Talk:Ruben Vardanyan (politician)

Much dubious content in this article

Was this article lifted unaltered from a press release written by his office? Most of the content was added by a single editor who has worked on nothing else. Vardanyan is actually one of Armenia's "legal criminal" oligarchs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.184.0 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• There is a OCCRP investigation about Vardanyan and Troika Dialog: https://www.occrp.org/en/troikalaundromat/vast-offshore-network-moved-billions-with-help-from-major-russian-bank I think it should be added to the article. --Unreal79 (talk) 13:37, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

External links

Edwardx I find some removed [1] external links useful. There is data that is missing from the article. I deserves place here unless you add the essential information from the links in the article. Watti Renew (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

ok these were not relevant. Watti Renew (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Advertorial Tag Removal

This article was improved considerably by me. All the advertorial materials have been removed from the article. If anyone wants to contest this action, please feel free to discuss here. Gluconuh (talk) 08:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

"Russian"

I've removed the descriptor of Ruben Vardanyan as "Russian" in the first sentence of the article since this is discouraged by MOS:ETHNICITY. He renounced his Russian citizenship. Regardless of his apparent reasons for doing so, this generally means that he should no longer be described as Russian. Furthermore, the term "Russian-Armenian" is itself problematic since hyphens can imply ethnicity-nationality, whereas we are only supposed to list nationalities. So, before he renounced his Russian citizenship, it would have been better to describe him as a "Russian and Armenian" politician/businessman, with the "and" replacing the hyphen. Now that he has renounced his Russian citizenship and acquired Artsakh citizenship (whilst retaining his Armenian citizenship), he should be described as "Armenian and Artsakh(i)". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Russia is mentioned numerous times throughout the body section of the article, but it isn't mentioned in the lead (except for in the nationality part that I removed), and it also isn't mentioned in the early life section (of course, it is possible that Vardanyan migrated to Russia as an adult). As it stands, Vardanyan's exact relationship with Russia is not very clear in the article, as the article just starts discussing Russia without clarifying the exact relationship. The article needs to be clarified so that we know exactly how Vardanyan is connected to Russia; for example, if he migrated to Russia at some point, then that information should be clearly explained. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

It does say that he graduated from Moscow State University in the early life section, which is located in Russia. Immediately beforehand, it says that he graduated from "Yerevan School No. 35", which is in Armenia, in 1985. So, using my detective skills, I suspect that Vardanyan immigrated to Russia in 1985. This information should be obvious, but it is not directly stated in the article even though it's implied (by the fact that he was originally in Armenia and then suddenly teleported into Russia). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:16, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Note: At the time (1985), Russia and Armenia were both parts of the Soviet Union, so it wouldn't have been very difficult for Vardanyan to immigrate from Armenia to Russia at the time. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Article name

I can see in the history of this article that it was renamed to "Ruben Vardanyan (politician)" on November 4, 2022. Subsequently, it was reverted back to "Ruben Vardanyan (businessman)" on January 18, 2023‎, with no explanation.

In my view, the new title is perfectly acceptable, and I can't see anything particularly wrong with it. I support moving the article to "Ruben Vardanyan (politician)". Currently, Ruben Vardanyan is a politician, even though he has only been one for a brief period of time (from what I can tell). His political position is very important in the relative part of the world in which he is currently located, so it certainly satisfies the NOTABILITY requirements. His business ventures are also important, but his political position seems to be more important than his business ventures. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:27, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Article seems heavily astroturfed

All references to this guy being a Russian oligarch close to Putin who was sanctioned seem to have dissapeared, or the fact that he is suspected of being a russian agent sent to stepanakert to preserve Russian interests from the inside. Along with corruption he has been accused of. Article ready like a fluff piece of a philanthropist with the heart of gold type shtick. Midgetman433 (talk) 03:14, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Oligarch or Philantropist

Hi @Kevo327. You removed "Oligarch part" from the article and added "Philantropist". And left a message: "most WP:RS describe him as philanthropist or businessman, ad sources". I restored former sources which includes Financial Times. And added more sources. I hope we are not going to discuss whether Jamestown, Politico, Foreign Policy, BBC, Washington Post are reliable or not. Simple Google search let's you to find lot's of reliable articles about Vardanyan being Oligarch. I can add more sources if 13 is not enough to persuade you.

