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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved, no prejudice against individual discussions. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:11, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Query What is the rationale for standardizing on Sami instead of Sámi (or even Saami, which is what the Sámiráđđi uses on the English version of its website, although not consistently ... Sámi also appears on English pages)? I'm not opposed to standardizing, but I'm not convinced that it should be Sámi -=> Sami. Carter (talk) 12:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Reviewing the list, Sámi Grand Prix and Sámi University of Applied Sciences have the accent mark as part of their proper name in English. Even if the rest change to Sami, these should remain Sámi. Similarly, in Norway and Finland the Sámi Parliament use á in English; in Sweden, Sami (no accent) is used. Carter (talk) 13:07, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The last time this was discussed, the consensus was that each of these need to be addressed individually, because sources prefer one spelling over the other for particular ones. By default, we should stick with Sámi, since it's by far the preferred spelling in general in actually reliable sources, though both others are used more for certain specific topics, and certain sources/publishers prefer other spellings as defaults. When I mass-moved them (which, yes, was not wise) it was after looking into this a lot and choosing the most frequent rendering in high-quality, modern, English-language sources. And, yes, we should not change the spelling in any proper name. PS: Sami Assembly of 1917 itself may be appropriate, since Sámi wasn't the dominant spelling in English in 1917, making "Sámi Assembly of 1917" arguably an anachronism (but a counter-argument would be MOS:CONFORM, which we employ all the time to normalize spellings). — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 06:29, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I personally think all the articles should contain the spelling form 'Sami' in their titles instead of 'Sámi' or 'Saami' because I think that is the official English name, but I encourage anyone and especially users like SMcCandlish, Volum-ion (both of who claimed that either 'Sámi' or 'Saami' are correct but not 'Sami', and the former user who moved a couple of articles with the name 'Sami' in their titles to the name 'Sámi' in their titles on the 21st of December in 2018, and the latter user who listed 7 articles that user wanted moved at WP:RM/TR on the 7th of September in 2019), possibly Anthony Appleyard (who moved those 7 articles with the name 'Sami' in their titles to the name 'Sámi' in their titles 4 hours later per Volum-ion's request, only to move them back again 12 hours and 27 minutes after that, and then later moved the articles about the Sami languages with the name 'Sámi' in their titles to the name 'Sami' in their titles (Sámi languages, Akkala Sámi language, Kainuu Sámi language, Kemi Sámi language, Kildin Sámi language, Ter Sámi language) per my request at WP:RM/TR on the 12th of June in 2020), Rua (who reverted SMcCandlish's edits on the articles Lule Sami and Southern Sami, both on the 21st of Decemberin 2018, and then wrote 'No consensus for rename, WP:BRD' in their edit summary) and Swarm (who moved the articles Ume Sámi, Pite Sámi, Inari Sámi, Southern Sámi and Lule Sámi on the 22nd of December in 2018, and then wrote down 'Reverting contested page move (technical MOR request via AN' in their edit summary). See also the previous discussion here. -- PK2 (talk) 10:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's no such thing as "the official English name" of any language. There is no "office" or "official" who can issue one. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 21:30, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The difference between 'Sami' and 'Sámi' is likely merely a matter of the accent causing a problem for a typist using an English-mode typewriter or keyboard. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:12, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And redirects exist for a reason, so convenience really isn't a factor in the titling decision, or we would just ban all diacritics and other special characters. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 21:37, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I agree with Anthony Appleyard's observation. English often drops diacritical marks for convenience. As to PK2's assertion that Sami is the "official English name," I'd note that it does appear in Webster's Dictionary and the OED without an accent mark, but both sources also use Maori instead of Māori, which is the standard form on en.wiki. Also, the OED's definition seems to indicate a general preference for Lapp, which is clearly outdated. For ethnonyms, I think there should be a degree of deference towards the people being discussed as to things like this and if there is a preference for including the diacritical mark then it should be respected. The use of the form Sámi may be heavily influenced by Northern Sámi speakers (the largest Sámi language group), but it is the form that appears most commonly in English-language materials published by Sámi institutions. Carter (talk) 13:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, on "English often drops diacritical marks for convenience": Wikipedia is not among the lazy/jingoistic publishers who do that. We include diacritics when reliable sources indicate they properly belong there. In earlier discussions, however, it came out that in a few cases, various of these subjects (organizations, or specific groups of the peoples in question), use "Saami" or "Sami", not "Sámi", so one size does not fit all. (I see that Carter mentions a few examples above.) — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 21:34, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then what do you and other users think of the articles about Sami-related topics in other language-Wikipedias (besides Czech, English, Faroese, Irish, Hungarian, Kurdish, and Northern Sami) having a regular 'a' or an 'aa' digraph instead of an 'á' (an 'a' with an acute accent) in their titles and sentences (see also this previous discussion about the 'Maori' vs 'Māori' spelling debate for comparison; besides English and Maori, only the Chinese (Min Nan), Cornish, Fiji Hindi, Hawaiian, Ilocano, Indonesian, Italian, Old English, Samoan, Sardinian, Scots, Simple English, Tagalog, and Vietnamese Wikipedias' articles also have an 'ā' (an 'a' with a macron) in their titles and sentences about Maori-related topics instead of a regular 'a'), and why, seeing how Finland, Norway, Russia, and Sweden don't officially speak English, but have a number of fluent English-language speakers (especially Finland, Norway, and Sweden), and why did Rua revert your edits on the Lule Sami and Southern Sami articles on the 21st of December in 2018, and Swarm move the Ume Sámi, Pite Sámi, Inari Sámi, Southern Sámi and Lule Sámi articles back to the name 'Sami' in their titles, both without discussing these changes here first? -- PK2 (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly PK2, I'm not sure how other wikis (with the possible exception of Sámi ones) have handled this matters here. The discussion of Māori you've linked to appears to be more about the use of macrons in Māori words for that are also used in English as generic nouns, not proper names or ethnonyms; the cited example there is kōwhai vs. kowhai. For Sámi vs. Sami, I think standardizing on one is going to be difficult (or perhaps a fool's errand), but the question that should help decide it is "What do Sámi institutions, operating in English-speaking spaces, use?" In most cases, as noted above, Sámi dominates. In some cases, such as Sámi University of Applied Sciences, the accent mark is part of how the institution identifies itself in English. That should always be respected. Similarly, the Sámiráđđi uses Saami Council in English, Samerådet in Swedish, Saamelaisneuvosto in Finnish, and Cоюз Саамов in Russian ... I'd expect to see each of those forms used on the respective wiki. In cases that are less clear, such as the Árran Julevsáme Guovdásj, which shows it's name as Árran Lule Sami Centre, Árran Julevsámi Center, and Árran Julevsami Centre in different places, it might be a judgement call or an indication that the Lule Sámi version of the name should be used. Beyond the proper nouns, I'd say look at how Sámi institutions on their English-language pages, spell Sámi/Saami/Sami; the use of á is more common than a or aa. This leads me to believe that where things should be standardized, Sámi is better than Sami, and I believe that position aligns with WP:DGUIDE and MOS:DIACRITICS. Carter (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to add some information on the Maori vs Māori debate about certain generic words in English containing the macron as well as proper names or ethnonyms, but anyway I think both you and SMcCandlish have made some really good points about why you both think the article titles for Sami-related topics should use the form Sámi rather than Sami -- PK2 (talk) 10:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
