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GA Review

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 20:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Lead

Early life and college

  • it "insulted my intelligence". — How so?
  • What year was he during the 1968 draft?
  • What years was he in university?
    • Regarding both of those previous questions, the source is a little unclear. It seems that he probably started college after the 1966 season, but I'm not sure we can quite claim that from what is said. I think wording it as is best reflects the sources. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 16:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First professional season (1969)

1970

  • "Dark feared that he may have overused Hand during his rookie season." — How do we know this?
    • We know this because of the references at the end of the paragraph. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 16:08, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's a flippant answer. First of all, how do we know what Dark feared? We can know what he said, but not what what was actually going on in his head. Second, what do those references at the end of the paragraph say? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • Read the paragraph to figure out what those references said. "Dark feared..." is an appropriate topic sentence for the paragraph. His account in the biography shows that he thought he left Hand in the game too long, and that doing so had a permanent impact on his career. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. But Dark feared it did. And your statement that we can't know what was actually going on inside his head - well then, how can it ever be said that someone "feared" something? We look for evidence indicating that they did. And Dark's statements are evidence that he "feared" he overused Hand. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 16:32, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
          • I wasn't asking how you interpreted the references, I was asking what the references say. In any event, I've requested the book from my library, so I'll find out soon enough. As to what someone fears, what you can say (among other things) is that he wrote that he feared, or that he said what he feared. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:00, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
            • Sanfranciscogiants17, here's what the reference says: "In Cleveland in 1970 I was pitching Rich Hand against the Angels. Hand hadn't completed a game that year, and after a certain number of pitches I told him to take a seat. He had a 6-2 lead, it was hot, I figured he'd done enough. He said he wanted to finish. I said no. About ten days later Hand was beating the Angels again, 6-0, but by the eighth inning he had thrown a lot of pitches. I went out to relieve him. He said, 'No Skip. Please let me finish.' I said, 'All right, but if you get into any trouble you're coming out.' He struggled through the eighth. I said, 'That's it, Rich.' He resisted again. 'Aw, c'mon, Skip. Let me finish. I gotta finish a game.' And like an idiot I said okay. He would up throwing about 150 pitches that day. The next time he was due to pitch he came to me complainting of a sore elbow. 'I don't know what happened, Skip,' he said. Well, I knew what happened. And it was my fault. Rich Hand wasn't the same after that. His arm never came back." What about that passage supports the idea that "Dark feared that he may have overused Hand" (my emphases)? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:23, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
              • Usernameunique Everything about the passage supports that idea, but most specifically - "And like an idiot" - "His arm never came back." We can conclude from this statement that Dark thought he had overused Hand. And, contrary to what you say, we can know what he was thinking - HE WROTE THE BOOK, for goodness' sake - these are his thoughts on paper! However, we can't just say "Dark overused Hand" because of editorial sense - there are any number of reasons why Hand might not have turned into a good pitcher. Dark simply remembers a time where he feels like an idiot for doing something that he perceives had a negative effect on Hand's career. I don't understand why this wording is problematic, and I will not be changing it. If that's going to be a problem for you, I might as well go ahead and renominate the article, because I'm convinced that "Dark feared" is the best way to report this info. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 12:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He threw his first shutout" — How many pitches?
  • "6–13 record, a 3.83 ERA" — Was he just getting no run support?

Texas Rangers (1972–1973)

California Angels (1973)

Final professional season (1974)

  • What does "he was loaned" mean?
    • Actually, looking at Baseball-Reference.com, it says he was "optioned." That, however, usually means that the parent club sent him down, and Pawtucket was affiliated with Boston, not California. I tried to find out how Hand might have gone from California's system to Boston's but was unable. The SABR source does make clear that the time with Pawtucket was later in the year, so I changed the wording. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 16:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Description, career statistics and pitching style

Personal life

References

This version looked at. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sanfranciscogiants17, comments above. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion requested in the hopes of finding reviewer to take over

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Regrettably, Usernameunique has been inactive for a while and although they have replied to queries, they have twice failed to resume reviewing on the schedule they themselves proposed. The nomination status has been changed to "2nd opinion" in the hopes of finding a new reviewer to take over the review. Thank you to whoever steps up. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:42, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be happy to take on this review. @Sanfranciscogiants17: I'll have some comments for you in the next 24 hours. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion (FFF)

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Overall progress

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GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    See notes below
    All fixed during review.
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
    One lead-related note/question below
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:
    Some citations need confirmation or WP:SAYWHERE fixes. WP:V spot checks all looked good.
    All fixed during review.
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
    High match percentage with the SABR source: quotes and statistics. Googled some phrases and not sign of copyvio.
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    I've seen nothing—in the cited sources I spot-checked or the not-yet-cited sources I've found—that suggests there are major parts of the biography unaddressed.
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
    See notes below
    All fixed during review.
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    Optional request for alt text noted below. Images are license-tagged and they appear to check out
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    Put on hold for a week to give time for fixes
    All fixed during review.

Old review items

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First, some items from Usernameunique's review:

  • I see where the reviewer was coming from with "Dark feared", but I think it's a reasonable summary.
  • I think the Sporting News sources might be accessible to you. Head to SABR site, head to the The Sporting News entry, and click on "Free for SABR members via Paper of Record." Seems that's somehow enough to get Paper of Record access, with the paper showing under Missouri. All the cited articles are available via the search. Let me know if this doesn't work for you and I can email PDFs. I tried briefly but was unable to get a link that could work in a citation.
  • Not a GA criteria item: please do link Alvin Dark in the citation. See MOS:REFLINK for citations as an exception to the duplicate link guideline.
  • Can you please respond to each line of Usernameunique's review? Even if it's to say "I don't know" or "I disagree".

Stopping here for now. I won't put this on hold until I have a full review out, and at that point you'll have a week to fix any issues. If you'd like to get started on the above items now, go for it, but I expect you'll have plenty of time. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:34, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA review notes

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That's it! Sanfranciscogiants17, I've placed this review on hold for a week. Please use that time to make the needed changes. I could use a confirmation that you reviewed the PDFs to be sure they verify the article content. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:03, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All needed fixes are marked as done or are pending some followup. Sometime in the next 48 hours I'll check through them and give the article a final read-through. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Final read through done. Overall GA criteria list above is updated. Sanfranciscogiants17, congrats on another GA! Future improvements could address more of the optional items below, clarify the Pawtucket mystery, and mine more sources available through Paper of Record and Newspapers.com archives. If you have an idea of what you're looking for, I'm always happy to dig a bit an provide PDFs or clippings. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Non-GA notes (optional)

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  • Overall
    • "Broad"ness is looking good, but here are some sources you should at least consider:
    • Please review for consistency in use of Oxford/serial comma
    • Please review quoted material for MOS:LQ punctuation fixes. Comma should follow the quotation marks in sentences like: "This is a very minor matter", said Firefangledfeathers.
      • Just a note on why these commas aren't compliant - I was taught in school that commas always went within the punctuation marks, not without. Obviously, it's a style thing - what's right in MLA isn't necessarily going to fly in Chicago, or vice-versa. If I ever try to take this to FA status, then I will work on making the change. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 22:38, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please add alt text to images
    • Check all the "however"s to be sure they're needed.
  • Lead
  • Early life and college
    • "in the first of those years" → "in 1967"
  • First professional season
  • You introduce PCL as an acronym and never use it again.
  • Cleveland Indians

More to come. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:50, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A few more comments posted. Did you get the emailed sources? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]