Talk:Republic of China (1912–1949)/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Requested move 9 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Third page moved, others no consensus. There broad support with some neutrals that the third should be moved for WP:CONSISTENCY reasons (apart from one oppose which cited WP:NATURALDIS), so it seems we have consensus for that. The other two don't seem to have a clear consensus to move though, with #1 opposed on the grounds that it's a country page not a history page and #2 opposed for seemingly excluding Taiwan. If they are ever resubmitted at RM, I would suggest doing them individually and not together, as it confuses things when people are voting on two separate proposals.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:53, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

– I think we should put the years in parentheses to indicate which period the time period is referring to. Hatnotes may help with aiding readers to what they are looking for. Related discussions for reference: Talk:History_of_Bangladesh_(1971–present)#Requested_move_7_June_2020, Talk:History_of_India_(1947–present)#Requested_move_10_July_2020, Talk:History_of_Pakistan_(1947–present)#Requested_move_10_July_2020. Interstellarity (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose the second, neutral on the first and the third. "History of the People's Republic of China" and "History of China (1949–present)" should be distinguished. The United Nations still recognized Republic of China as "China" until 1970s, although Republic of China only controlled Taiwan after 1950 or so. The mainland was controlled by PRC. So "History of China (1949-present)" clearly creates huge controversy. --SCreditC (talk) 00:49, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I think the second move should not even be voted here by Wikipedia editors. Please refer to "China and the United Nations". It's against the international consensus and is going to create huge controversy. --SCreditC (talk) 01:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Last time I checked, the United Nations had absolutely no power over Wikipedia, so I don't see how this is important in any way.--Khajidha (talk) 15:57, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • It is not about whether the UN has power over Wikipedia. It is about 1) international consensus and 2) controversy. Why would we support a move that might create huge controversy that relates to over 1.4 billion people in PRC and ROC? In a word, the stated benefit of moving a page seems trivial given the huge controversy the move may incur. The Wikipedia:Neutral point of view requires us not to take a stance. And the simple name "China" after 1949 is controversial already. When one says "History of China after 1949", does it mean history of PRC, or history of ROC, or history of both? --SCreditC (talk) 20:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
After 1949 "China" is the PRC. That's the common English name. Or haven't you seen the China article?--Khajidha (talk) 20:57, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
That is not. Wikipedia is created after 2000, when the world recognizes "China" as PRC. But you are talking about history after 1949, when ROC standed for China for an extended period of time worldwide. Do not take your opinion as common sense. The fact that we have an ongoing discussion here is already an indication of controversy. Accept it. --SCreditC (talk) 21:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is created after 2000" Yes. And we are talking about an article written on said Wikipedia. Which is why it should follow current English language norms. Thank you for defeating yourself. --Khajidha (talk) 23:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
LOL for revealing your ignorance, lack of logic and arrogance to an even higher level. Wikipedia documents history, so it must respect history, not removing/altering historical consensus using today's consensus. China today means PRC, but for quite an extended period of time after 1949 means ROC. This is historical consensus globally. Thus, "History of China (1949-present)" is controversial. Period. You seem not capable of even recognizing the controversy here. SMH. --SCreditC (talk) 00:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Historical retrospectives of any country include all previous states within their territories during the time in question. So "history of China (1949-present)" is perfectly normal usage. Or would you say that we could only write a "History of Russia (1992-present)" article but not a "History of Russia (1900-present)" one? --Khajidha (talk) 02:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Look, Russia (1992-) and the Russia during Soviet Union exist at different times. However, PRC and ROC exist at the same time after 1949, and have been recognized by different groups of countries. In early years, ROC was recognized by most countries as "China", and after 1970s PRC was recognized by most countries as "China". Hence, the controversy comes from who represents "China" when both PRC and ROC exist. When you said "retrospectives of any country", you didn't realize there is no universal way to define whether it is PRC or ROC that represents "China (i.e., the country)" after 1949. This IS the controversy. Throughout the discussion, you have been stating explicitly or assuming implicitly that "China after 1949" is PRC. Always remember this is your own opinion and all your analyses based on this assumption are against historical consensus globally and are controversial to many people. I suggest you accept that there is controversy instead of pushing your own opinion around as "common sense" implicitly or explicitly. --SCreditC (talk) 05:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose first, weak Support for the second, Neutral on the third. --Khajidha (talk) 01:15, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose the first since it is a a state page not a history page, neutral on the others. It would be preferable to have these as separate RMs given they all have different considerations. CMD (talk) 01:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose all three. Alternatively, if consistency is seen as important, move the second to History of the People's Republic of China since 1949 or History of the People's Republic of China, 1949–present or the like. While quite a few articles use it for legacy reasons, there's no need for parenthetical disambiguation here. For the first, per above, it's an article on the state AND its history, so the move doesn't make that entirely clear. SnowFire (talk) 23:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Support #1 and #3, Oppose #2. The Republic of China during this period had various government types including the Beiyang government, numerous warlords, the Nationalist KMT government, Japanese puppet governments, and several more. #2 (number two) doesn't make as much sense as the People's Republic of China is the name of the country that rules Mainland China but not all of China, if Taiwan wouldn't claim to be a part of China then the move would make sense, but Taiwan currently claims that it is'" China so it wouldn't make much sense to claim that the People's Republic of China is somehow all of China (well, it would make sense if you redefine the term "China" to only mean the PRC). Taiwan from 1945 makes sense as it would includes its entire history under ROC rule as opposed to only from 1949 and it would fall better under the naming conventions. --Donald Trung (talk) 20:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose first, Neutral on the other two. I see no reason to change an article on a sovereign state to a history article. Whatever changes in government took place can be covered in the state's article. Dimadick (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose – The first article, "Republic of China (1912–1949), is a historical country article, not unlike, for example "Soviet Union". The reason why the years have been added to the title is in order to distinguish the historical country from the currently-existing country Taiwan (which, in the lede, is said to be officially referred to as the "Republic of China"). Taiwan (Republic of China) is more-or-less viewed as a successor state to the Republic of China (1912–1949), but the situation is much more complex than that. The first article is not a historical period article and hence I oppose the suggested article-move. The second article-move that has been suggested isn't unreasonable but it's also not necessary, so I neither support nor oppose it. As some others have suggested, it might imply that Taiwan isn't part of China, which could be controversial, though I'm not really concerned by that particular point. The third article-move is reasonable (as others have said, for consistency) and I support it. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Today part of...

