Talk:Roy Welensky

"White African"

Why is he so prominantly listed as a "White African politician" ? I don't see Nelson Mandela's page saying "Black African politician", nor do I see, for example, Adam Afriyie principally described as a "Black Britsh politician". I think it would be more fair to describe him as "an African politician". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.2.82 (talk) 11:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The "default" ethnicity for Africans is black, like the default ethnicity of a Britisher is white. In the case of minorities, this has to be clarified. Michael ^talk 22:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Actual name and father's nationality

This comment had been inserted in the article, I think by LettyBIRD:
"I have 2 corrections - 1) My Father's name was actually Raphael Welensky (trust me I've seen his birth certificate) family legend has it that he was named after the arc-angel but was soon found to be far from angelic and so his name was shortened to Roy. 2) My grandfather was Lithuanian not Polish."
I have moved it here as this kind of comment is supposed to be on the discussion page. On the article an actual correction has to be made. Though I do indeed trust the writer of this comment, the original information is referenced to a published source and so a correction ought to be referenced to a published source as well. Is there any that can be used?
Rexparry sydney 23:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not have any published sources available, but it is relatively common knowledge that the Jewish community of southern Africa was overwhelmingly composed of those who came from Lithuania and Sir Roy would not be an exception. I'm going to replace 'Polish' with 'Lithuanian' in the article and remove the link to the talk page, simply to do away with the blight it leaves on the article. When a source is found, it can be added. michael ^talk 05:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

His autobiography says his father came from a village near Vilna (which is Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania), despite still stating his came from Poland. Settled. michael ^talk 07:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Britannica has ‘original name Roland Welensky’. Perhaps it is wrong? – Kaihsu (talk) 11:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Also Historical Society; National Portrait Gallery; Oxford Dictionary of World History; Time; etc. Especially his own work The United Nations and Colonialism in Africa. I think it should be Roland, not Raphael. – Kaihsu (talk) 11:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I can assure you that this is a historical error because of his association with Britain ("Roy", his common name, would automatically be considered to be a shortening of "Roland" since he was a white heading a British colony), rather than the lands of his origins. The books referenced note him as Raphael. Michael ^talk 22:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

>> The Welensky Story, Gary Allighan, (Purnell and Sons, S.A., Cape Town and Johannesburg) 1962: page 19, Michael Welensky of Russian-Polish descent on his mother's side was born in the town of Vilna. He later became a Swdish citizen, then lived in Germany, then in the USA becoming a citizen. Page 51: Raphael was the name on his birth certificate, but he was always roy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.105.192 (talk) 00:22, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that neither Poland nor Lithuania existed as a well-defined entity in 1907 (or before), when Raphael Welensky left - both were then part of the Russian Empire. Both claimed Vilnius (as it now is) and both have occupied it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:04, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

My father Raphael was born in South Africa, my Grandfather Michael was the one who left Vilnia/Vilnius. As far as I am aware my father never set foot in either Poland or Lithuania, if he did, it would not have been until he entered Politics. LettyBIRD (talk) 01:10, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Apartheid vs. Black Nationalism

I thought balance would be the better term, as it wanted to see about a "middle road" between the two. A liberal counterbalance to both. I don't like "reflected aspects of"; could you suggest a better wording? michael ^talk 12:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I have edited to improve the characterization. The Federation was only liberal relative to a less liberal immediate past and to apartheid regression in South Africa. But is was not liberal in any normal 20th century sense of the term, which required one-person one-vote. It was conservative, seeking a "middle road" between reactionary apartheid and a fully liberal structure (such as was advocated by the tiny Liberal Party of South Africa). Chris Lowe (talk) 03:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"liberal in any normal 20th century sense of the term" What was considered liberal in 1947 would not be in 1960, let alone 1970 or 1990! I would suggest that it was liberal at the time it was founded, but that political culture in Britian (and the the rest of western world) changed. Remember that until the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Segregation was legal in the US Simarliy the UK waited until the Race Relations Act of 1968 to make "no coloreds" signs illegal. People forget how recently these changes in attitude have happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 57.67.164.37 (talk) 13:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll find the quoe later// Welensky advocated 'partnership'. He believed that the federation need to make money, with this money he ionvested heavily in schools, hospitals and roads. More, much more than the British ever did. He believed in advancing Africans, he believed in the same pay for the same job, white or black. He opposed black nationalism because he saw it as a trojan horse for communism. The black leaders were a tiny minority of the greater population, a tiny minority who had received western education, he believed that they wanted the power and wealth just for themselves, that education would be denied to the black masses. How can there be a proper country when there had been hardly a single black professional - medicine, higher education, law - or major businessmen? As FPM only black people were hired to many levels of government jobs and the they were mentored to advance in the service.

