Talk:Sahaj Marg/Archive 5

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--- KEEPING TO ARTICLE DISCUSSION -----

Please let us keep the discussion to the Article and what should be in it. For those who want to promote Sahaj Marg, proposals can be made to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission at their site or in writing. For more in depth debate on the values of Sahaj Marg (spiritually and socially), please visit the many blogs on the WEB.

These are some:

• Inner Circle of SRCM-Eng
• Poxy SRCM
• The Desperate abhyasi web-site- Fr & Eng
• Mielk - A French Analysis- Fr. & Eng
• Le Shri Ram Chandra Mission Verolee-Fr
• Poxy SRCM
• SRCM=Danger Fr
• Le Sahaj Marg a Detruit Ma Famille
• Une analyse anthropologique
• Power to Speak

Let's keep this discussion on the "encyclopedic" value of the information presented. Sahaj Marg and its proponents make certain claims and there are others who make different claims. We can accomodate all or most if we try.

WIKIPEDIA POLICY

According to Wikipedia Policy, We can all question:

NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW (NPOV). If we who want all the information on Sahaj Marg to come out are not "neutral" then adherents to Sahaj Marg who are attempting, as they are asked, to be: "living dead", serfs, obedient to the point of "killing", not responsible for their lives and deaths, according to the Sahaj Marg material, can certainly be thought of as "not neutral" also!!

INCLUDE ONLY VERIFIABLE INFORMATION Statements of "GOD REALIZED" or that Sahaj Marg will make one "divine", or in touch with the "Divine" and many other such statements are "NOT VERIFIABLE". The only adherent to this system who has been verified by a panel of "arms length" members is Lalaji according to instructions by his Master. The panel stated that: Lalaji was a copy of his Master". So Lalaji can be said to be a copy of his Master and that statement is "verified" by an "arms length" panel. All the other statements of attainment through the Sahaj Marg meditation with a Master are "NOT VERIFIABLE"

NO ORIGINAL RESEARCHThis policy states only that published material should be from reputable Peer Review Journals and other such credible publishing houses. Of course, there are no verification body for "spirituality". Maybe: By their fruit you will know them, as attributed to Christ as quoted in the Bible. Publishing is now done on-line and many such on-line publishers are not necessarily credible. So if one source is questionned, then the other should also be. One authority, ie a published book, is not any more credible that another authority ie a published blog or on-line newspaper or on-line book.

AUTHORITY is what adherents to HOLY BOOKS (SOMETIMES EVEN WRITTEN BY THEMSELVES) want to claim, but as we all know, the claims made in HOLY BOOKS are not necessarily the TRUTH, but can be included in an Encyclopedia as "claims" or "Quotes", and as "fair use". Is is not because one claims to "represent God", or be the "special personality" that it is necessarily the TRUTH. And the claims of Sahaj Marg bringing one to the Divine or that the Master of Sahaj Marg is "divine" is also not necessarily the "concensual" truth and should only be added in an encyclopedia as a "claim" or a "quote".

Post below this point

Hi all...

Thank you for posting below this point...

--don 20:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

THE HOMOPHOBIA ISSUE - LETS DEAL WITH IT

This was my original post -

First of all, let me introduce myself. I am a 30 year old gay male who is also an abhyasi, though I use that term loosely. When I was about 21, I entered a wonderful 3 year long relationship with another male abhyasi, and this was obviously something we kept from anyone, considering the rampant homophobia in the Mission (this is a fact, lets face it).

However, things were going fine, when a female abhyasi who fancied my partner went directly to Master and said that she wanted to marry him, and Chariji without a word called my partner (we were in Chennai at the time) and instructed him to do the divine thing and marry the girl. He knew that the two of us were together of course, though he never addressed this to us.

The breakdown of life after that was immediate. The horror of it is something I will never want to relive and was the darkest period of life for me. When someone you love is 'instructed' by their guru to get married to someone they have no interest in, then you can only imagine not just the pain but also the confusion. However, my partner was so stressed out and had a family to protect (his mom and kid brother were also abhyasis) so he mindlessly went ahead and got married to the girl. I left India a few days prior unable to handle the stress.

