Talk:Russians at War

Is it possible to watch the film?

If yes, then how? Thanks,   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

You asked on the talk page for the 'Russians at war' movie where you might be able to see it. I've deleted your question; article talk pages are intended for discussing article improvement, only. I say this without any snark - Google is the first stop. Second, the lede of the article states it premiered at the 81st Venice International Film Festival. Film festival entries are almost always shown before the film is released elsewhere. But you can probably visit the Venice festival website and learn more about where it may end up being shown - probably streamed, as it's unlikely to be a film that would earn anything at theaters (notwithstanding that documentaries almost never make it to theater release any more to begin with). cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 15:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

This is about improving the article. Editors can better frame edits if they view the media. Making blind edits without viewing the media is less helpful than actually have watched the media in question. In terms of searching the internet, that has been done and have come up empty. I feel like anastrophe wants to censor the subject.   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 16:35, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

No, you are incorrect. Editors editing the article based on viewing the movie would be presenting their own opinions. That's called original research. We go by what reliable sources have stated, not the judgements editors have made from viewing a movie personally. Removing the question has nothing to do with censorship; I'm baffled how you come to that conclusion. Asking if the movie can be viewed has nothing to do with directly discussing material improvements to the article, that's why I deleted it. Are you suggesting that the article should state that editors don't know if it's possible to watch the film? cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 17:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

No, you are incorrect. Editors are allowed to use wp:common sense. All the of the criticism is one sided. We have not heard from other sources and viewing the media may bring some common sense to the article.   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 21:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

More relevant is MOS:FILMPLOT. Most film plot (or synopsis) sections are written without references, i.e. with an implicit reference to the primary source: the film.

Also, distribution is an aspect we cover in film articles, so this was a perfectly fine and relevant question to ask. Nardog (talk) 23:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

It's a documentary, not a popular fiction movie. Common sense would generally suggest that if one searches the 'net and can't find any information about where to view a film that was just a few days ago submitted to a film festival, it's self-evident that it is not yet available for viewing outside of the film festival (where reliable sources - film critics - are often found). Using the talk page to ask questions about the topic of an article is generally 'frowned' upon. Quoting from WP:NOTAFORUM: In addition, bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article, nor are they a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. Material unsuitable for talk pages may be subject to removal per the talk page guidelines.

Simply asking Is it possible to watch the film? If yes, then how? offered no context for the query, and it, in itself, gave no clue as to intent or motive for asking the question. I do a lot of editing here, and I've run across too many instances of people pushing some general query about the topic of an article to the talk page, with no clear intent to improve the article (e.g. "Does salt water taffy have sea water in it?", things like that). It happens frequently, and often results in the question being summarily deleted per WP:NOTAFORUM. Perhaps next time, include the context for asking the question. As written, it looked like a random question that would be more suitable for a 'net search. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 00:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article

This isn't a general discussion about the subject of the article. I thought it would be obvious that knowing first hand about the subject, rather than relying on bias sources was a good thing.

it's self-evident that it is not yet available for viewing outside of the film festival

Irrelevant. When it becomes available then respond on the talk page. Also wikipedia editors are a smart bunch that have clever ways above what is visible in the first few pages of an internet search.

It's a documentary, not a popular fiction movie

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Film#Documentaries

Documentary films require a modified approach for their articles. Instead of a plot summary, a documentary article should have a synopsis that serves as an overview of the documentary. The synopsis should describe the on-screen events without interpretation, following the same guidelines that apply to a plot summary (see WP:FILMPLOT).

Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 16:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

"Critical" Response?

Much of the content in the "Critical Response" section seems to be political responses rather than film criticism. Should it be split up? Thrilway (talk) 18:15, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

That would make sense. Adebax (talk) 13:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Introductory paragraph requires amendment

I think we need to be less handwavy about the very serious allegations against the film - it's very dangerous to present it as a regular documentary film - which it is not. I propose an amended introduction to raise awareness of controversy early on:

Russians at War is a 2024 documentary film directed by Russian-Canadian cinematographer Anastasia Trofimova, which has been widely criticized as Russian propaganda. The Canadian and Ontario government-funded film focuses on the perspective of Russian soldiers invading Ukraine during the ongoing 2014 Russian-Ukrainian war. It premiered at the 81st Venice International Film Festival.

OR

Russians at War is a 2024 documentary film directed by Russian-Canadian cinematographer Anastasia Trofimova. The Canadian and Ontario government-funded film focuses on the perspective of Russian soldiers invading Ukraine during the ongoing 2014 Russian-Ukrainian war. It premiered at the 81st Venice International Film Festival, after which it was widely criticized as Russian propaganda.

Please amend ASAP! 0lida0 (talk) 13:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

This debate gets extremely polarised, just like in the palestine-israel conflict, where all intentions of seeing humans on the other side are critized. Many critiques haven't even seen the film, as it was written here in a former version, too. Adebax (talk) 13:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Your opinion about the poor misunderstood Russian soliders is irrelevant to topic at hand. Introduction still needs amending to illustrate the significance of the controversy surrounding it - it would not have been this widely covered in media without widespread criticism that it is a thinly-veiled a Russian propaganda film. 0lida0 (talk) 14:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, no longer needs amending - thanks eds! 62.197.35.21 (talk) 14:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The following sentence is very awkward: "The film focuses on the anti-war perspective and thoughts about Russian-Ukrainian unity reflected by Russian soldiers fighting on the front lines in Ukraine and civilians burying their men during the Ukrainian-Russian war." Also, the director's own descriptions of the film don't suggest that it is focused on any of these things. Surely, this sentence deserves a citation if there is any evidence to support it?

References

Worth adding another Russian voice

suggest including this paragraph:

Russian director Vitaly Mansky said that "it is quite obvious that the author is on the side of their heroes" and called the film's screening in Venice "a mistake by the festival." Mansky himself attempted to send a cameraman to film on the Russian side during the invasion, but his cameraman was promptly arrested.

0lida0 (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Hadn't watched

Greetings @UrbanVillager, you added During Ms. Bassel's press conference at the festival on September 4, 2024, she indicated that that she "hadn't watched the "Russians at War" yet" when she was making these comments - [1] , where the source says so? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

There are more issues with your edit. Mansky himself attempted to send a cameraman to film on the Russian side during the invasion, but his cameraman was promptly arrested. sourced to Все переругались из-за фильма «Русские на войне». Его сняли на российской стороне фронта и показали в Венеции Разбираемся с экспертами «Медузы» — военными аналитиками и Антоном Долиным, — как относиться к этой картине — Meduza - why was it removed? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The Ukrainian government sent a protest letter to the 81st Venice International Film Festival in August 2024, before the film's trailer (September 4) or the film itself (September 5) had been released - where's the source for that? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The film sparked backlash from some regional experts, Canadian politicians and the Ukrainian-Canadian community, who characterized it as "Russian propaganda." - why was it removed? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. The cited article in fact says that she made her comments after seeing the film. The cited article is directly contradicting this Wikipedia article in this regard. 104.158.225.146 (talk) 22:22, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Censorship by Wikipedia editor, possible WP:COI

Controversy removed from introduction, important quotes from Mansky and Garner removed. Who is editing this into a press release for Trofimova? Stoptheprop (talk) 22:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Toronto police said they made no safety recommendations

"In a statement to CBC, the Toronto Police Service said the decision to pause screenings was made independently by event organizers, and not based on any recommendation from Toronto Police." https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/russians-at-war-paused-1.7321915 Stoptheprop (talk) 00:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC)