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Political, Social, Controversial Nature of Reggeton is Adequately Discussed?

Is the social criticism (Political, Social, Controversial) nature of Raggeton adequately discussed in this Wiki entry?

For example, has it addressed the double edged-sword that some consider this song (from other Encyclopedic entries)?

To criticize or comment please listen to and see musical video below:

Why I just added the NPOV template

I'm the original writer of the longer article, which in turn included sparing parts of the previous stub article and information gleaned mostly from various web pages. I've got no personal connection to the Reggaeton community besides being a distant, non-spanish-speaking fan of its output, so I'm happy to see the article being expanded to the extent that it has been by dedicated fans.

However, as I've watched this article grow, the meaning has changed rather dramatically in a number of areas. As an outsider I don't believe myself qualified to adjudicate the disputes presented within, and I've instead added the NPOV template. You're welcome to remove it if you feel you're able to settle all the possible disputes.

I will, however, list the major things that have changed since I first started the article off. I've left out the ones on spelling (Latino America? Why?) and the ones that constructively added to the article.

  • The major problem appears to be the dispute between Puerto Ricans and Panamaians concerning the origin of the music. My original formulation "originating in Puerto Rico and Panama" has, in turn, had both countries removed. It currently reads only "Panama" which seems dubious to say the least.
  • All references to hip-hop have been removed from the opening two sections. What, exactly, is a "pop" influence and how does it differ from the influences on Jamaican music at the time?
  • While I greatly appreciate the expanded "Distinguishing Features" section, the assertion that Reggaeton's drum machine track is derived from early dancehall is just plain wrong. It was a good decade into dancehall's existence that the afro-carribbean 3+3+2 rhythm was first used, replacing one-drop, which had reigned for the previous 30 years. At no point in ragga history was the drum track that pronounced. Also, the formulation was an attempt to describe what distinguished reggaeton from dancehall, not what brought them together. (What was removed was essentially a reference to older Puerto Rican styles. Some kind of discussion on the latino roots of Reggaeton would be sucjit to have been created in a cultural vacuum. Which it might well have been, I don't know.)
  • The "Reggaeton Today" section needs serious restructuring - my formulation about the international hits belongs together at the end with the N.O.R.E. hit. Certainly, it should not start off the paragraph. Someone please rewrite.
  • All Panamaians have been removed from the "Well-known artists" list in a previous edit. Please rectify. Also, Héctor y Tito appear twice. :) And is N.O.R.E. really a reggaeton artist?

Birdseed 11:54, 2005 Mar 4 (UTC)

Birdseed and esekaese - I'm trying to change the article with your suggestions as well as my own thoughts in mind. Let me know what you think.

Wathiik 08:08, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am Mexican from many generations. I am an American citizen. I have been a working musician for more than thirty years. In the last few years I have worked with some of the best new young producers in the Los Angeles recording/music scene. I stay fairly current with all music styles... it is a big job to do this, but I love new music. I am telling you this so you will know that I am an experienced musician/composer. This is what I want to say... Reggaeton is not "Hispanic" music per se, it is black-Latin music... or more correctly Afro-Latin music. Other than speaking a form of Spanish, we (Mexicans) have as much in common with Afro-Latins as Anglo-Europeans have with Blacks, though we are all sisters and brothers in the eyes of God.

I believe, with all my heart, that this distinction should be made to preserve the dignity of Mexican musical art. I an NOT saying Mexican people do not listen to Reggaeton, this would be far from the truth, or that there isn't a growing Mexican flavored style of Reggaeton. What I am saying is that I would like the world to understand that Reggaeton does not represent the musical history of Mexico or Mexican people. I am simply noting the cultural and geographic differences in that Mexico is not Afro influenced in the way other Latin countries, especially Caribbean Latin countries where the African, by way of morphing from Afro to Caribbean, to Latin, influence is a large part of the "beat" of the music... which, I believe, made the Afro-Latin Reggaeton a natural extension of American Rap.

One reason I believe Reggaeton has become so instantly popular (besides the alluring beats) is that the Afro-Latin population in certain areas of the United States now has a "commercial" or "radio" identity. The Afro-Latins have for too long been bunched together with Mexicans. This is not fair... Afro-Latins, though Spanish speakers, have a long and beautiful history of their own, but this has rarely been recognized... but this is now changing. I'm glad because as a Mexican I know what it has been like to be "invisible" in the "culture" of the general American population. Thank Dog more and more cultures are being recognized. Let us all hope that we represent our cultures in a way that God would approve of. To the man who says that: "we (Mexicans) have as much in common with Afro-Latins as Anglo-Europeans have with Blacks, though we are all sisters and brothers in the eyes of God" you're racist dude and let me correct something there is black blood running through Mexico, unfortunately you were taught not to celebrate it, exactly the same way that Mexico does not celebrates other ethnicities within Mexico. What makes you think that since you have supposedly black in your blood you are better that those who has it? And to tell you a little more Anglo-Europeans have as much in common with Mexicans too who are a mix of Spaniards and Aztecs or Mayans. And in case you forgot Spaniards are a mix of many cultures as well, including Black Arabs. My suggestion would be that you revisit your history you might find black in your family too: The Negro Race in Mexico Joaquin Roncal The Hispanic American Historical Review, Vol. 24, No. 3 (Aug., 1944), pp. 530-540" doi:10.2307/2508528

Neutrality regarding controversy section?

The neutrality in the Controversy section of the article is debateable. Living in Puerto Rico, I can assert that not all lyrics or music is an example to follow. Many times have the artists, rappers or whatever you may want to call them, said that their music and/or lyrics represent either: an example, or what they think is right or wrong and are an ACT, a SHOW that people like, just like a movie. Many times "perreo" has been called obscene, and just as many times compared to older dance movements that, in their time, caused just as much a stir. The deaths the section mentions in clubs and pubs have nothing to do with the music or the dance, they are many times revenge on drug-related murders. It's true that David Sanchez (Tempo) is serving a 24-year sentence on heroin trafficking, but even though he is in prison, many consider him to be the king of puertorrican rap. Many people think the justice system in the island wants to set an example out of him, the judge of the case was quoted as saying: "Being an artist, you should set an example to our kids very different that what you are showing", on my part I think the remark coming from the judge was inappropiate and biased. People here in the island may remember othe rappers such as Don Omar, who was arrested while supposedly smoking marijuana and with a gun with a mutilated serial number, when it was proved he waas not smoking, but the other people traveling in the vehicle were, these people were not tried. The exact same scenario happened to Julio Voltio, and no cause was found for trial. A more recent case, in which the singer Berto, from the group Trebol Clan, was arrested for driving drunk and One Pound of marijuana was found inside the SUV he was driving, again no cause was found. So, the point I'm trying to demonstrate is the same as actors and characters, rappers/singers have the image the project to people, the public face, and have a person face too, meaning that just because a song says he shoots 10 people with an AK47, he really does it, which I'm sure that this is the case many times, very similar to a movie.

Sorry for the long rant but I felt that the whole story should be considered, not just one point of view. Miguelfp1 05:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

it is not a representation of latin america, itis more poular in the u.s than in latin america. there are huge movements to keep it out of countries like colombia. these movements are supported by lovers of true hip hop like J Kapo. The only people in latin america who buy it are 20 yr old girls, and even they admit that the lyrics are garbage. It lacks in originality,but most americans would not understand this because of the language barrier.There are certain names of groups that are almost exact translations of american hip hop artists(such as"rompiendo el silencio"="Disturbin tha peace").They also do not credit the artists that they steel from. Hector Lavoe, a famous salsa singer, recorded a song called "Juanito Alimana" which was then taken by Don Omar who changed a few of the words and passed it off as original. Traditional music such as salsa, merengue, bachata, cumbia and others represent us much better. It is strictly a puerto Rican thing. If you want rap in spanish you should look into rap from countries such as chile, colombia,peru and mexico. dont be fooled by these reggaeton "artists"

Criticisms???

Should it be a section of criticisms of the music genre? Like political connections. The PNP had use the reggaeton to get the young vote more that the other political parties. Also let be honest even though is a Puerto Rican genre, not a lot people like it.

Feel free to add and see what people think. It might even be better to put it in the Puerto Rico section at the bottom rather than in a criticim section at the moment. Also you should really sign your name after a post in discussions pages with 4 of the ~ characters. The above post seems to have gone through a few edits without being signed. - Master Of Ninja 19:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree, there should be a section on criticisms, it has been hit pretty hard for its lyrics and the repetitive use of the dem bow. CraigP 02:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Wording

There are some problems with the wording in the article which I'd rather discuss here than just go ahead and edit myself:

  • as become popular with Latin America in youth during the late 1990s and has spread to North American and European audiences

Since one of the biggest countries in Latin America is in North America, this just isn't right. Mexico may not play a key role in Reggaeton but I haven't heard many other types of music in the 2 months I've been in Mexico. The current wording plays up to the ignorant notion that Mexico is in either Central America or South America.