Tell me all of you, does any of the above strike you as divine? To me, being a gay person is totally normal and part of who I am. I have no confusion about it. However, Chari did not approve and therefore I am single to this day and the one I love is in a marriage he wants out of. I haven't met him in five years and miss him every waking hour.

So, for those of you who defend Chari to the core, understand that Sahaj Marg is tolerant on its own terms. It has no respect for your individual rights or freedom. That may be fine in a spiritual sense, but considering the ruination of my life and the lead to absolute Godlessness in my life due to Chari's anti-gay stance, it just does not work.

Clark, we need to talk.

K

---

I cannot name these abhyasis obviously, nor do I want to point fingers at people though I must say, especially to people like Vivekdurai who seems articulate yet a little deranged, WAKE UP. There is no ONE SYSTEM. Find your own God within you, and if you look to someone other than yourself to tell you who your God is, you are in trouble.

That said, SRCM clearly violates many aspects of the UN Charter - however, expect the institution to flourish. There is one soul, Patrick Fleury, a member of the Mission and many other such preceptors, who have no qualms about flaunting their 'powers' or 'influence'. I wish these people much love and luck, and thanks for the memories!!

Let us discuss the SRCM policy on same sex issues. This has been a personal problem for me from day one in the Mission which is why I no longer actively practice.

61.14.10.196 13:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Kay

Reply to Kay...

Hi Kay..

Thanks for re-posting your message above...I have been trying to keep your point on the "Homosexuality" issue and as you notice, the "talk page" discussion and testimonials does not seem to satisfy one person who asked for "citation needed"...That could get rid of the other statement by "defenders" of the Mission also. So we would be left with the "speech" content. Unless we can find a statement in a "newspaper", a book or such "source" material that is acceptable to all. As per Wiki rules, uncited statements are not "protected".

I think that would be sufficient as an encyclopedia article .... If you have other suggestions, let me know....

I appreciate your courage and your input...

You can find much discussion about the UN Charter issue on the Blogs mentionned above, I will attempt to stick to the "encyclopedia" article here and not get into the "value" of Sahaj Marg as a "spiritual" path...

Don--don 19:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

To Shashwat pandey

Hi Shashwat pandey

Thanks for you input...anticipating your kind permission, I have rephrased your input with corrections in grammar, sentence and "subjectivity" (POV-point of view) so as to make it "encyclopedic" (as in a "dictionary") which is the rule at Wikipedia...

If you have any concerns or more changes, could we discuss them in the "discussion" page and then post to the article.

I hope you will agree with the "process" and that we can work together on this...

Thanks for your understanding...

P.S. Check the editing tools at the top of the "editing" page. There is a "signature tool" with a date ...(it is icon # 10 from the left)....the "Large A" gives your message a place in the "contents" at the top of the "discussion" section of the page....

Don --don 03:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply to 84.222.133.32

Hi 84.222.133.32

This is the last request for money with a specific purpose, a gift for the Master... So please do not state that the money collected is to assist others without proof. I have worked in the "charitable" sector and know how pools of money, once established, can be used to fund all sorts of "administrative" functions such as travel, lodging, conferences, etc...Chari has reprimanded the French SRCM for charging his "entourage" for attendance to seminars. Does this mean that the entourage is to attend the conferences "free of charge" or at the cost of the "general membership"?

As neither you or I know of the income and salaries of the Master, the houses for the Master and the income of the Master should be references from Financial documents before being stated in the article.

Here is the full post on the Desperate Abhyasi blog in Europe: (I translated the comments from French using Babelfish)

'Christian said...

Dear Sister / Brother:

“MASTER’S 81st BIRTHDAY GIFT”We have to announce, with Rev. Master’s permission of course something [read well the intro, bacause we don't know more at the end] He is going to offer to us on His 81st birthday which falls on the 24th of July, 2007.

A project is being developed and executed to give to all of us abhyasis.

