most, not a sub heading to itself.
  • I can't believe the city's 4 railway stations aren't mentioned in Transport. Start with sea travel, roads, railways and a brief mention of the airport not how to get
  • Do we really need to know Portsmouths's old telephone codes or which public transport schemes never materialised?

There's a lot of "waffle" for example, look at Media and cut it by half. If you can't see these things, how can you put them right? You did ask. J3Mrs (talk) 16:29, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By "muddling" I thought you were referring to the prose, not organisation of the article. That's why I was confused and couldn't see what you were seeing. I agree with every one of your points except the lead – per WP:LEAD each paragraph needs to summarise the main body. Paragraph 1; basic geography and population, paragraph 2; history, paragraph 3; landmarks (tourism), paragraph 4; miscellaneous. I think you're looking at it wrong. And regarding paragraph 2 and 3 both being about naval, so what? Portsmouth is a naval city! Around 80% of this article is naval related so I don't see the harm in mentioning it more than once in the lead. Paragraph 4 could do with some oversight since I only wrote it a few days ago on Dr. Blofeld's request. The structure of the lead is fine as each paragraph is meant to summarise different aspects of the city. The lead is the only one of your points that I disagree with. I'll start addressing the rest now. JAGUAR  12:47, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The last sentence in paragraph 2 is more suited to paragraph 1. And since when has shopping been culture? The city has many museums, perhaps they would be more more suited to Culture, rather than Landmarks. Tourism is really part of Economy. J3Mrs (talk) 16:40, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I deleted 70% of the stadium proposals and moved the remainder to the economy section. I also added some minor places of worship to the religious section, though like you said, naming every one in the city isn't an option so I just indicated a few of the better known ones. Also deleted the telephone code paragraph. I kept the tourism in the tourism section... JAGUAR  12:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

New batch[edit]

@Jaguar: Are you working on this still? It is now approaching a stage where it should really be closed. How much more work do you plan on doing to the history? I'll give this a full read and edit tomorrow.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:24, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've just regained internet access. I was almost finished with the history section a few days ago but I think the bulk of it is done now. I expanded everything up to the industrial revolution section as that is how far the books cover. What do you think? I could start expanding the Gunwharf Quays section next. JAGUAR  17:16, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Romans built a fort at nearby Portchester,[9] which they named Portus Adurni." -could elaborate with enough sentence here to improve flow.
  • Added a little. JAGUAR  21:22, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Æthelwulf sent his general, Wulfherd, and the governor of Dorsetshire to confront the Danes at Portsmouth where most of their ships were docked. They were successful, although Wulfherd was killed." -when was this?
  • In the same year. Addressed. JAGUAR  21:22, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The city has several mainline railway stations, on two different direct South West Trains routes to London Waterloo, via Guildford and Basingstoke.[291]" - can you link the stations? The lede should have a bit on rail transport/roads, sport and media I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:38, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Linked. Will address the lead bit tomorrow. JAGUAR  21:22, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added a new paragraph in the lead. JAGUAR  19:18, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a lot of books in with the citations. I would move every book to the bibliography and convert to harv ref and put the author names in alpha order.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:49, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • All books converted to harv refs with the exception of one that didn't have an author. JAGUAR  18:49, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ten years later, in 1348, the town was struck by the Black Death, causing the death of Portsmouth's rector, Walter de Corf." -could use another sentence on it to elaborate
  • Strangely it's not mentioned at all in the book, but it goes into detail about other plagues that happened in different times. JAGUAR  22:00, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added more. JAGUAR  22:00, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr. Blofeld: all done! JAGUAR  19:18, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Went for a long run earlier so knackered haha! I'll give it my full attention tomorrow.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:23, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jaguar: Can you try to add some railway stations to the lede?♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:11, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think it would be a good idea to put them in the Transport section first? J3Mrs (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I asked Jaguar to do that the other week? On the 19th I said "The city has several mainline railway stations, on two different direct South West Trains routes to London Waterloo, via Guildford and Basingstoke.[291]" - can you link the stations? The lede should have a bit on rail transport/roads, sport and media I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:38, 19 September 2016 (UTC)"
Well he hasn't or I wouldn't have said, in fact he hasn't done much. You really can't keep this open forever, can you? J3Mrs (talk) 16:49, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I misunderstood it. I linked the Basingstoke and Guildford stations instead. Added the main railway stations - there are two. JAGUAR  12:20, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While most of the city has since been rebuilt, " -not in ref 97
  • Removed. JAGUAR  12:20, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ritchie333[edit]