  • Reggaeton - also spelled Reggaetón and hispanicised as Reguetón

Since Reggaeton originated in hispanic nations the word has never been hispanicised. The Spanish word Reguetón has rather been anglicised as Reggaetón or Reggaeton.

— Hippietrail 15:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The second point seems somewhat doubtful. "Reggae", obviously the origin of the word "Reggaeton", tends to be uniformly spelt across the world since it has that indelible "foreign" flavour to non-jamaicans. I'm confident this is the same in spanish - do a google search, spanish only, for reggae and regue if you don't believe me (1.5 milion to 17 000, the front page of which are clearly not about music).
Now if Reggaetón was the original spelling I don't know, but Reguetón is definately a later construct. Birdseed 11:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Spanish has a language academy which regulates its spelling. Interstingly, it only includes "reggae" which is unusual in that Spanish usually eliminates double letters in borrowings. "Reggaeton" is too new to yet be in the RAE dictionary. The suffix "-ón" in Spanish is an augmentative and is always spelled with the accent in that language. So let me correct my correction thus:

The Spanish word Reggaetón (or Reguetón) has been anglicised as Reggaeton. — Hippietrail 02:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't Reguetón still be a hispanification though? Birdseed 16:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I think you could say the spelling "Reguetón" is hispanicized. Which is subtly different because it focuses on the spelling rather than the word. Calling a Spanish word a hispanification would be either wrong or misleading. a) "reggae" was an English word, b) "reggae" became a Spanish word, retaining its foreign spelling, c) "reggaetón" became a new Spanish word, d) "reggaetón" became an English word with the anclicised spelling "reggaeton", e) "reguetón" appeared as a spelling variant of an already-Spanish word which adhered to the rules of Spanish orthography unlike its original spelling.
Chronologically, d) and e) could have ocurred in the opposite order or simultaneously. But anyway this all seems way to much to put in the article. There is one English spelling and two Spanish spellings, both of which may sometimes be seen in English to varying degrees. — Hippietrail 18:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Spain may have its language academy, but that doesn't hold much weight in the Caribbean. (Daddy Yankee, Mas Flow, Luny Tunes aren't exactly proper Spanish either). It could even be that regueton is a spelling fed back from Spain. -- Beardo 04:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


hello everyone.ME LLAMO JOSE please read this article with an open mind and understand that this is just my opinion. however, before drawing a conclusion to what i said look out there into the world ask questions and even do reasearch before accepting what is true and what is not. first, i love music very much, what i don't like is the way how black culture is being disrespected. Reggaeton is Not from puerto Rico. during the construction of the panama canal jamicans went seeking work. it was a huge project and people from other neighboring countires also participated. Jamicans brought their culture to panama their music, food, dance and so on. Panamanians embraced this new genre and spanish reggea was born. thanks to people like el general and other artists who held dow spanish reggea for so long. it's just like salsa, it did not start in PR .instead it did in CUBA, YES CUBA. why do you thisk the queen of salsa IS " celia cruz " OH , and by the way she is not from PR she is Cubana. it's just like hispanic men in the us rapping. it is not their genre of music it is just done by them that's all. reggaeton is done by artist who speak spanish, it does not mean that it originated from PR. WHY ARE PEOPLE LYING ABOUT THE TRUTH. I am from the Dominican Republic and i read a lot about cultures, religion, and other historic events and believe me when i tell you this REGGAETON IS REGGEA WHICH CAME FROM JAMICA TO PANAMA THEN PUERTO RICO. IT IS BLACK MUSIC AND BLACK CULTURE.

Origins of the name reggaeton

  • Hi - i just wanted to log this (currently unverifiable) bit of research on the origins of the word reggaeton, which might help with the above discussion on hispanisation. This link seems to suggest that the word it from reggae itself, and was used by first used by DJ Blass in mixtapes. DJ Nelson first used the name in a commercial album. So it suggests that DJ Blass should be given credit for this. However I can find no other research which indicates this unless we have a verifiable source for the mixtapes and albums. I suspect if they exist that they will be in spanish so might need someone quite proficient in the langugage to look all this up. - Master Of Ninja 00:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


For whatever reason, a few wiki users who seem to neither speak Spanish or listen to reggaeton continue to vandalize this page. Numerous wikipedia articles on music genres and subgenres link to sites with little more than photos (not to mention the countless wiki dedicated to people that only link to galleries). The fact that wiki contain photos means the images have encyopledia value. The link is to a nonprofit site with reggaeton images and reggaeton articles and interviews. I remove links to sites that are just selling something (CDs), removing this link is page vandalism, and repeat violators will be reported. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.159.20.189 (talk • contribs) 00:18, 8 January 2006

  • The link you keep adding is spam, whether the site is commercial or not. It adds absolutely no encyclopedic value to the article. --Ezeu 02:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Ezeu, kindly explain the distinction between the encyclopedic value of a photo inserted into a wiki about music (example: photos in Salsa Music: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsa_music ) and a link to photos directly relating to people mentioned in a wiki (three instrumental people mentioned in the Reggaeton wiki are pictured in the linked gallery). Both cases involve photos of artists mentioned, they are both relevant, they both contribute to the encyclopedic value of an article, the difference is that a link is less intrusive than inserting multiple photos into an article because it gives the reader a choice of whether or not they would like to see photos of the artists mentioned (and visit the news page to read updated news on those same artists).
If you want to include the photos, include them directly in the article. We aren't "vandalizing." Perhaps we'd take you more seriously if you used a user account, instead of an ip address. Because with ip addresses, its possible that you're switching. Please read Wikipedia:External links. Thanks, --Urthogie 12:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, note that Salsa music doesn't have any external links to spam.--Urthogie 12:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
  • You are entirely missing the point, Ezeu's argument is that photos do not have an encyclopedic value, when countless music wikis contain photos. Its a total contradiction. As long as music wikis contain photos, and those photos are relevant to the article, there are going to be links to photo galleries (just like Andy Warhol's wiki has links to galleries). I won't include photos in the article because they are watermarked with a site URL, its tacky and intrusive. A link gives people a choice and its not "in your face".
Well apparently you don't know Wikipedia's rules. If any wikipedia page does have such galleries, I intend on removing them as they are SPAM. Check two you is an actual user, you are an anonymous spammer who has made no real significant edits. I find it funny that everyone reverting me and check are anon ip's. Please stop, your site will not be advertised here, as you can see in Wikipedia:External Links. Also, im gonna try and get this page protected from anonymous users.--Urthogie 21:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Urthogie, you have been reported for multiple vandalisms of this page. Your derogatory comments about Latinos will also be investigated.
I haven't made any derogatory comments. Please stop causing problems on this page. You're breaking wikipedia policy, and I'm going to try and get an sprotect.--Urthogie 09:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

A link to Reggaeton Charts would a very good addition!

reggaeton

this is a form of reggaeton

Reggaetón is the bastard child of real reggae. It is kept locked in Bob Marley's basement, where he routinely flogs it with his dreadlocks. Tony Myers 22:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

reggaeton worldwide

That entire last article is not accurate and devoid of citations.

Sensei (Keith Kanashiro) is an obscure Japanese Toronto producer, nowhere on the web or in any magazine has it ever been suggested that he introduced reggaeton to T-Dot. Reggaeton has been around since about 1995, people in Japan were exposed to reggaeton well prior to a 2003 article in Latina, Vibe has been covering urban Japanese affinity with Hip Hop and its subgenres since the 90's.

To suggest that no Japanese groups performed over reggaeton production until 2005 is laughable. The reference to Los Kalibres is kind of reaching, its a group of Peruan kids that mixed Japanese and Spanish and coined the term Japanol, you would have to reference every single country that mixed their native language with Spanish in performing reggaeton if you include them. And they didn't seem to get much fanfare in Latin American countries when all the feedback comments about them are negative (scroll down and see comments):

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/47227/0/reggeton/peruano/japon/

And Gasolina is still a hit in a lot of places worldwide.

