Talk:Portuguese language in Africa

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This article needs to be expanded.

learnportuguese 20:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Title

"As an official language, African Portuguese" oh please... this sounds ridiculous. This should be an article to talk about the five countries, and not trying to create stuff from the soap bobble world. ---Pedro (talk) 22:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I could change it to 'Portuguese language in Africa' if you like. The page links to the other five and simply acts as an introduction to the others. I also included some links to useful online material speaking generally about lusophone Africa. It's just a starting point. Fadooski

Some months ago, I was considering to propose this page for deletion because there is no such thing called “African Portuguese”. This is a term used indiscriminately by non-scholars to refer to any or all varieties of Portuguese spoken in Africa, without differentiating them. Meanwhile this page has moved to “Portuguese in Africa”, which I think is a better name. However, there is still work to be done. The way that the text is written may lead to some confusion, and induce the reader to the false information that the five varieties of Portuguese spoken in Africa form a cluster, and they have more affinities among themselves than to European Portuguese. The fact is that they are as different between themselves as they are different to European Portuguese. Any suggestions? Ten Islands (talk) 12:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm the one who been rewriting the page. I've never been to these places so I can only know so much! I defer to anyone who knows more. My intention isn't to make the PALOP varieties seem like a cluster, necessarily but there is only so much information I have access to. I only wanted to have this be an introduction to language isuuses in PALOP and to point out the similarity of context (mostly L2 speakers, multilingual societies etc.). If you want to make additions about how the national varieties differ from eachother, I welcome it. Are you the one who wrote the Capeverdian creole article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.33.236.133 (talk) 00:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I would like to make some additions (both here and in the Portuguese version), but I prefer to gather sources first. Some people might think that my edits are an original research... The problem is that (as far as I know) no PALOP country has an official Portuguese language regulator, therefore, any text about the particularities of the Portuguese language in each of those countries does not say if those particularities are standard, generalized or localized, socially accepted or socially deprecated, etc.
I didn’t “write” the Cape Verdean Creole article, it existed before. I only expanded it.
Ten Islands (talk) 16:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

• This article has significant problems, that are not true at all. Although the effort is good, there's the need for review and adding sources. for instance, it states that the african dialects are becoming distinct from European Portuguese, this is of course false, we are on the age of tv and global communications! it is the reverse. African accents are becoming too similar to European Portuguese, a problem that also happens in Portugal itself, it is because of TV, you tell me, in the past these were more distinct, in you see that in Angolan or Sao Tomean Portuguese, because these two countries are adopting the modern standard, while their traditional accent is a lot similar to the Brazilian, because all three developed at the same time, and with some relation, in the 18th century. --Pedro (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
  • While there may be some convergence due to media, to say that the PALOP countries are simply speaking european portuguese is a little simplistic and, frankly neo-colonialist. I'd rather wait until TenIslands has a chance to add more since he seems better informed than either of us. Again, the point of the page is to talk generally about the Portuguese language in the region, i.e. throughout Africa. There are specific pages for each country already. And don't the PALOP countries receive brazilian media too? So wouldn't Brazilian Portuguese be an influence as much as European Portuguese? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.33.239.229 (talk) 20:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• please sir, let's keep the conversation at a good level. And avoid nonsense.

Brazilian Portuguese is perceived not as a standard dialect but as an accent. Brazilian tv does reach there, but only the main brazilian channels (Record, Globo) most of the tv channels broadcast from Portugal, from news channels to childrens channel, even American-based channels like Disney or National Geographic. And there's now a competition in cable networks in Angola for the Portuguese language content from Portuguese cable networks. But that is really irrelevant!!! that country, specifically, became independent in 1976 (yesterday). there is now Angolan TV in Portugal, so things work in both ways, and of course the TV standard is exactly the same as in Portugal. Portugal doesnt need to do neocolonialism like France is doing in Africa, it doesnt have the money, the will or the need, the situation is different. Portuguese language has strong and old roots in Angola. And everything, the standard (your European Portuguese) and the local accents are rooted there. besides you arent aware of the growing influence that Angola has in Portugal, with oil money. With time the standard may get a strong local flavour, but that is astrology. -Pedro (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Intro

In the article, it states "What makes these varieties of Portuguese logical[citation needed] to group together separately from those of Brazil and Portugal is their common origin in Subsaharan Africa's colonial history and the fact that African Portuguese co-exists with Portuguese-based creoles (Upper Guinea and Gulf of Ginuea Creoles) and autochthonous African languages (Niger-Congo family)."

this is of course incorrect, there's nothing common excepting for being in the same continent and having their independence in the 1970s. We have:

1. Cape Verde with its dominant creoles, and a population that is well educated in standard Portuguese (which is impressive).
2. Another situation is Guinea-Bissau where even the creole is not a national language, west African languages, Portuguese is urban and spoken by a minority.
3. Another is Sáo Tomé where Portuguese is dominant over the creoles, which became more like adult socialites. It has old dialects of Portuguese.
4. Yet another is Angola, where Portuguese is also dominant, but it coexists with several Bantu language. it has old dialects of Portuguese and Portuguese pidgin.
5. and finally Mozambique where Portuguese is an urban language, and completely foreign in the countryside. Something like in French Africa. English influence.

Perhaps I missed it, but I saw no reference to the unique accent of the inhabitants of the Azores Islands. Having spent virtually two years in Brazil and three years in Portugal, I can tell you that the Portuguese I heard while visiting five of the Azores Islands, is uniquely different from Continental Portuguese or Brazilian Portuguese. It sounded a lot like French to me. But the Islands make up in beauty what they may lack in the unique sounds of the Azorean Portuguese. ˜˜˜˜ Besides Angolan accents sound very different from Mozambicans. Don't see much of what the lead is trying to say!

Anyway, saying that French and English compete with Portuguese in these countries is a bit too exaggerated. --Pedro (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Madeira as an African country?

An editor added Madeira islands in this article on Portuguese in Africa. I removed it as althought technically correct, it makes no sense otherwise. My deletion has since been reverted. Let's look at it: Madeira is on the African tectonic plate. FULL STOP. That's as African as it gets. It is fine to include it on articles on ocean currents, winds, bird migrations, and all sorts of natural phenomena. It is however, preposterous to now start including Madeira in an article on Africa languages. To include Madeira as a place in Africa where Portuguese is spoken, it to say that Portuguese is thus an African language, albeit from outside Africa, just like Arabic. That means we will have to change a few thousand occurrences in the WP of Portuguese referred to as a colonial language and change it to an indigenous African language on a par with Arabic. To do that, are far do we go? Do we now start adding all things Madeiran to other African-related articles?

• Do we now add Madeira - and by extension Portugal - as PALOP country?
• Do we now list the bailinho da Madeira as an African dance?
• Do we now list Madeira wine and Madeira cake as African products? Boy, is this going to be a real headache for the EU and Africa and the whole APC trade talks!!!!!!
• Do we now start counting the 350.000 Madeiran people in South Africa as Africans? Does that mean they cease to be settlers?
• Do we now start counting the thousands of Madeiran people in the United States as African-Americans?
• Do we now say the ukulele is based on the African instrument, the Machete (musical instrument), from the African island of Madeira?
• Do we now reopen all the unending discussions and arguments over who is an African to now state categorically that Madeirans are Africans, just like Afrikaners?
• If Madeira is African, and Portugal by extension, then Guinea-Bissau, Angola, were not Portuguese colonies, but merely part of Portuguese territoral expansion, just like the Arab expansion into North Africa (never referred to as Arab colonies/ colonisation) or the Russian expansion eastward (never referred to as Russian colonies/colonisation)

When you have answered all the questions above, start again, this time with the Canary islands and Spanish and things related to the Canary Inlands in mind, where applicable. Get real, guys! Adding this bit of information is really bashing open the proverbial Pandora's box. I see no good coming out of it, it will set a precedent that will throw a lot of our work into disarray. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 00:12, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I have since removed the text in question. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:49, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Removal of section "Local norms and norms of reference"

I removed the section "Local norms and norms of reference", marking it clearly as "WP:OR", which editor PedroPVZ reverted. @PedroPVZ, kindly comment on the following questions, if you please:

• European Portuguese spoken in Coimbra and Lisbon. There is no such thing. There is the Portuguese spoken in cengtral Portugal, ranging from and including the Lisbon area to and including the area around Coimbra.
• forms the basis for the written and spoken norm. Does the rest of Portugal have different written norms?
• although there are local variations of the language. Please provide a scientific source by authors considered an authority on the matter
• As the number of both L1 and L2 speakers increases, one can see the emergence of distinct national varieties of Portuguese specific to each country. Please provide a scientific source by authors considered an authority on the matter
• Some aspects of phonology of African dialects in Angola, and São Tomé and Príncipe share similarities with Brazilian dialects. What does this exactly mean? What African dialects are we speaking about? And what Brazilian dialexts are we speaking about?
• So how is this different from Guinea-Bissau and Mozambique?
• younger generations and upper class, in both countries, tend to use standard (European) pronunciation. Younger generations speak what they are exposed to - most speak like their parents.
• In Angolan journalism, both the "estar+gerund" and the "estar a+infinitive" constructions are acceptable for the present progressive tense. When last did you read an Angolan newspaper?
• Another example is in pronominal syntax where the placement of object pronouns can be placed before or after the relevant verb. I wonder how readers actually understand what this is trying to say
• In Cape Verdean Portuguese, compound tenses are favoured over simple tenses due to the influence of Cape Verdean Creole. ????Really??? Please provide examples with sources
• Unlike Portugal and Brazil, the PALOPs are multilingual societies. Wilson Trajano Filho differentiates between Brazil and Portugal which are focused speech communities and the PALOPs which are diffused speech communities. What exactly is this saying? And who is "Wilson Trajano Filho"?
• Omar Ribeiro Thomaz maintains that Portuguese is used to communicate concepts and realities unique to each society. What exactly is this saying? And who is "Omar Ribeiro Thomaz"?
• In the varieties of Portuguese spoken in the mainland PALOPs, this results in large amounts of lexical borrowing from these languages. From which languages?
• In Angola and Mozambique, large numbers of Portuguese words have been incorporated into their indigenous languages. Not so in Guinea-Bissau?*Portuguese is the main source of new words for the various lusophone creoles spoken on the continent. I would be very surprised if it was Hindustani!
• This complex relationship between Portuguese and these other languages has implications for language planning in the African member states of the CPLP. Exactly what is this saying? What complex relationship? What "other languages"? How does the CPLP come into this?

Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 13:53, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

The only post-colonial European language that can face French and English in Africa is Portuguese, without a shadow of a doubt. 186.214.255.228 (talk) 02:47, 8 June 2021 (UTC)