In the infobox, it says that the Republic of China is today part of:

  • Bhutan
  • India
  • Mongolia
  • Myanmar
  • Russia
  • Kyrgyzstan

Did the ROC actually ever control or have sovereignty over parts of these countries? Or does this purely just refer to the ROC's unenforced territorial claims?

I do know that the ROC briefly occupied Mongolia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

It currently also lists Taiwan which is de facto independent but neither claims to be an independent country de jure nor is recognised as such by the PRC or any country with diplomatic relations with the PRC. Kiore (talk) 08:54, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Middle of the article a mess for anyone else?

Before the province table and after the government section, there's a big blank in the middle of the article with just the pictures lining the sides. I'm seeing this happen on a 1920x1080 monitor, but if I view the article at a lower resolution (by making the browser window smaller), there's no big white gap anymore. Anyone else with a widescreen monitor seeing this happen? How can we fix this? LittleCuteSuit (talk) 06:27, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I see it too if zoomed out, it's an issue with the article having a large amount of media and templates that are messing with the formatting. The lead infobox is absolutely enormous, the Names infobox is about four times longer than the names section, and there are two history vertical sidebars (two too many really). These boxes push all the images from every section above Government into the Government section, which is visibly overwhelmed. The first easy action would be to remove the two history sidebars (there is currently a general discussion on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section about the value of their existence and use), which by itself shifts the issues upwards and removes the blank space. I would also remove the Names infobox as far too long and is already present in the main Names of China article. More tricky is cutting down the huge lead infobox, which will require a mixture of simplifying and culling. CMD (talk) 06:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Misleading name - "Republic of China (1912–1949)"

As the Republic of China is still operating in Taiwan, the current title will confuse people, the reader might think ROC has been dead. Please correct the ambiguous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halon c (talk • contribs) 11:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

See the extensive list of page-move attempts given above and the extensive discussions linked from it. The current title, if potentially confusing, has been arrived at after much thought. Some effort has gone into making it less confusing by the placing of hatnotes, links, and explanatory text. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

"Tridemist china" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Tridemist china. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 June 12#Tridemist china until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 18:28, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 8 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 00:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Republic of China (1912–1949) → China (1912–1949) – There is already a article like Cambodia (1953–1970) so why not follow the trend per WP:COMMONNAME? 142.112.224.41 (talk) 20:35, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

  • Oppose insufficient rationale to even consider an extremely politically contentious proposal. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 15:10, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose The name as suggested suggests continuity with the People's Republic of China, rather than with Taiwan. Dimadick (talk) 09:38, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1949? Guidelines to follow on when a state stops existing

On one hand, the title states the years 1912 - 1949, on the other hand, the very same article states the fact that the state was still recognized in the UN as a sovereign state until 1971. At the very least, it creates a kind of paradox: a non-existing state was a functioning member of the UN from 1949 till 1971. Does Wikipedia have any guidelines on how it defines whether a state in question is still existing or has already ended? I am new to Wikipedia so I don't know. 118.232.8.200 (talk) 11:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

The government of Republic of China move to Taiwan in 1949,in the same year,CCP control the mainland of China.So 1949 is the end of ROC mainland period,and ROC lose UN representation in 1971. Re-pasako (talk) 12:26, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 23 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 11:35, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Republic of China (1912–1949) → Republic of china Mainland period – This entry mainly introduces the period of the Republic of China in the mainland,before retreat to Taiwan. So maybe "Republic of China Mainland period" would fit this entry Re-pasako (talk) 08:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

  • Oppose. The "Name of State (years)" title structure is widespread in historical-state articles on Wikipedia, and I think it's best to be WP:CONSISTENT with that pattern unless there's a proven alternate WP:COMMONNAME. (Additionally, there are capitalization problems with the proposed title, which should be addressed if a consensus emerges to move.) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Not an improvement. Walrasiad (talk) 17:10, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per ModernDayTrilobite. The Night Watch (talk) 04:26, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't agree with this requested move proposal, the C is lowercase. SAAeh (talk) 15:45, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppoose. This ROC is not only or even mainly the predecessor of Taiwan. It is also the predecessor of China, arguably more so. So it's not just or primarily about the history of Taiwan. The current name captures this well, giving both the name China adopted at the time and the dates it was a Republic.5.81.136.7 (talk) 16:07, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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