Fair enough. I tagged the last section with citationneeded tags as the whole section sprang up at some point in time, but there was no references. I was actually wondering what Japanol was - now I know. The section is still there in the history if anyone gets round to referencing it, and wants to counterpoint - Master Of Ninja 18:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The Japanol thing definitely had to go, its not like "Spanglish" which has been a term used for decades and commonly accepted, its something a couple of guys made up. It seemed all very Japanese-leaning, down to the notion that a Japanese DJ brought reggaeton music to Toronto (any person of any nationality can introduce that music to an area, but it just seemed like someoneone was pushing to show Japanese people bolstered the reggaeton movement in Canada when they didn't). I'm more than happy to hear counterpoints from someone with links to supporting articles, though.

reggaeton in America

You can't credit NY as the sole birthplace of reggaeton in popularity because it had a major foothold in places like Miami (simply because of its proximity to Puerto Rico and people traveling back and forth with the music easier). Also, its not that its characterized as "east coast" , its generally considered "caribbean". The fact that most people from Cuba, PR and DR are more concentrated along the East Coast rather than the west coast just means there's more interest in those areas. Chicano Rap is considered West Coast because of its focus, Reggaeton is popular across the U.S., its just the biggest artists are along the East coast (but the sound is still caribbean, not coastal). The subject matter and production isn't that coastal.

reggaeton origins

Some people don't want to concede that Puerto Rico wasn't the birthplace of reggaeton, but anyone familiar with the music of El General or who ever listened to "Te Ves Buena" realizes that the music originated in Panama. Just as Salsa originated in Cuba but evolved and was made popular in PR, reggaeton took off in Puerto Rico. Someone changed the article wording to suggest that it could be from Puerto Rico when the consensus has been that its roots are in Panama.

Check the citations, major media sources credit Panama.

As far as the other countries, reggaeton is not born in Cuba, part of what describes reggaeton music is discussion on society's problems, sexuality, and crime, and that's exactly why the Cuban government bans a great deal of reggaeton music on the island. Its played there, but it didn't originate from there. For those that say its from the Dominican Republic, cite sources, because its news to me if it came from there. The Colombian references are possible (see the first discussions on the subject below), but at best it would mean that Panama used a few elements of Colombian music. Sources would be a plus, as I've never once heard someone credit Colombia as being the birthplace of reggaeton.

We need to come to a consensus of this. Recently people have been adding their favourite country into various parts of the article with respect to reggaeton, with other deleting things and what not. For a long time before the consensus was that while the basis of reggaeton was panamanian, the actual style of reggaeton was from Puerto Rico. While the older article was quite clear, recent changes have made the text flow less well. We should get to a new consensus which should be located here, and not modified, as well as referenced properly. Would it be also possible to sign their comments on the discussion page with four tildes to log the name, date and time? Comments please. - Master Of Ninja 20:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Dem Bow and El General

We need to get this straight - who actually influenced reggaeton more, El General or Shabba Ranks? I actually think that El General's songs are somewhat closer to modern reggaeton because many other of Shabba Ranks' songs beside "Dem Bow" have really different beats from reggaeton.

Another note: El General produced a song called "Son Bow", which is the 12th track in his CD "Hit". See here The song is nearly identical to Shabba Ranks' "Dem Bow." See here, 7th track Who actually came up with this song first, and did Shabba Ranks actually have any influence on reggaeton ("Dem Bow" doesn't seem to be an original beat)? — Stevey7788 (talk) 23:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Who actually released their songs first? Besides, in interviews that I've heard and read Shabba Ranks and 'Dem Bow' are heavily referenced as influences. The actually mention that reggaeton was called 'dembow' at one point in time - Master Of Ninja 05:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Shabba Ranks came out with Dem Bow in 1990. El General came out with Son Bow a year later in 1991, I got the El General album when it came out (el General basically recycled the song). Puerto Rican reggaeton wasn't lifted from Jamaica directly, so you can't credit Shabba for reggaeton by having a drum pattern to sample no more than you can credit Hendrix for directly contributing to gangster rap just because Ice-T rapped over rock riffs. Bottom line, Shabba had one BEAT (and I can't say for certain that Shabba wasn't using a beat other Jamaicans were) that El General ran with, but a good number of El General's tracks don't use production completely in Shabba's production style. El General created a new sound in Spanish, its that sound (and U.S. rap music) that directly influenced Puerto Rican "underground" music, years would pass before they even called it reggaeton. So as far as influences, El General is generally considered the forefather to reggaeton, Jamaican dancehall artists in general (not Shabba specifically) helped inspire Spanish reggae. Did Shabba have a hand in reggaeton? Indirectly, because of a single beat, yes. But remove El General from the equation, and reggaeton would definitely not exist. Besides El General, in the late Eighties and Early Nineties, there where also dozens of other Panamanian Reggae Street Stars, such as Nando Boom, Los Killaz, Jam and Suppose and others from Puerto Rico such as Vico C. I remember when each CD came out and when the first reggaeton CDs started coming out of Puerto Rico.


User: RayLover I love reggaeton!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What About the White People?

Do we have any information concerning how most Americans feel about Reggaeton? For example, the white reaction to the music, or the differences in reaction between white adults and white youths, would be nice. There does not seem to be a whole lot in here about that. History21 06:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)History21

Why don't u add it?

What might be interesting is seeing how the 'bubbling' style of music we have in Surinam, Aruba, and in the Netherlands relates to Reggaeton. When I first heard reggaeton it reminded me of the bubbling music style. Good examples to look for might be Don & Johnson's Bring That Beat Back (bubbling remix), Beenie Man's Dance Hall Queen (bubbling remix), Brainpower's Dansplaat (bubbling remix), Jennifer Lopez' Love Don't Cost a Thing (bubbling remix), and for non-remix work: K-liber's Viben or Doe Het (ft. Def Rhymz), Def Rhymz' Shudden or Ik ben niet te stoppe for comparison. There must have been some cross-polination at one point. --asmodai 08:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that Bubbling Beat stuff is very interesting! It's kinda similar to DJ Laz and other latin-oriented bass performers circa 1992 and the beats sound a bit like Merengue but aren't (and also seem really free, which is a good thing). I'd really appreciate an article by someone who knows about the history of the genre. Birdseed 15:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

block the uploads to only qualified member or something to avoid irrelevant or off the subject post...

the last one i saw, clamied "el regeton apesta" "the reggateon sucks"

Inaccuracies

To the person who recently changed this article, see Talk:Music of Panama.

1) The whole part about homophobia is a bald-faced lie.

2) Vico C didn't do the first spanish-language hip-hop record, in any case the first in Puerto Rico. He did the first comercially available one in Puerto Rico in 1988, not 1985, but it is true he recorded underground tapes in 1985 and later on.

What Puerto Ricans bring to reggaeton did bring into the mix was house music (itself a fusion of salsoul and disco) and straigth up hip-hop.

BTW, I am boricua, and I grew up in Old San Juan.

-esekaese

In the spanish version of Wikipedia we accept that Reggaetón is from Puerto Rico and Panama. Moreover, user from Panama comment in the discussion´s page: "El reggaeton no es originario de Panamá, es exclusivo de Puerto Rico; aunque aca en Panamá se escucha. No confundir reggaeton con reggae, género que Panamá ha cultivado en los ultimos años(Taichi)"
I think that if this article should include the two version of the histoy to be just.-- Abeyno
Well the article was changed to try and give equal weight to Panama and Puerto Rico, with the opening line "beginnings in Panama", as well as a heavy emphasis in Puerto Rico in the rest of the article. The references after the first sentence all point to the fact that there are Panamanian origins (to whatever extent). I do suggest that maybe more emphasis be given to Puerto Rico, especially the difference between Reggae and Reggaeton, but the problem has been people coming in and changing the text to say Puerto Rico (on its own) leading to reverts which completely disrupt attempts to make the article better. The article as it is is good but can be improved. - Master Of Ninja 17:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


El Reggaetón

We should use the Spanish spelling of “reggaetón” since the English language is borrowing it. Although the first part of the word is of English influence, the word is of Spanish origin, including its extension. Here is a list of notable sources that use the correct spelling. To be just I've included both English and Spanish organisations.

• AOL Latino [1]
• Atlantic Records [2]
• Billboard [3]
• Houston Chronicle, The [4]
• La Prensa Gráfica [5]
• MSN Latino [6]
• MTV [7]
• New York Times, The [8][9]
• New Yorker, The [10]
• People en Español [[11]
• Telemundo [12]
• Univision [13]

I’d also like to explain why the word “reggaetón” requires an acute diacritic. Because the word is of Spanish origin with English influence it is important to retain both elements. According to Spanish grammar, accent marks are limited to the last three syllables of a word. In this situation the biggest intonation ends in the last syllable, and in Spanish if the last syllable is stressed it is called acute. Follow me so far? Good. To test whether or not the word requires an accent mark is simple, if the acute word ends with the letter N simply look for the letter before the n. If that letter is a vowel then it needs an accent, but if the letter is a consonant an accent mark is not allowed. In this case the word “reggaetón” requires an acute diacritic to maintain its Spanish orthography and correct pronunciation.