  • There are a number of citation errors. The article references "Hewitt 2015", which is not a book listed in the "References" section. Please add importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js'); window.checkLinksToCitations = true; to your common.js and have a look.
  • Thanks, added. I fixed all the "Hewitt 2015" errors, it should have been 2013. Also fixed other errors I could find. JAGUAR  12:50, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of Portsmouth, the United Kingdom's only island city, is situated on Portsea Island. This looks odd. If it's an island city, surely all of it is on the Island?
  • Most of the sources I have been through attribute it to being the UK's only island city; the book I have now states that it sits on Portsea Island but later admits that it spread to the mainland in the late 20th century. I think there's no disputing the fact that Portsmouth is the only city that is truly on its own island, so I rephrased this a little to hopefully make it clearer. JAGUAR  21:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maps sometimes show Portsea Island as a peninsula, which is incorrect - what are examples of this? Certainly the Ordnance Survey maps and OpenStreetMap are all spot on as far as I can tell.
  • I agree, I can't find any proper examples so I'm going to remove this sentence if that's OK. I have never seen any maps from personal experience that show it as a peninsula, and I love local maps. JAGUAR  21:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sheltered Portsmouth Harbour lies to the west of Portsea Island - would be worth explaining why it is sheltered, even as a footnote, or is it obvious from looking at a map?
  • I found a source which states that the harbour is sheltered by the Isle of Wight, so I added that as a footnote. JAGUAR  21:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • To the south are the waters of the Solent with the approaches to Portsmouth Harbour and the Isle of Wight beyond - what does "with the approaches to ... beyond" mean here?
  • Rephrased to "which connects Portsmouth Harbour and the Isle of Wight". JAGUAR  21:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes www.portsmouth-guide.co.uk a reliable source?
  • I'm afraid I'm not sure, it looks like it hasn't been edited since 2005 and I can't find its puplisher. A large amount of this article's online sources are published by Portsmouth City Council, but I doubt portsmouth-guide is anything official. If you think it's best then I don't mind removing it? JAGUAR  21:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The main southern part of the city comprises the area known as Southsea - don't you mean the island? I thought Southsea was a separate entity to Portsmouth, hence the station name
  • Southsea is part of Portsmouth and is situated on the south coast of the island. It's safe to say that everything on the island is Portsmouth! I rephrased to make it clearer. JAGUAR  21:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The hill is the location of several large Palmerston Forts which consist of smaller forts - what does this mean exactly?
  • Added more - thankfully the book I have goes into detail about the forts. I hope that I made it clearer. JAGUAR  21:39, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are two main shopping centres.... - this seems a strange place to jump from physical geography to retail - is there no other better place to put this?
  • Moved the shopping centres to culture. JAGUAR  21:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:08, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ritchie333: thank you so much for the comments! I've attempted to clarify everything you mentioned above. I'm not sure about the portsmouth-guide link, if you think it's best I can remove it and try and find something in one of the history books instead. JAGUAR  21:39, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Iazyges[edit]

