Talk:Rupununi uprising

Missing some crucial info

As someone who knows very little about the history of Guyana, I noticed that there is some important information missing from this article-namely anything pertaining to the rebels. Who were they, where did they come from, and what did they hope to achieve? Dpenn89 (talk) 04:42, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

"Reclamation Zone"

@ZiaLater: I fear that the current wording of what Venezuela described as "the Reclamation Zone" is contrary to WP:ALLEGED and might not be very neutral. The Geneva Agreement of 1966 recognizes that there is a territorial dispute between Venezuela and Guyana. If you wish, I think that the alternate wording of the disputed terrritory of Essequibo, or simply the disputed terrritory or just "Essequibo" could be used. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:30, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jamez42: The rationale for accepting them as Venezuelan citizens by birth is due to their birthplace being in what Venezuela describes as "the Reclamation Zone". This is a specific title that Venezuela uses for the territory, not "disputed territory" or anything else because they truly recognized it as being Venezuelan land. Describing it as something else would take away from Venezuela's rationale for recognizing them as Venezuelan's by birth.----ZiaLater (talk) 06:50, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Venezuela's involvement

@NoonIcarus: You inaccurately say in your edit summary that there are "No independent sources" when the New York Times says that Venezuela was accused of being involved while Harold Eugene Davis and Pedro González say that Venezuela was involved. Can you explain why you keep removing this material and other details about the rebels? WMrapids (talk) 03:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@WMrapids: When I mention that there aren't "independent sources", I mean that the only one to claim this has been the Guyanese government. All other sources cite them about this claim, and should not be added with an editorial voice as such. It should be noted that Forbes Burnham was a particularly authoritarian leader, so that should be another reason to beware of the government's claims. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

In page 190 of Eugene's source, it says her sponsoring of a secessionist movement in the Rupununi region of Guyana, but later on in page 196 it goes on to say Guyana faced a secessionist movement in the Rupununi area that she claimed was aided and abetted by the Venezuelan authorities (italics added). There should definitely be better sourcing for this before, say, adding Venezuela as a supporter in the infobox. I will review González' source when I have the time, but if you could argue this further it would be helpful. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

This has since been addressed in my most recent edit.--WMrapids (talk) 16:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Recent issues

Valerie Hart's family is irrelevant to the rebellion. It doesn't matter if they were wealthy or American, only if some of them participated in the uprising. Said information is already included in Hart's main article.

Additionally, the number of casualties has been in the article for over a decade. It should not be removed so simply, and better sources should be looked for instead. NoonIcarus (talk) 13:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, you are making "stable" claims. The previous claim of casualties was not verified. A different source has been provided and verified. WMrapids (talk) 16:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

You have cited WP:SOURCEACCESS in the past. Just because the claim is not available only now doesn't mean it wasn't available when it was first added, and that's something that can be verified with another version of the book. You're removing a specific point of view from the article, leaving only one and contrary to a neutral point of view. --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@WMrapids: Could you please explain why do you believe En El Tapete to be an unreliable source? --NoonIcarus (talk) 14:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Because it is a website published in a blog format. WMrapids (talk) 16:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

No it isn't? At any rate, Manuel Felipe Sierra is a journalist and political scientist that can be easily cited in the article. --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm also seeing that the statement "After the uprising, Venezuela President Rafael Caldera and Burnham were alarmed at the uprising and vowed to focus their attentions on the issue of the territorial dispute between their two countries", appropriately sourced, has been renamed several times to the weasely "Concerns related to the incident from both Guyana and Venezuela led to the Port of Spain Protocol of June 1970" — Preceding unsigned comment added by NoonIcarus (talk • contribs)

@NoonIcarus: I'll go through the sources that you provided, but if you are accusing me of blanking information, then you are obviously doing the same. Please stop.--WMrapids (talk) 18:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

In the warnings I have left you I have not included the removals based on due weight, which includes way more removals. We both have cited content removals based on this, and we both agree on WP:ONUS, as far as I know. The other removals have included appropriately sourced content, which is not reliant on a single reference (which I just found out that also includes the Venezuelan minister rejection of the involvement accusations, although I can imagine this was unintentional), and you have insisted on them, which is disruptive.

If you agree that blanking is wrong, please avoid doing it, or at least insisting on it. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:00, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok, an explanation of my most recent edit. First, opposition politician Jai Narine Singh was literally a paid CIA asset at the time to oppose the government, so we definitely need to take their opinion with a grain of salt. Ishmael and Singh also did not mention any death numbers, the majority of the "atrocity" accusations and death numbers come from the now-defunct Pan-Tribal Confederacy of Indigenous Tribal Nations, an indigenous activist organization that is (suspiciously) registered in Barbados. The Pan-Tribal Confederacy of Indigenous Tribal Nations was a self-declared nation led by Damon Gerard Corrie that attempted to occupy Culpepper Island.[1] Described as a "Lokono Hereditary Chief", Corrie has collaborated with the Venezuelan government, including holding presentations at their embassy in Barbados.[2] This seems to be a conflict of interest regarding positions on a topic disputed by Venezuela and a self-described "confederacy" is hardly a reliable source for controversial information such as killings.--WMrapids (talk) 23:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Once again, this appears to focus mostly on personal characteristics, but not on substance. This is even more important given that these allegations have been covered by multiple sources, including the aforementioned Manuel Felipe Sierra. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@WMrapids:: In the past you have expressed that overrelliance on a single source should be avoided in articles. Yet, you have added content heavily reliant on Guyanese diplomat Odeen Ishmael, with 36 footnotes (over 43 times before I started fixes in the last version). Since at the same time I have personally opposed ad hominem arguments, I want to avoid them, but I do have to point out that there's a conflict of interest in the source since the subject has worked with the Guyanese government, and this definitely affects reliability. I have added the respective inline tags in these cases, seeking to avoid them in non-controversial statements. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:08, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@NoonIcarus: I can agree to limiting some of this, though you have been introducing fringe material and citing a Venezuelan military officer for the article, a conflict of interest itself. You are also removing scholarly sources that explicitly say that Venezuela was involved. Please stop. WMrapids (talk) 21:11, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@WMrapids: Thank you for your openness to changes. I have to point out that since this has been cited by at least Jai Narine Singh, the Pan-Tribal Confederacy of Indigenous Tribal Nations and Manuel Felipe Sierra, so it's clearly not fringe material