Sources: Grámatica de la Lengua Española by Emilio Alarcos Llorach and Dónde va la tilde by Fernando Ávila. --flamma 03:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

If you don't speak Spanish and do not know the history of reggaeton, you shouldn't be making these kinds of edits (99% of your edits on here seem to deal with your obsession with grammar). There is a reason why the accent marks haven't been added to this article in years, its because the word reggaeton didn't use an accent mark when it was coined (I had purchased the first albums and mixtapes that actually started using the word, you clearly haven't). Some media sources add the accent, this is not how it was originally used and they are putting their own incorrect twist on it. The bottom line is that the companies that are actually INVOLVED with reggaeton (Machete Music, Sony BMG, White Lion, Gold Star, Mas Flow, Jiggiri Records) don't use an accent mark in their promotions, on their CDs when the word is present, or in press releases. The last four named are BASED in Puerto Rico, if they aren't doing it, why would other countries. Its the reason why the Reggaaeton Ninos series has the mark over the N but (surprise) no accent over the O. Kazzanova is the biggest Reggaeton DJ on the radio, and (surprise) no accent on the mixed CDs he puts out. Same thing with Mas Flow greatest hits, Gold Star greatest hits. In fact, I doubt you can find a single CD on amazon.com that has the word reggaeton with an accent (go look up reggaetón and reggaeton both), and if there is, its a rarity. Did I mention that every single major reggaeton site on the entire web (sites dedicated to that genre) do NOT use the accent? Are the experts wrong? So again, if you don't know anything about reggaeton music, you need to leave this page completely alone and stick to articles you know something about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.155.122.159 (talk) 23:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
I don't speak Spanish? I guess I happened to read la Gramática de la lengua Española without knowing a lick of it. As for the history, I do know it, but that’s irrelevant. The spelling without the accent was not originally used? I guess somebody just threw it up and it caught on from there huh? Either way I'm not here to follow the misspellings of the record companies or the artist that use them (which they do use the accent.) I'm here to fix the spelling according to how it is found in the Spanish dictionary. Who are you exactly calling “experts”? I really hope you're not referring to the mixtape artists’. The only experts I know of are the Spanish Academies that regulate the orthography of the language. You should really not write with such hostility and ignorance, especially when I've done nothing to offend you until now, and you honestly deserve it. According to the Academia Puertorriqueña which is a department of the Real Academia Española, they're using “reguetón”. Like I said earlier it does not matter how many times you've seen “reggaeton”, in the end it is the language regulators and the rules that dictate how a word is spelled, not public misspellings. If you're going to use “reggaeton” do not insult the Spanish language by breaking the rules. The word is Spanish, not English, and it is the public’s responsibility to abide by their rules. “Reggaeton” is an impossible spelling because it defies regulations; “Reggaetón” is formal and educated. And now it seems that both will be gone and replaced by “el reguetón”. Read this article and educate yourself, you really could use some help from it El Reguetón Don't forget to sign your name next time, you come off as stupid if you talk the talk but decide to remain anonymous. --flamma 02:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Guys, take a chill pill... Sfacets 03:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
*Swallows pill* Hey, got an opinion on this? It might help. --flamma 14:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Erroneous Use of Accent in Title

User flamma continues to vandalize the reggaeton page by attempting to add an accent mark to its title. The following are facts which cannot be disputed: 1. Reggaeton is not a spanish word, it is primarily composed of the non-Spanish term Reggae and thus is not subject to Spanish grammar and spelling rules. This fact alone is evidence enough that the page title should not include an accent. 2. flamma argues that according to Spanish, the O requires an accent, yet leaves out the fact that no reggaeton artist in the world adheres to a Spanish pronounciation of the "reggae" part of the word. Its prounced exactly as it would be in English. If the accent was used, technically everyone would be pronouncing it "ray-gah-ay". There is not a single reggaeton artist in the world that pronounces it this way. This further proves the word is not Spanish and not subject to an accent, as it is not pronounced "according to the rules" as he suggests. 3. The reggaeton wikipedia article's title has never been changed in years, despite thousands of page edits. Out of thousands of editors, only one seems convinced the title is wrong, and he made the change with absolutely no consensus. Thousands of editors, and not one of them seem to share his opinion. 4. Do a search for the word Reggaeton (with and without an accent) on CDuniverse.com or Amazon.com or any music website in the world. Not even 1% (if that) of any reggaeton CD ever recorded has the word with an accent (even though they adhere to other rules of Spanish spelling and grammar). 5. Every reggaeton record label in the world does not use an accent over the "o" in promotion or on their CDs. 6. The only sources that use an accent are media that erroneously add the accent because they assume its a Spanish word when it isn't. The first point should pretty much be the nail in the coffin on this discussion, the other points just prove that one guy with a grammar obsession should not have his opinion taken over every Reggaeton artist in the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.0.105.107 (talk) 01:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