History shows he was correct. The black elite used the idea of freedom to trick villagers in mud huts, living an iron age way of life. They were led to believe that freedom would mean sudden wealth. It did not, it meant the thieving of the nations resources. Was it wrong to go there, to colonise? Yes he said...but to suddenly leave, to have introduced these people into the greater world and just go, leaving them in the hands of this little thieving elite, without education or freedom from superstition. This was also wrong. It was Britain that was the betrayer, in order to cut it's costs, because it was afraid of the accusation of 'colonialism' as an evil. 78.146.190.228 (talk) 22:12, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

NAC

Nyasaland's inclusion in the federation was never a goal of its proponents, it was there primarily because it was not economically viable by itself.

Too many its; could someone explain which proponents, and what was not economically viable (either the rest of the Federation without Malawi's labor force; or Malawi without the employers in the Rhodesias?). I would copyedit, but I don't understand the intention here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Religion

In the infobox currently, Welensky's religion is given as Judaism, and he is currently categorised in Category:Zimbabwean Jews and Category:Jewish politicians. Is this accurate? Given that only his father was Jewish (he is quoted as saying he is "half Jewish, half Afrikaner") he would not be considered Jewish himself unless he was a practising Jew and/or converted to Judaism. The Celestial City (talk) 02:05, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

My father was a practicing Jew, he prayed twice a day, everyday right up until his death. His children however were all brought up as Christians --LettyBIRD (talk) 18:29, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I forgot to say my grandmother converted to Judaism before marrying my grandfather so I think that makes him fully Jewish.LettyBIRD (talk) 01:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Railways

Lettybird,

I'm sure that I recall that Sir Roy Welensky had a lifelong interest in railways and was a long term member of the Mashonaland Model Engineering Society.

There doesn't seem to be anybody alive who can recall his model engineering interest in Dorset.

Could you comment?AT Kunene (talk) 10:30, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, my father was very interested in railways - having worked on them as a young man, he had a model engine on his desk at all times. I am afraid I don't recall his taking part in any model engineering during his time in Dorset - he was very infirm for the last ten years or so of his life. I remember people with an interest in trains used to come visit him from time to time, but I am afraid teenage girls don't take much interest in this things, so I didn't register much of what was said.LettyBIRD (talk) 01:05, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Nationality categories

Is it accurate to have all these categories indicating he was "Zimbabwean"?? He left after Mugabe took power and had said he would never live under majority black rule. He was Rhodesian and maybe British but to label him as "Zimbabwean" is counter-intuitive. Quis separabit? 19:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I think "Zimbabwean exiles" is not inaccurate. The others, "Zimbabwean Jews, Zimbabwean people of Dutch descent and Zimbabwean people of Lithuanian descent" are catch-all categories that also include Rhodesians, whether "Rhodesian" is defined as somebody pre-1980 or simply as somebody who thinks of himself as such. I don't think it's that big a deal myself. It is not a comment, negative or otherwise, on Welensky or any of the other people in the categories. —Cliftonian (talk) 20:41, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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FAR

This article suffers from similar problems as Ian Smith, which is going to be delisted. Heavy use of the subject's memoirs in the footnotes mean that it cannot pass the guideline in WP:RS: "Use of self-sourced material should be de minimis; the great majority of any article must be drawn from independent sources." and also fail the FA criteria on being well-researched and NPOV. If improvements are not forthcoming this will have to be taken to Featured article review. buidhe 06:02, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Hammarskjoeld

"However, Hammarskjöld's plane was shot down from Rhodesian territory close to Ndola in November 1961, and he was killed."

Hammarskjoeld died. That his plane was shot down from Rhodesian territory has not been established. 178.84.255.141 (talk) 08:33, 13 October 2023 (UTC)