For now I kept the "Philantropist" part to have a discussion first. You could also do the same btw. I don't think we should keep Philantropist word there. Most oligarchs do such things in order to white wash their reputation. He was also part of Troika Laundromat. He's close person to Putin and even nicknamed "Putin's wallet".[2][3][4] Aredoros87 (talk) 15:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm removing the "Philanthropist" part due to the no response from Kevo32 (the user was blocked indefinitely). Aredoros87 (talk) 11:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Biased and outdated content

I would like to flag that this article is overly negative in tone and comes across as very biased against Mr Vardanyan. The article has no reference to the calls for Mr Vardanyan's release from prominent public figures such as Henrikh Mikhitaryan. Furthermore, assertions that he maintains 'close ties' to Vladimir Putin are at least out of date, if not slanderous, considering Mr Vardanyan's renouncement of his Russian citizenship. Timb1976 (talk) 15:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

This was reported in multiple sources, in Armenia, Azerbaijan and internationally. The article does not claim it as a fact, it says that this is what some sources report. The calls for release could be mentioned, with attribution. Grandmaster 07:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

POV edits

@Shinadamina, your edits are very concerning. You deleted official charge 2 times[1][2] and put "political prisoner" term with terrible sources (Armenian state channel and ArmenianWeekly). Moreover, you deleted Putin's relationship with Vardanyan under the edit summary "Ref bombing cleanup".[3]. Aredoros87 (talk) 19:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, based on your edit history, you seem to have a strong bias towards Turkish and Azerbaijani subjects, so perhaps it is a COI. I don't mind that you bring this up for discussion because we need the article to be neutral per WP:POV and I found that the article is lump sided. Using the words "political prisoner" comes from several sources and is more neutral than calling him a Terrorist.

Vadanyan has been referred to as a political prisoner in both US Congress and UK Parliament:

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/volume-170/issue-98/senate-section/article/S4011-2

https://www.markey.senate.gov/news/press-releases/senators-markey-and-cassidy-urge-state-department-to-help-secure-release-of-political-prisoners-held-by-azerbaijan

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2024-03-19/debates/667E701E-BF59-41AF-AB5C-624F772EA4BC/Nagorno-KarabakhArmenianRefugees

The fact is that he is illegally detained in violation of international laws (according to several sources).

According to US Congress:

"These eight former officials have been held in pretrial detention for more than 8 months. And just last month, Azerbaijani authorities extended the detention with another 5 months--without a trial, without due process--and Azerbaijan has routinely resorted to hostage diplomacy, prolonging unlawful detention and using prisoners of war as bargaining chips to impose its demands on Armenia, in clear violation of international law." Shinadamina (talk) 08:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

you seem to have a strong bias towards Turkish and Azerbaijani subjects, so perhaps it is a COI. this is not the way editors talk to each other here. Take a look on WP:ASG. Please keep it WP:CIVIL and refrain from attacking unless you have something to show on WP:COI/N.

...is more neutral than calling him a Terrorist no idea where does this come from.

Vadanyan has been referred to as a political prisoner in both US Congress and UK Parliament this is utterly false. US Congress didn't adopt any resolution or anything. It's an opinion by two senators. They do not represent the entire congress. The same thing goes for the UK Parliament as well. It's one personal opinion.

You restored the non-WP:RS sources[1]. One of them belongs to the government of Armenia, while the other one belongs to ARF. Alongside the sources, you restored the edit which breaks MOS:LEAD and WP:PEACOCK.

And lastly, do you care to explain your secret removal of Putin's relationship to Vardanyan under the edit summary "Ref bombing cleanup"? Aredoros87 (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

There are many additional sources that call Vardanyan and the others that are being held as "Political Prisoners." Please check:

https://www.barrons.com/news/rights-of-detained-ex-karabakh-leader-must-be-respected-un-22f12b71

https://en.aravot.am/2024/04/25/346342/

https://news.am/eng/news/818739.html

https://ancuk.org.uk/anc-uk-newsletter-april-2024/

https://asbarez.com/ruben-vardanyan-was-tortured-in-baku-prison-legal-team-says/

https://zartonkmedia.com/2024/04/20/prompted-by-international-pressure-ruben-vardanyan-finally-allowed-phone-call-with-family-reveals-he-is-in-complete-isolation-his-health-is-deteriorating/

Regarding all other edits related to Puttin, they did not comply with POV and represented the subject in a negative way. Some of the sources were low quality and also we need multiple sources for any controversial edits per WP:EXCEPTIONAL we would need multiple high quality sources. Shinadamina (talk) 02:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The first source does not call Vardanyan a political prisoner. It discuses a call from the UN officials to respect the rights of Vardanyan in detention. The rest are not reliable third party sources. Grandmaster 13:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

@Grandmaster please note that Aredoros87 previously had a 3-month block on editing Azeri/Armenia related pages. This is more proof that he may have a bias and his opinions should not be considered valid.