I really would wish that you’d stop hiding behind a series of numbers, but thank you for finally trying to debate me instead of changing the page back without referring to the discussion. I'd also wish you’d stop referring to my changes as “vandalism” seing as how I'm fixing a spelling error, not destroying the page. Let’s begin:
• § 1 | Reggaetón/ Reguetón is a Spanish word, but it has English influence. The word originated in Puerto Rico and Panamá and as of 2006 la Academia Puertorriqueña de la Lengua Española is claiming the word as theirs [14]. The Puerto Rican language academy is part of la Real Academia Española which governs the entire Spanish language. In English we do not have a language academy, but in Spanish all words must go through a revision of correct spelling that includes accents. The word was born in the Spanish language, not English.
• § 2 | Anonymous user 65.0.105.107 says that if the word “reggaetón” were Spanish and had an accent that it’s pronunciation would be completely different from how the reggaetón artist say it. In fact he says that it’s pronunciation in Spanish would sound like this: ray-gah-ay. Anonymous user 65.0.105.107 is in fact wrong. As a Spanish speaker I can clearly say that the word would be pronounced: re-geh-tón or spelled differently reggae-tón. But wait don’t both of those sound exactly the same? Yes. The user made the error of thinking that a Spanish speaker would say “raygah”, instead of saying it how they all do: reggae/ regeh. As for the extension –tón, the anonymous user believes that it would seize to sound like a T and more of an “ay”. Incorrect again, a Spanish speaker and the inventor of the hybrid word “reggaetón” say the word just fine with the accent. In fact the accent helps guide the Spanish reader/speaker to better pronounce the word, guiding them to leave the intonation on the last syllable.
• § 3 | You say that not even 1% of reggaetón CDs use the accents? If you’re referring to those booty shaking “Reggaeton Party Hits” discs, I’m not surprised. Those corporations that birth those cheap CDs don’t look like they can spell. Remember now that most artists do not place their genre on the title of their albums. Here’s your 1% [[http://www.amazon.com/Salsa-con-Reggaet%C3%B3n-Andy-Monta%C3%B1ez/dp/B000F7CE66/sr=8-7/qid=1169614256/ref=sr_1_7/102-4103838-3602541?ie=UTF8&s=music Amazon.com, Andy Montañez | Salsa con Reggaetón, featuring Daddy Yankee]]
• § 4 | Are you actually saying that organizations, stations, and publications like The New York Times, The New Yorker, Telemundo, Univision, People en Español, AOL Latino, MSN Latino, MTV, Billboard, and Atlantic records all incorrectly spelled reggaetón because they were dumb for thinking that this musical genre’s name is Spanish? (Refer to § 1 for the origin and ownership of the word) You cannot possibly compare The New York Time’s spelling of “reggaetón” as inferior to CDs who spell it “reggaeton” on their compilation hits. That’s insane.
• § 5 | The word is Spanish, and unless you can prove otherwise it must adhere to a Spanish spelling that fits their regulations. Again visit this link and read about the word: Reggaetón in the dictionary That is unless you cannot read Spanish, in which case I summed up the origin and ownership of the word already. Please enlighten me more.--flamma 05:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This is too easy. User flamma does not speak Spanish, if he did, he would have noticed that the article he tried to quote is proposing acceptance of the word spelled as Reguetón, and not Reggaetón. So he either can't read the article, or is blatantly lying about what the Academy actually decided on. Your reasoning for adding an accent mark to a hybrid word Reggaeton is not supported by the article at all. So there goes point number one. 2. Not only do you not speak Spanish, you distorted what I wrote. If you are going to follow specific rules on use of marks for pronounciation, that means that the word must follow all Spanish pronounciation rules. Ask a real Spanish speaker (like myself) to say the following two words: caer and reggaeton. Now explain to me why both have ae, yet both are pronounced differently. Its because Reggaeton spelled exactly like that does not follow Spanish rules of pronounciation, and subsequently does not require use of accent marks. Point two has now been totally disproved. 3. You went to Amazon.com and CD Universe just like I asked, and out of HUNDREDS of reggaeton CDs online, you found only ONE, that used the accent (And it was a Salsa CD). You just proved that not even 1% of CDs use the accent mark. You further trip yourself up by claiming that the companies that put out reggaeton compilations "can't spell", yet interestingly enough, they use the accent marks and N marks that you're oddly obsessed with. [http://www.amazon.com/2007-%C3%89xitos-Reggaeton-Various-Artists/dp/B000JBWVRU/sr=1-9/qid=1169616946/ref=sr_1_9/102-3068766-1698502?ie=UTF8&s=music 2007 Año de Éxitos Reggaeton],[http://www.amazon.com/Reggaeton-Ninos-Vol-1/dp/B000BW8B9Y/sr=1-4/qid=1169616946/ref=sr_1_4/102-3068766-1698502?ie=UTF8&s=music Reggaeton Ninos, Vol. 1 (put out by EMI LATIN]. So the companies are 100% correct about accents to you, except when reggaeton is used. Fantastic. I like how you entirely dodged me bringing up the fact that every Reggaeton record label in the world does not use the accent mark. [http://www.amazon.com/Reggaeton-Hits-Luny-Tunes/dp/B000EMGKAS/sr=1-3/qid=1169617388/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-3068766-1698502?ie=UTF8&s=music Reggaeton Hits by Luny Tunes (Mas Flow Records)],[http://www.amazon.com/Hit-Man-Presents-Reggaeton-Latino/dp/B000BT00FA/sr=1-16/qid=1169617368/ref=sr_1_16/102-3068766-1698502?ie=UTF8&s=music Don Omar - Reggaeton Latino (Machete Music)],[http://www.amazon.com/Gold-Star-Music-Reggaeton-Hits/dp/B000C1YPOY/sr=1-26/qid=1169617038/ref=sr_1_26/102-3068766-1698502?ie=UTF8&s=music Gold Star Music Reggaeton Hits (Hector el Father's Gold Star Music)]. 4. You cite the same media the refers to Kevin Federline as a "gangster rapper". So by your logic, the media is completely infallible, and the people that created the genre and make reggaeton their entire living are wrong. And last but not least, the word Reguetón is to be used by the Academy, not the spelling that will continue to be used by every Reggaeton Music website on the web, not the spelling that will be used on every CD that will come out from now on. If anything, you can create a page for Reguetón and have it redirect to the correct version, Reggaeton. Checkmate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.0.105.107 (talk) 05:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
Are you ok? If you refer to my old post I said: “According to the Academia Puertorriqueña which is a department of the Real Academia Española, they're using ‘reguetón’. I never said they were going to use “reggaetón”. In fact I only said that the Academia was claiming the word as theirs. That point demonstrates that the word is Spanish, refer to § 1 again please and read carefully. If I said that the Puerto Rican Academy was claiming the word, I meant just that. I never said they were claiming spelling, though by owning the word they are entitled to spelling. While phonetically “reggaetón” does not look like it would sound correctly if read in Spanish, speakers of the language know to read it as “reguetón”. Give them credit. If English speakers can learn to pronounce the word “colonel” correctly, then surely the Hispanic community, the inventors of reggaetón, can say their own word properly. I hope you noticed though that the error “reggaeton” was not present in the article. Your empty rhetoric makes no sense. While Reggaetón may never be spelled correctly by compilation CDs, you can be sure that some sense of decency will be met on publications, and that’s really what is taken seriously, not CDs. Like I said earlier, you really should be taking notes, a CD will never compare to The New York Times or Spanish television stations like Univision. Get a grip. By the way I never distorted what you said, you’re just confusing yourself. As for K-Fed, you obviously missed The New York Times sarcastic tone when describing him as a “gangster rapper”, they tend to write for an intelligent audience. You’re wasting my time. Checkmate. --flamma 06:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh la la! The same discussion we have in the Spanish wiki with user Speakslowly, who uses, suspiciously, the same argument, same sources (People en Español, etc). I tell you, I'm spanish, we have the english title for the article, the RAE (Royal Spanish Academy) has NOT yet said anything about the word (but it looks like if anything is done, they are more likely to use the full-spanish 'reguetón' than the english-term-with-spanish-rules reggaetón). :oS --Damián del Valle 01:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Titillated are you? I think the RAE will choose both spellings. But like I’ve always said, the word is of Spanish origin with English influence. Because of this the word must go through the process of spell checking it through RAE’s orthographic guidelines (read their book, it’s fascinating). If a word needs an accent the RAE will place it, even on foreign words like pizzería and réflex. That is the wonder of having an academy, if only English had one, our speakers wouldn’t be so dumb. It’s also really shameful that the English wiki page has the word spelled correctly, but the Spanish doesn’t; they’ve failed to see their error. --flamma 20:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion and per our naming policy, elaborated at WP:COMMONNAME. I would like to clear up a couple of misconceptions that arose in the context of this naming dispute.

First of all, our naming policy is not based on what we can determine to be the most correct name of a thing, but rather is based on what is the most common name of a thing in English language sources. If the most common name is incorrect, according to whatever authorities, then that should probably be discussed in the article, but we base our article titles on common usage in English. We aim to reflect common usage, not to correct it.

Secondly, I'd like to remind everyone that any edit made by someone who thinks that they're improving the encyclopedia is never vandalism. We quite intentionally define vandalism here in a way that excludes attempts to do what one thinks is right, no matter how misguided or contrary to consensus. Vandalism would be blanking the page or replacing it with an obscene picture or something. It's much easier to work things out here when we can all refrain from throwing accusations of "vandalism" around in a content or naming dispute. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Reggaetón → Reggaeton — The word Reggaeton is a hybrid word used by Spanish and English speakers, because it is not purely a Spanish word (borrowing the non Spanish word reggae), it does not adhere to the same rules of spelling and grammar as other Spanish words. Throughout the history of this genre, less than one percent of Reggaeton music CDs use an accent on this word, subsequently this wiki article's title had not been changed in years. One particular user erroneously moved the page, the consensus on the discussion pages for both The Spanish Wiki (where the contributor has had his edite reversed multiple times by a number of established contributors) and The English Wiki is to retain the original title of the page, which is free of an accent mark. Only one user in wikipedia's history has attempted to retitle this page, and the majority of contributors to the discussion have provided facts of why it shouldn't have been renamed. I can't move it myself on en.wikipedia because I need an admin to first remove the old "reggaeton" page so that Reggaetón can be moved. But the fact that the page had been unchanged for years and that most agree it shouldn't be changed is support enough, I can't call this an unctroversial move only because one sole contributor continues to erroneously argue for its renaming —TacoPimp 13:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC) no vote from me - I'm just listing it here. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The page was moved to “reggaetón” because the previous spelling did not represent the correct orthography for the genre. The origin of the word comes from the Spanish language and has taken the liberty to use the English word reggae as a source of influence. While the hybrid word clearly has elements of both languages, it has officially been claimed by the Academia Puertorriqueña de la lengua española. [15] This academy is part of the Real Academia Española which governs the entire Spanish language. According to Spanish rules the word “reggaetón” requires an acute diacritic on the ‘o’ because the intonation is on the last syllable and the letter before the ‘n’ is a vowel. [16] The move is not an erroneous decision and the argument presented that no opposition to the former spelling has been brought until now is not sufficient to dismiss the change. The claim that only 1% of reggaetón albums utilise the diacritic is inaccurate, especially when albums pertaining to any category usually do not print the name of their genre on their CDs. Many English loan words maintain their original spelling such as: doppelgänger, soupçon, piñata, voilà and so on. The diacritic is a helpful tool in guiding the reader into stressing the last syllable longer than usual, it would be unnecessary to remove it when its presence is of no disturbance. --flamma 03:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

And interestingly es:Reggaeton does not use the accented ó either. —  AjaxSmack  08:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
They’re waiting for official word from the dictionary, despite the fact that the rules are already available on the Academy’s orthography section. Monkey moves? I’m sure you can make a stronger argument, or maybe you can’t. --flamma 17:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Note the BBC does not use accents. This is what they had to say regarding them: “We rarely use accents and other characters on BBC News Online, as different browsers and platforms can have difficulty rendering them.” --flamma 20:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Sfacets 01:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

