Talk:President of Peru

Comment

Luis La Puerta 1879 seems to be missing. Xauxa 10:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Bad Dates?

The dates with Miguel Iglesias and Antonio Arenas seem inconsistent. They ought to be fixed.

--Nogburt (talk) 18:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Alberto Fujimori

Please note that User:Messhermit has been banned from editing the Alberto Fujimori entry [1], yet User:Messhermit has continued to make edits regarding Alberto Fujimori [2] User:Bdean1963 8 February, 2007

Would you mind stop chasing ghost and solve the disputes in War of the Pacific and Tacna Region? That would help a lot to improve those articles. Thanks Messhermit 19:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Alberto Fujimori officially submitted his resignation on November 19, 2000. Federico Salas (then Prime Minister) was in charge of submitting this document (with the signatures of the Prime Minister and Vice-presidents) to the Peruvian Parliament.

Fujimori remained de facto President for 3 more days until the election of Valentin Paniagua on November 22, 2000 by Congress. The whole story of the fax resignation doesn't make any sense at all since in case it was real it was not a document endorsed by the Peruvian Government. A fax was actually forwarded to his sympathizers. Hopefully, this would end this nonsense. Messhermit 19:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a million and one sources saying that he did indeed send his resignation via fax. Do you have any sources that say that he didn't? I'd be interested in reading them. Also, how do you think he physically got his resignation from Tokyo to Lima if not a fax? Mail? One more question: why is it "anti-Fujimori bias" to point out that he submitted it via fax? Is there something particularly bad about fax machines or something? --Descendall 23:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

There are certain procedures that must be followed before a Head of State and Government resigns. Your million sources can say whatever they might like (Most likely from left-leaning NGO) but other don't. Even Lori Berenson's webpage has more or less accurate information about what happened. Another source [3] clearly states that Parliament rejected Fujimori's resignation and impeached him by a simple majority vote and not the required 2/3. Ironically, when Alejandro Toledo was about to be impeached in 2004, his party defended the 2/3 arguments and stated that simple majority is not enough.

Now, regarding fax machines. let's be honests here: It's clear that you are no neutral person when dealing with anything related with Fujimori. So stop playing the innocent here. Messhermit 00:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you want to answer any of the questions I asked, or not? Because if not I'll just reinsert it with verifiable sources, and then you'll take it out, and then you'll get in trouble with the admins for taking out verifiable information. If you want to play that game, I'm willing to play it. I'm trying to avoid it now. --Descendall 02:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Didn't you read the link that I provide? Here, I'll post it again: [4]. Do you read anything regarding a fax? You don't have to be smart to realize that the whole story was fabricated by his political enemies; same thing with his citizenship. Wikipedia shouldn't base its information on political vendettas.

I already know that you have an explosive and intolerant character, and I personally don't have to tolerate any treat or misbehavior. You don't want troubles, and I don't want them either, but If I have to go that way in order to prevent clear bias against a political figure of my country, you don't leave me too much of a choice. I have done the same thing for Fernando Belaunde and Alan Garcia, Peruvian politicians that at one point you freely labeled them as "terrorist".

And to answer your questions once again: There are certain procedures that must be followed before a Head of State and Government resigns and no, a fax (even if the story was true) is not one of them. Messhermit 14:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, we should discuss this in parts. The way that I stated that paragraph is clearly apolitical and accurate: He resigned - Congress rejects his resignation - Congress impeaches him – end of his Presidency. you might want to expand this and include the resignation of his two vicepresidents and the impeachment agains Martha Hildebrand, the Fujimorista President of Congress. Messhermit 14:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your last edition on the grounds that "I assumed" that you wanted to avoid troubles and discuss this on the talk page, Descendall. Please restrain from acting unilaterally and imposing your bias here; it doesn't look good that a retired Wikipedian is creating problems. Messhermit 16:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Do me a favor and assume that I'm even more stupid than you think I am, and explain this as if you were explaining it to a five year old, because I still don't understand.