"Master's 81st Birthday Gift" which will be available to all who wish [to pay 1200$] it on His 81st birthday at Tiruppur, India [first information]. In case you think this is our gift to the Master, please disabuse yourself of this thought, for it is His gift to us, which He assures us we can use again and again throughout our life. For the moment, that is all we are permitted to say, except that donors who donate USD 1,200 to the Sahaj Marg Spirituality Foundation will be the first recipients Please complete the attached SMSF (India) - Corpus Donation Form and include it with the donation remittance-

You may learn more about the Birthday Celebrations on the Mission’s web site End of request for money for the Master's "birthday"

The section is under the heading "TEACHINGS FROM THE SAHAJ MARG MATERIAL". The Chapter on "donations" is taken from the Salient Point of Sahaj Marg Series 3. If you add something to that, please state your status as an authority of Sahaj Marg and/or reference your statements to Chari, Babuji or an other authority. You have added your bias to the article with unproven and un-references statements. Discuss the issue here and then we can change it together.

On Homosexuality...read the statement above from a "ex-abhyasi". Because there is "one last gay" left in SRCM does not mean that now Chari thinks Homosexuality is "natural". The statement of the Master, the person with authority, is the standard. The pressure on Homosexuals to change or leave is written by the Master, not by the "serfs"... The "Natural" path should be "NATURAL", as in Nature where there is "homosexual" activity in at least 450 species of animals, according to current science. In sociology, there being a few Jews, gypsies, (or other targeted group) left in (pre-war) Germany does not mean that the Nazis did not persecute the Jews...You will have to prove that the (unsubstantiated) "Gays" in Sahaj Marg are not "pressured" by the statements of the Master...That could prove "interesting" to say the least. Maybe the Master should withdraw his statement.

We have already gone through that issue many times with similar "unsubstantiated" statement from other abhyasis. If there are no references to credible sources, then the statement from Chari is the standard for SRCM unless he has "recanted" his statement somewhere since...Please offer a statement from Chari that Homosexuality is not "un-natural", and we can add that in the article and that will end the debate and we can take it out of the "TEACHINGS" of the Masters of Sahaj Marg.

4d-don

Could we please begin to source the material in this article? Right now it is mostly unverifiable by other editors. -Will Beback · † · 22:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Will be Back

Hi Will be back...

I have sourced and referenced all or most of the material I edited. What is not referenced is the material that were entered by others (abhyasis) and that I finally left in so as to not debate the issues ad infinitum. If you want some specific reference without reading all the books and material I have read, I can research it in the books and speeches that are listed in the References. In some of the books, I already have the pages in my files and can add them in for the edits I entered...

For other "POV" and for much of the un-referenced material, the editors who made the entries made a few edits and then "left" and I just left them in. I can remove them if it is a problem for anyone although I generally do not take umbrage to most of them. They are not of major significance in the general teachings and general character of the Mission. The words in the books and the speeches are more "instructions" and those are the ones I entered.

The edits by un-authorized and un-read adherents, I cannot reference...I can remove them and then debate the issue with the editors (adherents). You will notice that most statements by 84.222.133.32 are POV and not verifiable but I have left some of them in and placed them in the "activities" section exept for the pension and salary of Chari which is just "not acceptable" without some financial documents, which I suspect the editor does not have as I have attempted to get them myself over the years.

Thanks for your input... Information sets us Free...

Don --don 19:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Message to Shashwat Pandey

Hi Shashwat...

I corrected your spelling in the activites and removed your "note" on Raja Yoga (Yama) after researching in these sites...If you have a reference that confirms your statement, please make it available to me...In future, please state your references so that other editors may check your statements easily.

http://www.yogavision.in/articles/displayarticle.aspx?id=334 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_yoga

Your post said:

Note:- According to the first principle of Raja Yoga (YAM) accepting donations/gifts etc is prohibitted.

Thanks for your input...

The truth will set us free...

Don--don 17:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Message to Don

Kindly check this refrence, The first step of Raja Yoga is Yama which means self restrain, and it includes not accepting any gift or donation, kindly refer to "Complete works of Swami Vivekananda" Vol.1 Raja Yoga Chapter -2 "The first step" the first line of this chapter itself says the accepting of gifts etc is against the teachings of Raja Yoga. See this link

http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_1/vol_1_frame.htm

Regards Shashwat

Reply to Shashwat

Hi Shashwat...