  • Oppose The word’s origin is in the Spanish language, it uses the word “reggae” from the English language as influence. According to Spanish orthography rules the word “reggaetón” requires an accent on the ‘o’. When the English language loans words from other languages it can retain diacritics, like in the following words supported by the Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster: crème brûlée [17], déjà vu [18], doppelgänger [19], fiancée [20], über [21] and voilà [22]. Removing the accent would be unnecessary, it’s helpful and does not take up much space. --flamma 06:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The word is Spanish with English influence, all Spanish words must adhere to Spanish spellings, even if they have foreign language influence. For example: pizzería and réflex are not Spanish words but when they entered the Spanish language they adopted proper orthography. --flamma 00:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
And likewise, English word this has "adopted proper orthography spelling", even if the Spanish choose to spell it differently. Why do you think the Spanish language has a right to change spellings in the examples you gave, but nobody else has the same right? That's downright bizarre, especially when you are talkig about the English Wikipedia. Gene Nygaard 14:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The Spanish language does it to assist the reader in properly pronouncing the word. Sure English can borrow the word “reggaetón” and remove the accent, but why remove such a helpful assistant when you can leave it as is? This English Wiki is about a Spanish musical movement, therefore it should retain it’s original orthography. Just like the word jalapeño, it would be ignorant and rude for English to borrow the word and change it to “jalapeno”. Same goes for foreign words that have entered the English language like fiancée. Sure you could spell it “fiancee” but it loses its elegance, proper pronunciation, and in the end it becomes a watered down version. If we know that it has an accent and it helps the reader with the pronunciation why would we want to remove it? It sounds like unnecessary dissection to me. I don’t understand why we would purposely remove an accent from a foreign word to accommodate it better to the English language, especially when English is filled with many loan words that retain their diacritic like: naïve, résumé, piñata, café, exposé, façade and many more. If the word has an accent I suggest we keep it, no reason to be imperialistic about it and slice off the accent to make it more English. The accent helps the reader determine that the intonation is on the last syllable. --flamma 04:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I can't see how any English speaker would pronounce it differently, with or without the accent. English-speakers know how to pronounce reggae. Spanish has a rigid system of pronunciation and so needs the accent to say that it is non-standard. English does not need that (unlike the examples you gave). -- Beardo 07:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
You might be right in that English speakers would pronounce it correctly either way, but I’ve heard monolingual English speakers omit the elongated intonation in the last syllable. I don’t know what you mean by a rigid system, if you mean organized then yes. Non-standard means incorrect, uncommon and even vulgar; accents are most certainly neither of those. If you meant that accents are not standard, as in not normally used, then I’d have to disagree and say that accents are not a new invention and are used by numerous languages. I’m sure educated people will have no trouble saying the word correctly even if it were spelled as “reggaeton” as I’m sure all Spanish and French speakers would know exactly how to pronounce all their words if accents were removed from their language. But that argument doesn’t mean we should simplify spelling because we can get by without the guidance of accents. If that were the case we’d spell words as tuff instead of tough, but spelling is an art. Your last argument is that the examples I gave need the accents, but reggaetón does not. Despite the fact that Merriam-Webster is a horrendous source of spelling guidance they’ve maintained the original spelling of the following words that one could argue is also unnecessary: crème brûlée [23], déjà vu [24], doppelgänger [25], gâteau [26], über [27], voilà [28] and boîte [29]. The accents are kept because writing is an elegant form and to omit the accent would be erasing the truth. --flamma 19:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose It is important to maintain the etymology of this word. --Amdillon

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

From above: "If the word has an accent I suggest we keep it, no reason to be imperialistic about it and slice off the accent to make it more English."

This argument might be appropriate at es:Reggaeton (which interstingly does not use the accented ó) but calling for the use of English at English Wikipedia can hardly be construed as imperialism. —  AjaxSmack  08:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The argument is very appropriate here. The only misconstrued thing here is your perception of what “English” is, the English language can mostly certainly handle and does accept accents. Thanks. --flamma 17:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Questioning the page move

Ok, so I closed the move request in a way that seemed right to me, and flamma left me a talk page message suggesting that I was wrong, and that the spelling with the accent is actually the more common one in English language sources. This may well be the case, but I don't want to move the article again until we make sure of ourselves.

If you just Google for Reggaetón, then you get 1.85 million hits, mostly without the diacritic. If you Google for "Reggaetón", you get around .88 million hits, mostly with the diacritic. I never realized before that quotation marks would have any effect on a single-word search, but apparently they do.

If you restrict your search results to English language pages, then you get 1.26 million hits without the quotation marks and 73,000 with them. Google results aren't the most reliable indicator of English usage, and in this case, I don't think they tell us anything definitive.

If we can establish that the diacritics are more common, then I'll cheerfully move the page back, but from what I've seen so far, it's not abundantly clear whether that's the case. What do people think - can we put aside the question of whether or not the accent is correct and focus on determining whether it's more commonly used? -GTBacchus(talk) 08:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The use of quotes around single words in Google limits the search to exact matches. So a search with "Reggaetón" will only return pages with Reggaetón on them, but will not return pages with only Reggaeton and vice versa, while a search without the quotes will return pages that have Reggaetón and Reggaeton. So the accusation that you moved the article incorrectly because you didn't put the quotes around the article is a touch misleading. If you do a google search for "Reggaeton" you get 1.8 million. But since this is my only edit on this talk page and article, you may wish to consider this as educational only. --Bobblehead 09:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the protips on Google searches. Now I can ask it more specific questions. Restricting searches to English language pages and using quotation marks, I get 1.25 million for "Reggaeton" and 69,500 for "Reggaetón". That's a ratio of about 18 to 1. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Examples