• I'm trying to talk with you in a civilized manner, so please avoid the sarcasm. I know that you don't agree with me in several political issues, but I deserve at least some respect. Messhermit 02:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't being sarcastic. I really just need this explained more clearly for me. I don't get it. --Descendall 03:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

1. I have provided a reliable source stating the Alberto Fujimori faxed his resignation to Peru. Do you have a reliable source stating that Fujimori did not fax his resignation to Peru? The Chinese webpage that you sent me don't metion a resignation one way or another. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

• Of course, there are several books that state that Polish cavalry charged agains German Tanks during WWII, something that is ovbiously not accurate at all. The whole thing about the letter of resignation is still controvertial because both sides say something different. Nevertheless, the official letter of resignation cannot be a faxed document; no government in the world would accept that. President Richard Nixon had to sign his resignation letter and submitted to Congress, the same way that Boris Yeltsin did in Russia. Messhermit 02:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure you realize that the burden of providing some sort of reliable source is on you. Surely if this is a truly controversial area, you could find at least one source saying so. I can't find one, so you have to. It's really that simple, and you know that. As for there not being any government in the world that would accept it, I can certainly think of one: The United States would.

The US Constitution only requires that Presidential "write" and "transmit" any statement about his inability to discharge the duties of the presidency to the President Pro Tem of the Senate and the Speaker of the House. In more serious times, the majority of the cabinent can actually overrule the president and make the decision for him. You can imagine that in such a case the declaration would be faxed; if the president was ever so gravely wounded that he was unable to discharge his duties, he wouldn't be expected to personally hand over some declaration with a big gold seal on it, he'd be expected to sign something and get it to the damn Congress as quickly as possible.

Richard Nixon didn't submitted a photocopy of his resignation letter to Congress; he actually had to sign it. A photocopy of an official document that is not legally certified doesn't have any legal value anywhere in the world and you know that. If you fax me your SSN with your signature and I attempt to use it to prove that its you, nobody will agree with that. Messhermit 19:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the government of Peru is more strict that the US government, but even then it'd be besides the point. You're essentially arguing that if Fujimori faxed his resignation, Congress would have never accepted it. Well, Congress didn't accept it.

But that's all besides the point. The real point is that I'm asking for some sort of evidence that someone besides yourself has said that Fujimori's resignation wasn't faxed, and you have yet to provide it. --Descendall 03:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

No, once again you are putting words in my mouth. The way that I see it here is that it doesn't matter the argument, you want to see the word "faxed" somewhere here. Now, regarding sources, I already stated that there are hundreds and maybe thousands books that state that Polish Cavalry charged against German Tanks. Does that means that they are correct? the fact (because those things are written in the net by mainly anti-fujimori journalist) that you might find pages that state that he faxed (even if its later proved to be wrong) his resignation makes it true? Since when quantity makes quality? Messhermit 19:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

2. How do you think his resignation got from Japan to Lima if not via fax? Air mail? DHL? Telegram? Diplomatic cable?

• Valentin Paniagua state that he "recieved a letter of resignation" from Fujimori after he was elected President of Congress. He didn't state how he recieved. Messhermit 02:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you thus saying that you have absolutely no reliable sources that say the Fujimori didn't fax his resignation? --Descendall 03:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• It simply depends on what you consider reliable. I have read several webapges and none of them state how did Paniagua recieved the resignation, but one thing is for sure: There was a letter in Lima with Fujimori's signature (not a fax) and the signatures of Prime Minister Federico Salas and the rest of the Council that clearly stated that Fujimori is resigning from the Presidency of Peru.
• This article of CNN [5] quotes Prime Minister Salas: "President Alberto Fujimori confirmed ... that he is resigning as president. In the course of 48 hours, he is going to formalize the decision with the newly elected president of the Congress."
• Now, another thing is that Congress reject it with questionable methods: A president is not removed by simple majority and that's something stated in the constitution. They didn't rejected the any fax. They simply rejected an official document from the current executive branch of the Peruvian Government. Messhermit 19:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

3. Why do you think that pointing out that Fujimori used a fax machine is an example of "clear bias" against him? I fax things out quite often in my job, and I can honestly say that I've never found the operation of a fax machine to be particularly denigrating. Do you find the use of a fax machine to be more denigrating than, say, the use of UPS? If so, can you explain why to me? --Descendall 20:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• I simply don't understand your obsession to state that Fujimori "submitted his resignation by fax". Are you trying to diminish Fujimori's attempt to set up an organized transition? Messhermit 02:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm trying to say what actually happened. I have no doubt that Fujimori would have wanted there to be a better organized transition, and he would have wanted it to happen way different than it actually did. But that's not the point. The point it we should describe what actually happened. --Descendall 03:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