  • "When King Henry II died in 1189, his son Richard I arrived in Portsmouth from France" maybe say what he was doing there? Done
  • "And exempted it from paying an annual tax of £18." Does this mean the town had to pay that tax or each individual did? perhaps some clarification. Its the town no need to mention town twice
  • I should imagine the people paid it, so I rephrased the sentence. JAGUAR  15:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He established the permanent naval base and the first docks were built by William of Wrotham from 1212 onwards." "Maybe he established a naval base, which still exists." as the wording in this is a little weird. Clarified
  • ", Henry III assembled a force described as "one of the finest armies that had ever been raised in England" in 1230[25] but the invasion stalled and returned in October 1231" does return mean back to england from france, or back to their homes from england? Clarified
  • " and in 1295 Edward I sent supplies for transport to his army in France." maybe take out "for transport" Done
  • "Two years later, another French fleet led by Nicholas Béhuchet raided Portsmouth, destroying much of the town,[30] with only the local church and hospital surviving" was the church and hospital surviving intentional?
  • The source given doesn't say, and the book I have doesn't say why either, so I'll have to leave it at that. JAGUAR  15:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After the raid, Edward III gave the town exemption from national taxes to aid reconstruction" does this mean that edward had revoked the privileges?
  • The privileges remained and had been around for a very long time. I don't think there's any point in mentioning that King John's privileges remained because it wasn't mentioned in the source given and seems a bit irrelevant. JAGUAR  15:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:33, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have clarified some but will look at the rest of the paragraphs later. J3Mrs (talk) 08:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, Iazyges! J3Mrs has kindly addressed some of the points in my absence, and I have clarified the rest. The sources doesn't say why the church and hospital survived and I can't find anything on John's privileges being revoked either. JAGUAR  15:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Intermezzo[edit]

While the article has been improved a lot, this review doesn't seem to have any end in sight. I think J3Mrs makes a valid comment that we should perhaps just cut our losses, close the review as "not listed" and improve it out of the spotlight. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:31, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Despite the flurry of action I have to agree, it's been nearly two months which considering what's been done is more than enough time. J3Mrs (talk) 14:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything left in this review which I haven't addressed? Go on, take a look. JAGUAR  14:19, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To quote myself, "Just glancing through: but there's much more, not to mention copyediting". You can't expect somebody to come along and spoon-feed every little point to you, at some stage I would expect you to take some responsibility for looking for things yourself. J3Mrs (talk) 14:27, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you looked through my contributions you will see that I haven't edited since the 25th, due to the fact that I had to drop my computer off for diagnostics and was thus unable to edit Wikipedia. Today I have come back and addressed most of your issues with the exception of those I disagreed with. If you can point out to me in broad strokes what you else you think can be improved, then I will do it. You can't expect me to address things that I don't know. What is it? Copyediting? Organisation? Sourcing? The whole point of a GA review is for reviewers (you) to explain what needs tweaking and not for me to guess what you're thinking. JAGUAR  14:35, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would have quick failed this article. You have had nearly two months and to . I don't have the time or inclination to go through every point. Try reading WP:UKCITIES, that's how I learned how to write a settlement article. I'm not doing it for you. J3Mrs (talk) 14:55, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All I asked was for you to point out what you think needs improving (even vaguely would have helped) and you're refusing to do so? I've been polite and patient with you for a month and held myself back with your obnoxious behaviour because I appreciated your copy edits to the article. Your comment about the lead's paragraphs were wrong, by the way. I don't tolerate rude people. JAGUAR  15:09, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't be so ridiculous. The article is not up to GA standard. You are not the only editor who has been patient. Perhaps you could have learned something from my copyedits, like getting rid of redundant words and padding. Don't be ridiculous was a reply to "so to copy your shrillness all I can say is "don't post here again" which was removed after I posted it J3Mrs (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimately, it is Dr. Blofeld's decision whether or not to keep the review open, so let's wait for his views. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:09, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]


GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

No doubt one could still find many issues with the article if they tried but it doesn't have to be perfect for GA, and the article can still be copyedited to improve flow and quality. But the article does contain information on what is required and provides a reasonably competent overview of the city, so I'm going to pass it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:37, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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