The spelling “reggaetón” does have merit and widespread usage in the English language. Many of the sources you find under “reggaeton” in Google are not credible, you shouldn’t just look at how popular the mispelling is, instead consider notable publications and organisations. Whatever happened to sticking close with the etymology?
• Atlantic Records [30]
• Billboard [31]
• BMI [32]
• City Pages | [33]
• Fuse [34]
• MTV [35], [36], [37]
• MySpace, Daddy Yankee [38]
• Newsday [39], [40], [41], [42]
• New York Post [43]
• The N [44]
• The New York Times [45],[46], [47], [48], [49], [50], [51], [52], [53], [54], [55]
• The New Yorker [56], [57]
• Vibe [58], [59], [60], [61], [62]
• VH1 [63], [64]
• The Village Voice [65], [66]
--flamma 09:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for finding that list of sources for the accented spelling, flamma. You realize, I hope, that I'm not suggesting that the accented spelling doesn't have "merit and widespread use", just questioning whether it's more common in English language sources than the unaccented spelling. I think we should check whether someone can marshall an equally impressive list of highly credible sources spelling it with an unaccented 'o'.
We generally use commonness as a deciding factor because of the so-called "principle of least astonishment", i.e., we don't wish to surprise readers who find an article under an unexpected title. In this case, it's not as if using one spelling or the other is going to confuse half of our readers, so I don't see the principle of least astonishment playing much of a role. Thus, we start to consider other factors.
I've just consulted a few project pages looking for some guidance. WP:NC#Special characters is a policy, but it just refers us to the guideline WP:UE. There, in the section on borderline cases, we read that, in cases with no long-established history of usage, more consideration should be given to "correctness", but that seems largely addressed towards transliterations from other alphabets, like Cyrillic.
There's also a proposed guideline, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics), which is an interesting read. That guideline proposes that we go with whichever form is "routinely used" in credible English language sources, giving preference to the unaccented form in borderline cases. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying what you were suggesting, your move was initially unclear to me. I don’t see how users would be surprised by the accent on the title “reggaetón” if they’ve had exposure to the genre before. The passage reads, “More consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage.” It never implies that it is addressing translations from languages that don’t use the Latin alphabet; in this case it is easy to maintain the etymology of the word. The naming convention page says to use reliable English sources such as encyclopedias, dictionaries, or articles in major English-language newspapers. I don’t think it gets any more major than The New York Times or The New Yorker. As for the dictionary, it hasn’t officially entered any yet, but I’m sure the Oxford English Dictionary will do its job and include the spelling as the main variant. And can’t we assume that any publication that has omitted the accent has done so because they’re unfamiliar with typing accents or that they didn’t know that the word had one? It’s very easy to ignore an accent, but it takes effort to keep things precise. --flamma 04:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
As I tell you everytime I see the same discussion: Wait until the Spanish Academy or the Oxford Dictionary say something. Your "but I’m sure the Oxford English Dictionary will do its job and include the spelling as the main variant" it's YOUR opnion. Not the fact. And amigo, the only thing in this world that gives orders is... facts. Facts, you got that?. :D --Damián del Valle 01:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Why wait when the rest of the world is correctly using the spelling with the accent? And as for facts, I’ve already provided you with the facts. The word has an accent, refer to the RAE’s orthography regulations [67]. All the information you seek is there! --flamma 03:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Please explain why there isn't one reggaeton artist, group or DJ named in the aforementioned sources with a CD that actually has the word reggaeton bearing an accent on its cover? Is every artist who feeds their kids because of this music wrong about how its spelled? I also find it interesting that numerous wikipedia contributors that had disproved Noe on es.wikipedia.org didn't even have to vote their support to restore this article to its original spelling, and it still received votes. Yet the only contributor to wikipedia that actually agrees with Noe has an account that was created two days ago and has never edited a page save to cast their vote on this matter. 70.149.163.194 03:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Next time place your comment at the bottom of the page. Most artist do not place the name of their genre on their cd albums, so there goes your claim. If you looked at the sources I provided, Daddy Yankee has used the correct spelling, I think that counts as one reggaetón artist. Are you jealous about the vote? Get over it and argue in favour for the anglicised version by providing sources. You also said that the person on my side “never edited a page save to cast their vote on this matter”, but if we look at your history you’ve never edited a page except to cast your opinion on this matter. Hypocrital don’t you think? My name has an accent by the way, it is not Noe but Noé. Thank you for contributing. --flamma 03:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Your last comment was your own self-inflicted nail in the coffin when it comes to indicating that you are completely unfamiliar with this type of music, its history and its artists. The biggest artist in reggaeton right now, Don Omar, certainly has used the word Reggaeton without an accent on his CD covers. So Has Luny Tunes, Ivy Queen, DJ Kazzanova, DJ Creme, DJ Playero, Reggaeton Ninos, Hector el Father, Gargolas and countless others. What some of the other contributors have asked for is evidence of which version is more commonly used, the evidence which goes against your unsupported claim exists in the form of dozens or even hundreds of popular CDs (recorded by Spanish speaking artists) that use the word without the accent. In all your research, you found one CD (which wasn't even by a reggaeton artist) that used the version that included an accent. I have no idea why you persist in this futile effort to incorrectly title this page when it has been repeatedly proven that every reggaeton artist that has put out a CD does not share your opinion. 70.149.187.88 07:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Noe, I had my fingers crossed and hoped that you would bring up the fact that this IP doesn't reflect any recent contributions. The difference is that I'm only throwing in my two cents without voting, and you've created a sockpuppet in a pathetic attempt to vote for your own argument. The icing on the cake is that you write "maintain the etymology of the word" under both your Noe account and sockpuppet Amdillon account and totally overlooked the fact that you outed yourself. And don't bother going back to change what you wrote, or you'll be reported and banned from wikipedia. Why else would you make a sockpuppet if you knew that your argument was on wobbly legs? 70.149.187.88 07:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
You say "Why wait when the rest of the world is correctly using the spelling with the accent?" Are you seroius? What rest of the world? No matter how many sources you show us with Reggaetón; we'll be able to show you more and more without the accent. --Damián del Valle 10:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Please do so. It would be very helpful to have a list of sources using the word without the accent, to establish for any future reader that both forms are in fact routinely used in reputable sources. -GTBacchus(talk) 10:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's start.
Ok, there they are. There are really a lot, so with this, we can have some Reggaeton for a while.--Damián del Valle 11:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
To: 70.149.187.88
Don Omar is the biggest? I think that’s a matter of opinion. You speak of “hundreds of popular CDs... that use the word without the accent.” Please if you can show me proof that notable reggaetón artist use the anglicised spelling on their main releases (no bootlegs) then I’ll be more than happy to give such information the respect it deserves. However you should omit DJ’s, seeing as how they mix the music of others and all the ones you listen don’t even have their own Wiki pages. Maybe you could start one though.
Your argument about the “sockpuppet” is libel, and not true. Perhaps you should be an attentive reader and look at the survey and read “Please remember that this survey is not a vote”. Yet you accuse me of voting when voting was never an option. When I wrote “maintain the etymology of the word” it was meant to mimic the great words and advice of AMDillon. Reported and banned? I like your sense of humour. And yet, you still haven’t seen the hypocrisy in criticizing AMDillon for never editing a wiki other than to place her two cents, when you did the same thing. Except that AMDillon has a username, and you’ve hidden yourself behind numbers.
If you wish to change the page to the anglicised spelling, give me photos of those CDs you speak of. I’m sure you have a scanner or camera to use in photographing all those discs you have. If not, find a friend or ask around, I’d really like to see them. Until sufficient proof can be given and a consensus is reached do not change back the Wiki page, especially since you’re an anonymous user and your actions would be considered part of an edit war, which is the sole reason this page was semi-protected in the first place. If you do keep this up, it shall be you who is blocked.
To: Damián del Valle
Yes I am “seroius” [sic], while you claim you can show more sources without the accent the goal is to show more examples from reputable sources. While I would love to accept your Spanish links I cannot, please only provide English sources. Also let me restate that we are looking for articles here, not random websites that have used the word.
The following are websites that I do not accept because they are not notable, articles, or even in English: Mundoreggaeton.com, Reggaeton.com, Reggaeton.net, Sandungueo.com, Press Perú, Univisión, The Post Chronicle, Reggaeton Online and Sensación Latina.
So technically you only have Reuters (which I’ve never heard of before), The New York Post (which has already been established that they have used the spelling with the accent), Voy Music (again never heard of them), and AZ Central (never heard of). Don’t lose hope though, I’m sure you can find better sources, keep on looking.
To: GTBacchus
If it helps any, The New York Times: Manual of Style and Usage, MLA handbook for Writers of Research Papers and The Chicago Manual of Style all suggest to keep the accents in foreign words. --flamma 21:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Moving this back to the left so we don't have to read a one inch column of text. With respect to Don Omar, his album debuted better than Daddy Yankee's, and he broke countless reggaeton sales records and chart records. No other reggaeton artist has more Youtube video views for solo tracks (not collaborations) than Don Omar, even his worst videos have more views than "Gasolina". As for album covers, here you go:
Don Omar: Reggaeton Latino
Reggaeton Ninos (chart topping album which even uses the ~)
Reggaeton Hits by Luny Tunes (one of the hugest reggaeton albums in history)
DJ Kazzanova: The Reggaeton Remixes (host of a music countdown on Mun2 TV, the first to have a nationally syndicated reggaeton radio show, and host of the syndicated Subelo reggaeton radio show broadcast through dozens of major stations nationwide, so he's notable) 
Gold Star Music Reggaeton Hits] (chart topper Hector el Father of Def Jam's Roc La Familia owns this label and put out this CD of his artists)
And I'm not including the hundreds of compilations that use the word without an accent (just look up the word "reggaeton" on CD Universe or Amazon or any other CD site). Sfacets (on behalf of 70.149.187.88)


A few usage examples

I've been doing a little looking, and here are some usage examples in articles I've found. (BTW, Reuters is a well-known news service.) Note that the NYTimes has used both spellings.

