Talk:Pulcinella (ballet)

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Classical music: Compositions

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Untitled

"Stravinsky based most of the composition on existing Baroque scores he found in libraries in Naples and London."; I read somewhere that Sergei Diaghilev had actually found them and started the whole thing by handing them to Stravinsky. --213.176.148.218 22:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Petrushka (ballet)?

Petrushka (ballet) is a more complete article and they are the same ballet under different names. Is there anything this article has that the other does not?IanThal 20:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This suggests that they are two distinct ballets.--Atavi 14:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It more suggests that they are two names given to distinguish between an earlier version and a revised version by the same composer Pulcinella and Petrushka are the Italian and Russian names of the same character.IanThal 23:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have verified that Pulcinella and Petrushka are the same character, as many sources say that, including Britannica. But that doesn't mean that the two ballets are the same. Unfortunately I have never heard Pulcinella, so I can't be sure. We need the help of someone who has heard both (if you're correct: versions)

However, all the information I have encountered suggest that the ballets are two different ones. In all the listings (I've seen) of Stravinsky's work, both are listed. Besides being written at two different times, with differnt premieres, different people are listed as choreographers, the music of Pulcinella seems to be attributed to Pergolesi or some other contemporary of his, and finally Pulcinella is listed as neoclassical, which Petrushka is not.

If the two ballets are in fact different, then it would be interesting to know why Stravinsky chose to compose two ballets with essentially the same character as a hero, whether he knew it was the same character, and whether the plots of the two ballets are connected in some way.

--Atavi 10:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The two stories appear to be completely unrelated.--Atavi 13:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard and lectured on both. The two ballets are completely unrelated musically. Petrushka was a major ballet of Stravinsky's so-called Russian period while Pulcinella was one of the most important early pieces leading to neoclassicism. The Grove article on Stravinsky discusses both without making any suggestion that the topics are the same. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 14:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Myke. Your help is greatly appreciated.--Atavi 14:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for freeing me of my confusion, Myke. I'm a commedia dell'arte performer who was merely trying to track the family history of one of my favorite characters.IanThal 01:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, and Thank you for contributing to these articles. I wish I knew more about commedia dell'arte, and it's always one of my most embarrassing moments in lecturing about the music of these pieces, when I need to go into some depth about the stories ("um, so like there's this puppet, and a carnival, and um sometimes a bear, and sometimes some puppet violence, and, um, yeah, there's some dancing and...SO! let's get back to the polytonal section in C and F# major in the Second Part!") -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 01:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Info

About the orchestration of the suite would be needed as well, dont you think? Cheers! 130.206.68.4 (talk) 15:05, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sung ballet?

Is it unusual for a ballet to have a libretto? I am sure that the dancers are not singing, but most ballets don't seem to incorporate singing. Kortoso (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As the article libretto explains, in ballet the term is used for the story. As the article Pulcinella points out, this ballet includes 3 singers, and the words they sing can of course also be described as "libretto". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 22:49, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Stravinsky described it as a ballet avec chant, though the enWP article is very coy about the presence of sung parts, mentioning them only in the instrumentation. Scarabocchio (talk) 14:23, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

May have been written by....

"some of the music may have been written by Domenico Gallo, Unico Wilhelm van Wassenaer, Carlo Ignazio Monza, and possibly Alessandro Parisotti."

Can this be clarified? The opening is from a Trio Sonata in G Major attributed to Gallo (see http://imslp.org/wiki/12_Trio_Sonatas_(Gallo%2C_Domenico) ).

CharlesDraper (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:53, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What needs to be clarified? At the time, the Diaghilev and Stravinsky thought the musical material they selected was by Pergolesi; some of it has since been found to be by others. The Gallo attribution seems well supported in the literature, so the "may be" overleaf could be rephrased, with appropriate citations. The same can be done for the others, if supported by reputable sources. The current "may be" phrasing is also used by Eric Walter White in his Stravinsky: The Composer and His Works (1966), which is possibly where this article gets it from. I don't know what Albert Dunning wrote. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:00, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The sources of the Stravinsky material could be clarified.. What I had anticipated finding was a list like this one:

 1   Ouverture: Allegro moderato (Gallo: Trio Sonata I, 1st movement)
 2   Serenata: Larghetto (Pergolesi: Il Flaminio. Act I. Polidoro)
 3   Scherzino (Gallo: Trio Sonata II, 1st movement)
 4   Allegro (Gallo: Trio Sonata II, 3rd movement)
 5   Andantino (Gallo: Trio Sonata VIII, 1st movement)
 6   Allegro (Pergolesi: Lo frate 'nnammorato. Act I. Vanella)
 7   Ancora poco meno (Pergolesi: Cantata: Luce degli occhi miei)
 8   Allegro Assai (Gallo: Trio Sonata III, 3rd movement)
 9   Allegro (Pergolesi: Il Flaminio. Act I. Bastiano)
10   Largo (Pergolesi: Lo frate 'nnammorato. Act III. Nina, Ascanio, Van)
11   (Allegro) (Pergolesi: Lo frate 'nnammorato. Act II.)
12   Presto (Pergolesi: Lo frate 'nnammorato. Act II.)
13   (Largo) (Pergolesi: Lo frate 'nnammorato. Act II.)
14   Allegro alla breve (Gallo: Trio Sonata VII, 3rd movement)
15   Tarantella: Allegro moderato (Wassenaer: Concerto II, Chelleri: Conino VI)
16   Andantino (Parisotti: Canzona)
17   Allegro (Monza: Harpsichord Suite No. 1)
18   Gavotta: Allegro moderato (Monza: Harpsichord Suite No. 3)
19   Vivo (Pergolesi: Sinfonia for Cello and Basso)
20   Tempo di minue (Pergolesi: Lo frate 'nnammorato. Act I. Don Pietro)
21   Allegro assai (Gallo: Trio Sonata XII, 3rd movement)

I found this on the archived webpage: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Af5fWAe0I7QJ:www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6575.0.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

A "reputable" source is at: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=viRpJ4cgJckC&pg=PA65&dq=monza+gallo+pergolesi+pulcinella&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcxtea0afZAhUpIMAKHdf0BKUQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=monza%20gallo%20pergolesi%20pulcinella&f=false

CharlesDraper (talk) 09:46, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Carr's book is definitely a reputable source, so adding any information to the article based on it is a valuable improvement. The naming and numbering of sections above conflicts with what's in the article, so consulting the score may be needed, too. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:20, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]