I have also not removed the allegations of Venezuelan involvement. The details, from the planes and the transport to the training, are all in there. There are only a few claims that require better sourcing per WP:EXCEPTIONAL, such as the claim that Leoni did not want to transfer power to Caldera, which is just baffling. Leoni famously opposed expanding the presidential term length and responded in an interview, responding if anyone proposed to him to commit fraud, that "No one advised me to do so, nor would I have allowed it. In Venezuela so much progress has been made in the democratic field that not even our most irreconcilable enemies suggested it to me." --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:22, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I’m okay with excluding Leoni. However regarding the number of deaths and injuries, those explicitly came from the fringe source. You also removed the previous tensions between Guyana and Venezuela that academic sources say contributed to the crisis. I'll take a look when I have a chance. WMrapids (talk) 21:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

As I mentioned, the reasons provided are not ones to consider the source as fringe, and several other sources mention this as well. However, given that Venezuela is currently not included in the infobox, it might be consistent with the format to avoid it and a good compromise.

Regarding the section, I mentioned the reasons above. The sources do not mention the Rupununi uprising unless they're about a general history about Guyana-Venezuela relations. The current phrasing suggests that the uprising was just a continuation to Venezuelan pressure, which is heavily disputed. --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:08, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

The sources directly relate Venezuela's involvement and pressure to the rebellion. Not sure what you are missing in the sources. WMrapids (talk) 05:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Guyana–Venezuela relations

The previous Guyana–Venezuela relations section consisted in a lots of SYNTH that mentioned the Esequibo territorial dispute and tensions between the Guyanese and Venezuelan governments. Venezuelan involvement in the uprising is disputed, and at any rate the sources included do not mention the Rupununi uprising. NoonIcarus (talk) 12:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

If you are saying "the sources included do not mention the Rupununi uprising", you must have missed something in multiple sources or did not read through them. Each source discusses the rebellion within the historical context of the Guyana and Venezuela territorial dispute. Your claims of synthesis are inaccurate. WMrapids (talk) 18:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

@WMrapids: Hi. As an attempt to follow you last suggestions, I wanted to ping you before making any changes or reverting. I noticed that you restored the Guyana–Venezuela territorial dispute section again, which I have contested at least twice for the reasons provided here ([3][4]). Could you kindly consider restoring the previous version? Many thanks in advance. --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@NoonIcarus: Can we discuss specific issues first? We can collaborate on what to include or exclude from my edits and why. Such discussion can remain on this talk page to assist future users who may have similar concerns. WMrapids (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@WMrapids: Which specific issues can we discuss? The claims about Venezuelan involvement are covered in the declarations of Guyanese officials, as well as the context of the territorial dispute when rebel leaders visited Caracas. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:36, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

There are multiple independent sources that report Venezuela's support in their own voice without attributing the information to the Guyanese government. The sources also provide a background on the situation as well. WMrapids (talk) 01:25, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Most of the sources refer to the declarations of Guyanese authorities, and facts such as the Ankoko Island occupation are unrelated to this uprising. You're also virtually not making changes to address this since the last time you have tried to introduce this [5], despite of what I have commented here. Please stop. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

1. Most of the sources refer to the declarations of Guyanese authorities. This is simply false and this can be support by the quoted references below.
2. facts such as the Ankoko Island occupation are unrelated to this uprising. The sources discussed these incidents within the context of the uprising, making them related.
3. You're also virtually not making changes. I asked you days ago, which specific issues can we discuss? This is about collaborating through discussion, not forcing each other to make changes. We can change some of the wording if necessary, but these scholarly sources have independently said that Venezuela supported the uprising.

WMrapids (talk) 20:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Among other disputed changes, you're re-adding Venezuela to the Belligerents section in the infobox, whose opposition I have also commented here. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I added a disputed tag out of courtesy while we discuss this. WMrapids (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Venezuela in "support" for rebels in infobox

@WeatherWriter: I saw your edit here about adding "Support" in infoboxes. In a previous version of this article, Venezuela was present with an "(alleged)" tag present. It looks like a former user supported the inclusion of Venezuela in the infobox as well. In both instances, NoonIcarus has removed the "support" info from the infobox.(2020 removal, 2023 removals[6][7][8]) As shown in the article, multiples scholars and organizations explicitly say that Venezuela directly supported the rebels.

WeatherWriter, since only been NoonIcarus and I editing this article, I wanted to ask for your thoughts since you were previously involved in a similar discussion. Do you have any recommendations on this?--WMrapids (talk) 17:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Dispute on links to Venezuela

Independent academic sources, not only the Guyanese government, link Venezuela to the rebellion and provide background on Venezuela's actions to acquire the Essequibo (economic war and propaganda), all of which is presented by the sources in this version. NoonIcarus disagrees and has consistently removed information related to Venezuela's possible involvement in the rebellion to maintain this version. WMrapids (talk) 14:19, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I am declining your 3O request. Please discuss the issue on the talk page. If there's disruptive editing without discussion, I would take it to the appropriate noticeboard. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 02:26, 11 January 2024 (UTC)