If you loved the way that it happened or not, or if Fujimori actually like or not is not the real question here. I may have to refresh your mind: There were rumors in the capital about a Coup d'etat orchestated by Montesinos and the military loyal to him. Congress refused to recognize Ricardo Marquez as President because of his political weakness and the fears of a military-civil dictatorship completely in control of Montesinos. Carlos Boloña was even approached by pro-montesinos elements from the military to assume the Presidency in case of a coup against Fujimori. Not a nice political environment for any President in power. Messhermit 19:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I do have 2 assigments for this weekend and my reply in this conversation might turn out to be rather slow. Still, I believe that talking is better than engaging in an uncivilized rv war. Messhermit 19:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that civilized conversation is the best way to go, and I honestly and frankly thank you for engaging me in this conversation, despite our past problems. Like you, I also have some pretty important stuff to take care of this weekend. I'll respond by the end of it. Finally, as someone who graduated from college fairly recently, a word of advice: your school work is a million times more important than some footnote on a list page on wikipedia. --Descendall 05:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• As a tenured University professor, I am delighted to hear that User:Messhermit will be taking the wise advice of another recent college graduate User:Descendall and do his homework this weekend. I trust you will have time to review the recent changes regarding former President Fujimori's faxed resignation, which as noted, is a fact widely documented in both the scholarly and popular press. User:Bdean1963 17 February 2007

Messhermit removed the above text from this page, but I'm going to restore it because I don't think that is was disruptive and because I'd like to avoid the outbreak of hostilities on this talk page. Let's just leave it as is. --Descendall 17:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Please note that User:Bdean1963 has already been blocked once for attempting to introduce his POV in other Peru-related topics. I'm not going to allow a Revert War here, and if User:Bdean1963 has something to say I'm sure he is reasonable enough to know that "Talk Pages" are for that purpose. It is not possible that as soon as I turn mi back on one article and he is already creating troubles. Let's avoid that. Messhermit 17:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Descendall, I'm surely aware that you don't believe the last comment of User:Bdean1963 was neutral. It is more than clear that he loves to use "ad hominem" attacks against my person. I don't believe his last edition here helped the discussion at all, and I'm sure you are not going to disagree with that.

I can tell you that I honestly meant my "suggestion" to be a friendly comment and I think you can at least interperate Bdean's comment to be the same. If you don't like it, I think you should just leave to to prevent a revert war over nothing. Let's let cooler heads prevail. Anyway, I have to head out now, so we'll continue this later. --Descendall 17:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks dont help us resolve the problems nor are the alleged qualifications or lack thereof make the slightest difference as far as wikipedia is concerned (we work on consensus and policies not on who is allegedly expert having the final say though other encyclopedias do work on that basis). I think in this article we should keep the Fujimori refences as succinct as possible and the info about the fax fails notability in terms of inclusion in this article, SqueakBox 17:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

MacClintock and Vallas clearly state that Fujimori faxed in his resignation, but that congress rejected it. That has to be the last word, unless someone can find a riposte to their book where the claim is disputed. The "Polish cavalry" stuff, to follow on from Messhermit's example, is specifically rebutted by many later writers. That's what's needed here. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Seven years have passed since Fujimori left power, and in Peru there is still much controversy regarding his actions. In the case of the fax, I already stated that it depends on who do you wanna believe; but the fact is that the Peruvian Congress rejected an "official" letter of resignation with the signatures of Alberto Fujimori and Prime Minister Federico Salas - not a fax. Messhermit 18:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Attempts to denigrate Fujimori were clearly abundant during the Toledo Administration - with or without evidence. Political opponents of Fujimori have even claimed that he is not peruvian - should Wikipedia state every single political vendetta against him? No, because its not to us to decide if he's guilty or not. He resigned the Presidency and that's the only thing that should be stated here. Other things are just "Red Herring" fallacies attempting to mislead the reader with non-enciclopedic arguments. Messhermit 18:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Coup d'Etat

I don't know if the "discussion" above had anything to do with what I am about to bring up (I read through all of it, and I am still not sure I know). Why does the entry for Fujimori say "Coup d'Etat" under "direct elections?" Fujimori never came to power via coup, he was elected all 3 times. What am I missing? Rafajs77 (talk) 14:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

What you are missing is that strictly speaking, he did seize power via coup in 1992. It was actually what it was called a self-coup (autogolpe). Fujimori, supported by the army, (illegally) dissolved the Congress, judiciary system and took the whole power. By doing this he immediately stopped being a Constitutional President and the Congress, following the Constitution, declared first Vice-President San Roman to be the new President. However Fujimori and the army established their dominance. Calin99 (talk) 21:30, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Manuel Odría

This page lists his '50-'56 term as a result of direct elections. Is that really correct? My understanding, and it could be way off, is that he got third place in the elections, but became president via some political-military wheeling and dealing. "Direct elections" makes it sound like it was actually some sort of repectable democratic process. I'm not sure that's correct. --Descendall 08:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Odria was the only candidate allowed in that election (1950). His other rival, General Montagne was imprisoned by Interim President Noriega under charges of corruption. Undisputed, he was easily elected President. Regardless of any political conspiracy, he was elected under popular vote. Messhermit 18:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I just didn't know what the deal was with him. I told you I don't know what I'm talking about. --Descendall 23:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

What you mentions is the elections of 1962: Victor Raul Haya de la Torre ended up being the first place, with Belaunde and Odria in the 2nd and 3th place with allegations of fraud in favor of the APRA. However, because the military was not willing to see Haya de la Torre as President, the APRA party negociated the return of Odria as President in order to avoid a Coup d'etat, since the elections was then suppose to be decided in Parliament. Unfortunately, a faction of the Army ousted President Prado y Ugarteche 10 days before the end of his term, declared the elections null and void, and promised new elections (while suppresing the APRA) in 1963. Messhermit 21:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

35?

Should Augusto B. Leguía y Salcedo 1919-07-04/1930-08-25 be 35? Also, what does his "Direct Elections Coup d'état" mean? -- Jeandré, 2007-04-12t12:06z

Fujimori was elected in 1990, and carried out a coup d'état in 1992. --69.142.108.40 (talk) 09:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Máximo San Román

This list should probably at least mention Máximo San Román, who was sworn in as the president in late April 1992. San Román did claim to be the president for quite some time. The problem was that the military refused to recognize him. Basically, Fujimori claimed that San Román's swearing in was illegal, because the Congress had been suspended by the autogolpe at the time that it swore him in. Of course the counter-argument is that the autogolpe itself was illegal (something which the Peruvian courts recently recognized), and thus San Román was the de jure President. I know that as of a few months ago, the current Congress was considering a bill to once again recognize San Román as a former president to elimiate all doubt. I have no idea what happened with that bill, however. --69.142.108.40 (talk) 09:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

As of July of 2007, Congress has not stated anything regarding San Roman status as a former President. Nevertheless, San Roman did not manage to gather enough Senators and Deputies (as the Constitution of 1979 demanded) to be sworn as Constitutitional President in 1992. Messhermit (talk) 12:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:MoralesBermúdezPeru.jpg

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numbering incorrect?

I have corrected the numbering. One president was not counted. If this is controversial, just discuss it. I haven't seen any controversy about it. Chergles (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Self Contradiction Tag

There was a contradiction tag on this article from July 2008. The issue centered around the multiple presidents at president no. 24. (3 presidents at the same time). I took the liberty of checking and simple searches showed the controversy surrounding the presidency at that time. I removed the conflict tag. If someone still feels there is a conflict, please re-add the tag or preferably, fix the problem. Thanks much Kjnelan (talk) 16:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Color code please?

See, the table of Peruvian presidents doesn't have a color code. If it's not there, how am I supposed to know what each color on the table means? Add a color key.

Dinokid 01:46, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Mistake

Andrés Avelino Cáceres and Miguel Iglesias have the same term, judging by the article on the later it probably is a msitake ~~Xil (talk) 20:23, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

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Fujimori

There were elections in November 1992. Why Fujimori is dictator till 1995?

By the way, Yeltsin is not listed as a dictator in 1993. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

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List of Presidents is Super Ambiguous

For any random Wikipedia reader, reading the list of first ten Presidents is barely understandable. I think there needs to be a bit of a cleanup there.

For instance, 3,4,5,6 "government junta" should be outlined better. Maybe include four pictures and one caption? Also the first president comes after the sixth...

Another note, there is no need to add the Presidents of the Republic of South Peru. There is no section on the Confederacy's presidents under President of the United States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoctorSpeed (talk • contribs) 16:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Cheers, DoctorSpeed ✉️ ✨

Demographics of the presidents

I edited the demographics section to better reflect Kuczynski’s ancestry, but it was immediately undone. I don’t know what the procedure is for any of this, but I don’t understand what the problem was with my edit.

2601:186:4303:AB30:5550:6CAB:7224:9DA (talk) 15:13, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

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D

D 12.15.231.98 (talk) 20:04, 22 February 2022 (UTC)