Nice work...

I will put it in the Teachings (First paragraph). You will notice that many other points such as the "austerities" (tapas) have also been removed from the Sahaj Marg practice and is specifically mentionned in their Public Relations material as a "selling point". Some claim that these two items are what kept Raja Yoga ( octave or eightfold path) a "caring, charitable, compassionate and loving" path rather than a "self-serving", un-caring, divisive, and accumulative business of Spirituality. But these are "POV" or Points of View and we can only put them in with "references" to other sources than "ourselves"...

Keep up the Good work...Information will set "ALL" FREE!!(Those who want to be free)

4d-don

Reply to Don

Hi Don kindly see this link

http://www.geocities.com/sha211_211/teachings.html

here i have proved that SRCM and its teachings are no-where related to what is called as Raja Yoga, they are just fooling people in the name of this absolute truth. Raja Yoga was proposed by Patanjali about 8000 yrs back and till date there are no addition or subtraction in this method, as this is the ultimate path, this path is realized by an enlighten person who was absolutely unselfish, and this is so accurate that no-one including SV RK Christ Buddha or anyone could add or subtract from this. All of the enlighten people have only said what was discovered by patanjali, this was present before patanjali and will be present even if all of humanity forgets it, like gravity, when people did not know it was present Newton just discovered it, same way this method was also discovered by patanjali, now selfish people are trying to claim it, but these fool don't understand they cannot invent truth, they are just fulfilling their selfish motive by fooling people, for those who seek to know the truth must realize this fact, a thousand fakes cannot deny one truth, also no-one can imitate nothing, there has to be one truth which can be found by the various Yoga as proposed by real enlighten people, for those who are in family life must follow teachings of Karma Yoga, and for those who are not involved in family can follow Raja Yoga, or Dhyan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga, No-one while living in a family taking everything possible from family and society should get involved in any such group, if one is taking from family it must be returned to the same object from where it is taken, no-one should go on taking love, comfort, all material needs etc from family and declare that they love Master and have surrendered to the mission and method, this is foolishness of highest degree, what is the need of loving a Master when you have a loving soul as your partner? There is no need to work for mission or method when you have family children and society to work for, we have taken so mush from these things and are not returning only because we have been fooled, all those who have started a group or an organization are just fooling people. We must be aware of these cults. Kindly read below as how SRCM is against Raja Yoga also as knowledge of what actually Raja Yoga is must be understood by all those who seek it. Like there is no modification in what gravity is similarly there cannot be modification of the truth.

Below is the abstract of what is said in that link.

This is the biggest lie of the system, it is no-where related to Raja Yoga which simply teaches meditate on the object that appeals you, here master is first made the object, replacing spouse, to be specific as most natural love is for the spouse and immediate family members, that is replaced by a living male master, women?s whose hearts are naturally soft and accepts only one man, are also told to accept master in their hearts, replacing husbands, thereby killing their family life.

Raja Yoga on the other hand is the most scientifically developed method of controlling the mind and there by achieving the goal of life while reaming in the world of Maya, the methods of SRCM is based on heart to heart transformation, which is a Sufi concept, and has nothing to do with the Veda's as such, not going into details of religion. The perfection and spiritual growth is again made a subjective phenomenon, and is compared amongst the adherents and with that of the master, Which in any concept of philosophy can easily be termed as stupid approach.

Raja Yoga as proposed by Patanjali about 8000 yrs ago in India, is a step by step method of attaining the highest elevation possible for human beings that is union with Bramh. it follows the eight steps namely:-

1. Yam:- Truthfulness non- taking of gifts, chastity (absent in SRCM)

2. Niyam:- Tapas, study(Veda) purity and fasting (absent in SRCM)

3. Asana:- various body postures (absent in SRCM)

4. Pratyahar:- non-attachment while fulfilling the duty of love.(absent in SRCM)

5. Pranayam:- Controlling the prana, which is essence of life, it can be controlled by controlling the breathing, the force which causes the lungs to move is prana, by controlling the breath we inturn control the prana i.e essence of life.(absent in SRCM)