The term political prisoner in regards to the subject has been used in the US Congress and UK Parliament per 3 sources I posted in my initial response.

It is also unreasonable to dismiss every source I provided as unreliable. Specifically, news.am and Asbarez (US-based) are highly credible and well-known for news websites. Both have Wikipedia pages, indicating their established reputations and are not blogs.

And here are more sources calling him a Political Prisoner:

https://euro.dayfr.com/world/2306285.html

https://www.jurist.org/news/2024/06/former-nagorno-karabakh-officials-legal-team-claims-azerbaijan-tortured-client/

https://iravaban.net/en/481606.html

https://armenianweekly.com/2024/04/26/ruben-vardanyan-granted-permission-to-speak-with-family-who-plea-for-end-to-his-hunger-strike/ Shinadamina (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

1. The 1st link doesn't call him "political prisoner". Please stop putting random links.
2. aravot.am, news.am are Yerevan-based news agencies.
3. ancuk.org.uk belongs to Armenian National Commitee (diaspora) of UK ultimately ARF
4. Ashbarez belongs to ARF aswell
5. Zartonik belongs to Armenian Diaspora in US. And it's a WP:PARTISAN website.[1][2]

This's the 2nd time you bring up ARF outlets. None of them is a WP:RS source in WP:GS/AA scope. Reliable sources are Financial Times, Guardian, Washington Post etc. which has been used in the article.

Some of the sources were low quality which one for example?

Do you plan to explain your restoration of the edit which breaks MOS:LEAD and WP:PEACOCK -- which I mentioned above? Aredoros87 (talk) 21:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@Aredoros87 I responded to all your concerns at the Request for Enforcement forum. The issue with Political Prisoner was also further explained there. It does not take a genius to figure out when someone is arrested for a war crime, he is a political prisoner. I gave you 10 citations from publications and 3 more transcripts from US Congress and UK Parliament calling him "Political Prisoner."

Yes I agree some of those sources could be unreliable, however as I stated before It is also unreasonable to dismiss every source I provided as unreliable. Specifically, news.am and Asbarez (US-based) are highly credible and well-known for news websites. Both have Wikipedia pages, indicating their established reputations and are not blogs. In addition Armenian Weekly is also a reliable publication. This one also has a wiki page. The fact that the US Congress and Uk Parliament have discussed it and called him a Political Prisoner, can also be used as a valid citation.

The examples of unreliable sources which I removed are:

https://jamestown.org/program/azerbaijan-grows-wary-of-russian-oligarch-vardanyans-true-intentions-in-karabakh/ It is a conservative defense policy thinktank according to its Wiki page, and can be considered biased to certain subjects

https://townhall.com/columnists/wesmartin/2023/01/08/is-putin-preparing-to-replace-armenias-pro-democracy-prime-minister-with-his-own-un-elected-oligarch-n2618021 it's American conservative website, according to its Wiki page and can be considered biased towards some subjects.

https://roscongress.org/speakers/vardanyan-ruben/biography/ - this is a bio page and not acceptable as a citation

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/analysis-opinion/1696069350-russia-s-vladimir-putin-s-wallet-who-is-ruben-vardanyan-analysis - Israeli publication and biased. As we know Israel provided arms to Azerbaijan and is their supporter, so we can't consider any Israeli publication to write unbiased articles about Armenian subjects.

Some other references were removed because of REFBOMB issues. If there is anything I removed that you think should not have been removed, please feel free to post here for discussion.

Regarding MOS:LEAD, it was not me that inserted the info initially, but when you removed it, I restored it because I found the info to be relevant. If there is any issue why you think the info should not be in the intro, please post your explanation.

Keep in mind that you were previously banned for three months from editing Azeri/Armenian topics, and your edit history indicates a bias towards Azeri and Turkish subjects. I hope you can approach this subject impartially, but I if see any further issues with your edits, I will report you to the enforcement forum. Shinadamina (talk) 08:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

news.am and Asbarez are not third party sources. They are not reliable for the claims that you made in the article. Also, most of the sources that you provided simply report the opinion of Vardanyan's lawyers. The opinions cannot be presented as facts, in particular when they clearly have a conflict of interest. It is not universally accepted to call Vardanyan a political prisoner. No serious international organization does it. Statements of individual politicians are not reliable sources in this context. They can only be used to present the opinions of those politicians, if those politicians are notable, but not for statements of facts. In addition, you cannot remove the charges made against Vardanyan. We must inform the reader what exactly he is being accused of. Whether those charges are true or not is not up to us to decide. Our task is to present all the available information in a neutral fashion. Grandmaster 08:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)