Talk:Princess Leonore, Duchess of Gotland/Archive 1

Archive 1

Relevant already

I believe the following facts are relevant to this artucle already, if there is to be an article at all:

1. The girl is an American citizen by birth;
2. As such, if given a title by her grandfather (which she will be, as reported in Sweden), she will never be able to work for the U. S. government in an elected, appointed or any other position, high or low;
3. Only an Act of Congress for this girl could remove that limitation on her citizenship.

I added these facts and referenced them to the exact spot in the Constitution of the United States, but they were removed as irrelevant by another user. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:29, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I share your misgivings about the article, as the child is not going to have any official role. I would much rather see it as a redirect, once we know her name. Anyway, please read about using primary sources such as the Constitution. Long story short - we do not use them. If it is relevant, it will be reported by secondary sources. If it is reported by secondary sources, restore it and cite them. I doubt anyone has noted that (but I may very well be wrong); it seems to me that her status as one of only five people eligible to become head of state of Sweden is much more important than her possible (yet unlikely) future as a US police officer. Surtsicna (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

You have misunderstood what you are citing. "Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. Primary sources may or may not be independent or third-party sources. An account of a traffic accident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the accident; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources" (my bolding) - nothing here applies to the use of text in the U.S. Constitution in this case or in any other case that I can think of.

The complication re: limiting her future from birth is highly relevant. She won't be able to run for federal office or be an ambassador or a member of a Presidential cabinet. I don't know whay you're talking about police officers - the Constitution does not specify any such positions (and there isn't even any such thing as a "US police officer"). --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

"A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge." That's exactly the case here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:03, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Has her future been limited yet? Has anyone other than you noted this, i.e. has any reliable source mentioned that she would never be able to become a US ambassador? Surtsicna (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

OK surtsicna, time to relax. The AfD is in full swing and frankly neither you nor me can effect that result. Do you edits but you also has to be ready to responds to issues raised by other users. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 21:01, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I am afraid I do not understand at all what you are trying to say. Surtsicna (talk) 22:30, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, the article is not going to be deleted by the looks of the AfD discussion. So I wish you a good evening. Regards.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:35, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Pardon me, but how is that relevant to the claim that she would not be able to work for the US government? Have you confused this talk page with the AfD page? Surtsicna (talk) 00:02, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it's merely an interpretation that she can't work for the US government--there's another interpretation that she would have no such problem (that reading looks at verb tense: somebody who already has a govt job can't accept a title of nobility, but somebody who has the title first can take the job). Since there are multiple possible interpretations, there's no straightforward descriptive statement of facts, and you'd need a secondary source to make such a statement. Biblioteqa (talk) 19:48, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Titles and Styles

If the fight over the titles and styles of royal babies is going to reappear on this page, can we format Leonore's T&S like Estelle's? That is:

Estelle is styled as: Her Royal Highness Princess Estelle of Sweden, Duchess of Östergötland.

It gets rid of the bullet point that has caused acrimony at times and it gets rid of the date question, since this removes the date completely. Metheglyn (talk) 20:58, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is the most sensible solution. Surtsicna (talk) 23:12, 27 February 2014 (UTC)