6. Dhyan:- focusing the mind to any object (it can be an imaginary god, wife husband, father mother anyone). (absent in SRCM)

7.Dharana:- Focus on body, any part of body will do, mind is the best option because mind is the subject of meditation as well as object, thereby you are meditating on oneness, which is the only truth.(adavita)(absent in SRCM)

8.Samdhi:- enlightenment, when ether becomes one, love, lover and beloved become one.(beyond reach of SRCM)

Regards

Shashwat

Reply to Shashwat

Hi Shashwat..

Thanks for that clarification and your input...And thanks for using the discussion page... I will leave it here for all to see and read...

The truth will set us free...

4d-don...

Reply to Don

Also if you see the limbs of Yama they include Aprigrahan which means non-covetousness (Oxford dictionary definition of "covetousness" is "inordinately or wrongly desirous of wealth or possessions") But in SRCM we find that they want people to donate and buy book CD and attain functions etc, they are only the means to collect money and more money. To any sane person visiting a gathering to celebrate some-one birthday after paying, makes no sense, hence we see that mind control technique is also utilized in SRCM, so that people do not realize what they are subjected to, this is exerted in form of peer pressure, (called preceptor’s in SRCM terminology) No organization which is working for the development of people will apply mental pressure to make money for itself. kindly see definition of "cult" type organization to get more information on these topics.

Regards

Shashwat

Comments to Marathi

Hi Marathi Mulga

I believe you, and good for you that you benefited from SM and Chari.

To retain "charitable" status, non-profit organizations must show some "charity" work and most do. Having worked in the Charitable sector, I can also assert quite confidently, that the total of money gathered under the name of "donations" is not used for charity and that there are always opportunists who also benefit from any "pool of money", even in the churches and the Charities. And the questionnable morality of tactics of some charities, such as placing the word "donation" on meal receipts or other purchase or service receipts are sometime used. So the testimonial of one person does not prove or disprove anything without financial documents. They are only POV and "anecdotal". We can only decide on the "charitable" status of a "society" with the financial report.

Usually, where there is controversy in charities it is in the realm of "expenses" (free food, free services, travel, lodging, etc..) covered for the "management team" or for the "insiders" and not for the "general membership" exept for a few "tokens" so as to keep the "charitable" status.

Wether this is in accord with Raja Yoga is another matter. Shashwat has shown with references that Raja Yoga, at least some Raja Yoga, does not allow the taking of gifts. So Sahaj Marg should be specific as to which "branch" of Raja Yoga it is a "remodelling".

Don --don 21:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

== Reply to Marathi ==

Tnx for the mail, i sincerely hope that u will also ultimately realize ur true nature in coming time, we all have infinite life's before us and there is no harm in trying out different methods. I do not expect any intellectual discussion from any member of SRCM as intelligence is the first thing that is destroyed in SRCM and people are converted into unthinking masses same as animals, therefore question of any intellectual debate does not arise in case of SRCM, as evidence u can see response on my orkut scraps all have stated that they cannot discuss SRCM, because they really cannot.

Practice has nothing to do with Patanjali what he stated in form of 198 words not more not less SRCM has nothing to do with that, since Raja Yoga is the most accurate method of realization therefore this name is used as a selling point, don’t u think u must know what is Raja Yoga in case some-one is selling their version of Raja Yoga? Once u know what RY is u will immediately renounce SRCM, as it is just fooling u in by using the name of RY, but they do not allow anyone else to use sahaj marg they even file court cases to prove that sahaj marg is invented by them and use name of Raja Yoga freely, this is another deception, I hope u will realize this truth soon,

unfortunately u think that u found love in this organization can u inform urself why u could not find same love in ur family? Or in ur society? Are those people bad ? u r made to understand that u can find love only in this organization and this is a tool to keep people stuck to this group. Incase u find love in ur family u need no organization to love, this is another deception, u have developed a new relation as Abhyasi, and lost contact with the Son, Husband, Father, brother or friend, this is very painful to those who expect complete u, what being an abhyasi u have gained only u can find, u will find all that u r looking for is already in ur own home all bliss is there at the feet’s of ur parents, but since u r told that bliss is not there but in organization hence u r saying so, only if u could have seen that bliss in ur home u would not have needed any organization as such. U have received nothing from anyone, u already have everything, u r just fooled that anyone can give u something, don’t be a fool and realize ur true nature, u need no-one, just those souls around you are enough to make u understand who u r. no Chari can help as much as ur spouse can, understand this.

