Talk:Russo-Swedish War (1495–1497)

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Narva[edit]

I'm removing the picture of the Narva fortress, since Narva was neither a part of Sweden nor Russia at that period and was not involved in this war. 217.159.166.173 19:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Viipuri blast[edit]

Is Viipuri blast, 1495, really a part of this war, as suggested by Abakharev through a merge request. ?? Shilkanni 22:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that now User:Ghirlandajo has merged this blast to the 1496-99 war. I still do not understand how an incident, containing an attack, that took place in 1495, can be a part of a war 1496-99. Better reasons and more solid evidence than now given are needed. Shilkanni 17:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russia did not exist in 1495[edit]

Sorry? Russia? How could a non-existent nation participate in a war? You correctly refer to the belligerents as Muscovites in the text of the article, but not in the title. Ivan III was Grand Duke of Muscowy, not czar of all Russia (or "Rus", as it would have been known at the time).89.16.85.59 (talk) 21:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment is correct. I have changed the reference from "Russia" to "Moscow" meaning the Grand Duchy of Moscow. I have also added a link to the wikipedia-article on the Grand Duchy of Moscow which lasted until 1547 when the Grand Dukes started to refer to themselves as

@Nederlandse Leeuw: what is the common name for this? I only get 126 results on Google for "Muscovite-Swedish War". Otherwise will you also move Polish–Muscovite War (1605–1618)? I think such undiscussed moves are not ideal. Mellk (talk) 11:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I'm currently busy with something else, so it's okay to revert my move in the meantime. I may come back to this later. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I am happy to discuss when you are able to. I think Polish–Muscovite War (1605–1618) is titled as such due to WP:COMMONNAME. I also think there is some confusion about dates/naming. Our article Grand Duchy of Moscow covers up to 1547 and Tsardom of Russia covers from 1547. But this is just to simplify things, to split the periods of Russian history. 1547 simply refers to when Ivan IV took the title "tsar". In fact, it was "tsar of all Rus'" ("tsar vseya rusi"). Previously, it was just "grand prince" and "sovereign of all Rus'". Muscovy must be split somewhere otherwise we have one large article covering 1200s to 1700s. Different sources use different dates because this centralized state was formed from the late 1400s to early 1500s, for example Britannica goes with 1505 as an end date. Unfortunately our articles do not cover that period well. Other articles do this differently, for example for Sweden here we have History of Sweden (1523–1611), History of Sweden (1611–1648), Swedish Empire, Gustavian era etc. But I don't think it would make sense to move Russo-Swedish War (1788–1790) to Russo-Gustavian War (1788–1790). Mellk (talk) 12:23, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some also choose 1478 (the formal annexation of Novgorod) as the formation of the centralized state ("Russia")[1] for example. Mellk (talk) 12:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk These are all fair points. However, I must really focus on the article I'm writing now, which covers a war from about 100 years earlier: User:Nederlandse Leeuw/Great Troubles. If you're interested, you might be able to give me some tips? Such as good English-language scholarly sources? It's really, really complicated. There are some basic facts that everyone agrees on, such as the name for the war, and how long it lasted, but apart from that, sources provide only bits and pieces. If a source says "the Rus' princes defeated the Mongols", I still don't know who was fighting who. Similarly, if it says 'Tatar victory', that doesn't tell us which faction defeated which. There was a lot of infighting amongst the Mongols/Tatars and Rus' principalities alike. I'm struggling to visualise all that in the infobox. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:30, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will take a look when I have some time. Unfortunately I do not have a lot of free time at the moment. But looks interesting. Mellk (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]