Reggaeton

Reggaetón

Aleta 05:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the sources, they’re certainly notable publications. I tried searching for “reggaetón” on those sites, but their search capabilities don’t support accents. The BBC usually never uses accents, I have a statement from them saying, “We rarely use accents and other characters on BBC News Online, as different browsers and platforms can have difficulty rendering them.” Note that the USAToday probably does not use accents to begin with since they omitted the accent in Luis Miguel’s album México en la Piel in the same article you provided. The New York Times used the ancligised spelling 64 times while they used “reggaetón” 89 times. I’m at a loss here, it’s obvious that both spellings are present in reputable publications. I still think that orthography “reggaetón” should remain seeing as how it is the first spelling, but we could do both. In the WP:ENGLISH page it reads, “—more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage”.—Preceding unsigned comment added by flamma (talk • contribs)
You're welcome! Aleta 23:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Would it be a problem if the article’s title is anglicised for convenience purposes but the article begins with: Reggaetón (spelled with or without the accent in English and also known as Reguetón and Reggaetón in Spanish) is a form of dance music... In the remainder of the article it can be spelled without the accent, as long as it is established in the beginning that it can and does have an acute diacritic. I’ve taken the liberty to remove Reggetón as a formal spelling in the example above because it is rarely used. It is important to include the accented version in the article because its existence cannot be proven otherwise. I’m not asking for much, just for recognition that the accent in the word exist and is used. --flamma 17:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
That sounds entirely reasonable to me. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:28, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
To me, as well - it would not be unreasonable to have an etymology section which could address the orthography issue directly. Aleta 22:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I’d love to contribute a piece regarding the etymology. I’ll wait for word from Oxford and RAE before writing it though. As of now the word has not entered either dictionaries but according to the Spanish Academy’s regulations on spelling the word requires a diacritic and has apparently been claimed by the Puerto Rican department. If nobody minds the diacritic can remain in the red-box on the right side of the wiki too. Thanks for all your help. --flamma 18:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The 1st sentence reads: "Reggaetón (spelled with or without an accent in English and also known as Reguetón"

Wouldn't it make more sense to read ""Reggaeton (spelled with or without an accent in English and also known as Reguetón" (without the accent?) There is no sense it accentuating the 1st instanc eof the word and then not accentuating the rest - there has to be consistency. Sfacets 03:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

You’re asking for consistency for the spelling when there is no such thing in the English language. Both spellings are used and it’s already been agreed that the first word will have the accent to suggest that the diacritic is used. I also removed your comment regarding the frequency of the word, it’s not important in the first sentence. We simply want to establish that both words are used, not suggest to the reader that one is more popular than the other (which has already been done since the article’s name is anglicised and so is the spelling in the rest of the article). I don’t understand your anomosity towards the accent, is it such a threat? If you care to speak about the frequency of the word I suggest writing a new paragraph about the etymology and usage. --flamma 04:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking for consistency of speling within the article. Your proposed change has not been agreed (since here I am contesting it) - what we want to establish i the article is 1)A consistant spelling of the word 2)alternative spellings 3)Specification on use of each spelling. 5 have no animosity against the accent, It is vital that there is consistency of spelling in the article however. Sfacets 05:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
You’re asking for consistency of the spelling within the article, but the article reflects English usage. Both spellings are used and the argument that the anglicised version is more common has already been given. You’re going in circles here, just read the discussion and try to understand. Your comment on the page is redundant, it’s also belittling of the diacritic. Please do not add your frequent fact there; it’s really not the right place. Like I already stated, both spellings are used and that is a fact. Whether one is used more often is irrelevant because it has already been proven that both have merit according to notable publications. You can’t ask for consistency when it does not exist. --flamma 06:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
That makes absolutely no sense - once a word is spelled a certain way in a document, it is spelled the same throughout. That's the way it is. Adding that one spelling is used more often than the other is not belittling, it is merely setting perspective. Maybe you should try and understand, this article has been here since December 2003, and now you come along and expect the whole thing to change on your idea of how the word is spelt? The examples given above prove the ratio of just how little the spelling of Reggaeton is used with an accent. Oh I like how you've claimed that I have started an edit war, when it is you who is doing all the reverting.Sfacets 06:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
You keep refering to the fact that this page was created in 12/2003, but what relevance does that have? I didn’t know that there were regulations that things cannot be changed. I expect the whole thing to change? The spelling appears twice on the page! I hardly consider that the whole page. The word is used quite often and in notable publications. It was already established that both spellings are used, you have started an edit war. In fact you changed the spelling of the first word without consulting the discussion page and seeing that people had already agreed to it. I’m just reverting your inconsiderate changes. --flamma 06:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I keep refering to it? I wrote that once, 30 minutes ago. You on the other hand keep reverting edits you don't like. Edit warring. Sfacets 06:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi. flamma, I hate to say it, because I agreed above that your suggestion was reasonable, but this isn't an issue that we can will away. Even if Sfacets changes his mind, and the first word in the article remains "Reggaetón" while the title of the article is "Reggaeton", someone else will bring it up again, sooner or later. The title and the first word generally match, and we're usually consistent throughout an article. People will react when they see an inconsistency there, and we'll be here all over again.
In order for the article to be stable, we have to have the first word match the title. I agree, however, that explicitly noting the lesser frequency of the accented version is unnecessary - if we use the unaccented version for the title and first word, we're already implying that it's the most frequent use.
Is that a compromise we can agree to? -GTBacchus(talk) 07:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I can agree to that. Sfacets 09:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No it’s something I cannot agree to because it brings us back to the begining of the argument which completely disregards the diacritic in the word when #1 it is obviously used and #2 it’s the original spelling of the word since it is a loan word. If it’s going to keep on being argued then let’s continue to argue until a general consensus can be reached. Not a compromise I can agree to, we cannot shove the spelling under the rug when it’s obviously out there and when the spelling fits the etymology of the word. --flamma 13:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to have to go along with GTBacchus on this. If the article title is without the accent, then the accented version should be given as the alternative, with the rest of the text conforming to the title. The point about internal (to the article) consistency is valid. A similar issue occurs relative to British vs. American vs. Australian... English orthography. If an article is using American spelling, one would consistently use "honor" and "meter", but if using British spelling, "honour" and "metre" - not mixing it within the article. Sorry flamma - I know that's not what you wanted to see, and doesn't really match what I said before, but I do think consistency is important. Aleta 23:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
#1 It has been established on the talk page that Reggaetón appears less by authoritative websites and music artists than Reggaeton. This warrants a mention that in rare cases Reggaetón is used, but the article should clearly not begin with this seldom-used spelling. #2 You can provide no evidence that the word was originally spelled as Reggaetón. If its a "loan word" from Spanish, that makes the root of the word (reggae) a non-Spanish word that has never included an accent. It is no more a Spanish word than "broder" (brother) is as a Spanish term of endearment. If we can agree that Reggaeton (no accent) is the most popular spelling used by artists, record labels and Reggaeton music sites and Univision (which you listed earlier on the page as an acceptable reference), then the article should start with the word unaccented, but with a reference that it is sometimes (albeit less commonly) referred to as Reggaetón. We need to keep the article consistent, I don't think we need to make this an issue of concessions (i.e. "we'll keep the article title spelling the same as it has been since 2003, but let's change the spelling of the word's first mention). That's just not consistent. 68.155.70.91 23:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
For clarification, the consensus at this point is to keep the first word of the article similar to the title of the article, with the accented word mentioned as an alternate. There seemed to be some confusion in a recent edit that suggests the consensus was for keeping the accented word first, the last few comments indicate otherwise. 68.155.70.91 04:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
For the last time, we have three people saying to keep the first word of the article without an accent, and mention the accented one as the alternate. Only one person disagrees. So why does KhoiKhoi keep reverting it against what the consensus on the talk page is for? Aleta, GtBacchus, Sfacets are all saying to keep the first word in the article consistent with the title. This is becoming vandalism. 68.155.70.91 02:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
However much you disagree with the edit, it's not vandalism. We define vandalism very narrowly here on purpose, and reverting an article to a version you believe to be better cannot fit that definition. It would be entirely appropriate to communicate with Khoikhoi at User talk:Khoikhoi, and ask for a reason for the reversions. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

∆ | You’re flip-floppers that preach consistency; the irony! As for the origins of the word it has been said numerous times. The word is Spanish with English influence and has been claimed by the Academia Puertorriqueña de la lengua española.[68] According to orthography rules in Spanish, it requires an acute diacritic.[69] English has been known to use accents by educated writers and “reggaetón” is no exception, the correct spelling is used by numerous English publications. It’s ridiculous that the “most popular” spelling according to Google is being used as the main variant here. Most popular means what people think is right, not what is considered to be proper spelling. The Wikipedia naming convention guideline states “when there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage,” but that was of course ignored. If we’re going to go with most common then I welcome the floodgates that will mark Wikipedia as mediocre... officially that is. What’s most funny and depressing is that if we would allow correctness to lead, the most common usage would be the original. Can’t spread élite spelling if you hide it in the dark and find happiness in knock offs. It’s also apparent that these reggaetón artists can’t spell the name of their own genre; don’t they have the money to hire a well-informed person to write correctly for them? It’s hard for me to understand how you could praise a badly Xeroxed copy of the word rather than accepting the original. It’s accepting your love for dumbing things down and exposing the educational system’s failure. That’s all I really had to say, you people make my head hurt. Good luck with paving the article in gold, see you again my friends. --flamma 08:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

You know there is an easier explanation than that the whole world is wrong... Sfacets 10:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Early reggaeton artists

Shouldn't they be mentioned somewhere in the article since they are pioneers in the genre? You know, Gomy Man, Yaviah, Guanábanas, Guallo Man, etc. --Pasajero 02:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

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