Who paid for ur travel ? did u reach manipakkam for free? 

I will be surprised incase u tell me that u have no books or CD or anything like that. Incase u visited Raipur didn’t u paid 300 Rs ? what are these for? Why do u need to go to ashram when u already have a ashram in ur home, all people there are God more u go outwards more away u will be moving from urself, and there is no gain but only loss these functions are just advertisement stunts to promote SRCM, why don’t u feel the celebration with ur family? Why u run here and there searching for bliss when it is there right in ur heart? What good can u get by ignoring ur self? Iif pressure is not applied then why people are made to understand that mission needs growth? Why? If it was possible that any good could have been done to the world do u thing world today could have been in this shape? Do u think there have been no good people in past? Why is it that people kill people even today? Why there is cheating why is there deception have enlightened people not visited earth before? Those who have, have stated clearly that there is no cure to the pain of this world, pain and pleasure are basically same object just manifested at various degree, world will move on no-matter what, nothing will cure this world all will pay price of their deeds as SRCM is paying currently. U r just fooled nothing more then that and here u have an opportunity to become free and feel the bliss of freedom, no slavery can help, only freedom will make u understand ur true nature and not slavery.

What is the need of a family within a family? This is clear at the beginning, u r first made to understand that SRCM is something like a family and u must contribute to its growth, why u don’t contribute to growth of ur own family? Why u need a family other then what Lord has offered you? Don’t u see the deception here? Don’t u see the mind controlling tactics applied here? Don’t u already have a family that u are induced into another family? Is this not a cultic behavior ? Understand this dear, and make urself free.

Yours in the lord

Shashwat

To Shashwat...

I guess you know that when editors (journeyers, searchers and re-searchers)come to any site on Wiki, most have an "agenda". Some are religious, some are nationalist, and some are just plain into "money" and power as in the Tourism Industry and the Chambers of Commerce who organize "Promotion" Projects for their "sectors" who will then develop markets for the "Mother" or "Father" country.

Not too many come here with a NPOV and just want to "have logical and verifiable" proof of anything. Most are here for a "pryor" reason. And they will mostly always use the "I have a freind"...line. so I'm NPOV and an "outsider" or "at arms length".

I will post the link the site of the result of our reasearch on "SRCM/Sufi" and even the historical background of the different times...Most of the facts are verifiable with proper references...and there are still a few "probables" and "uncertainties" around dates but we are at the first draft and will get some comments others, including from the Sufi community...soon I hope...I am translating the material now... But it is a great work for this specific "branh" of Sufism and the placing of SRCMtm in that lineage. It will answer a lot of questions on the "origins of the teachings" (Raja Yoga, Sufi, as well as the "historical context"...Most of which I'm sure you (and other readers) already know.

Safely tucked inside the ONE (What some call God but I see as a Principle, a Dynamism) where we live!!

4d-don--don 00:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Small Change...

Hi Shashwat...

I have re-place the "Islam" edit with the "Lalaji's Naqshbandi Sufi Lineage (from Islam)" where it was originally and removed it from the "Lineage of Shri Ram Chandra Mission"... That makes it more accurate I think...That research paper is on my blog and can be read at any time for a full understanding of the Sufi lineage and the SRCMtm in that lineage...

Your comments ... if you think it should just be "removed" all together... We can wait for comments from the Sufi community and Mr. Gupta...

Don--don 20:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

looks fine

This seems more accurate, since we do not know when and how SRCM took a u turn from Islam (Sufi concept) to Hinduism (Raja Yoga) that should also be a point worth mentioning here, from discussion on other platforms it seems originally SRCM was a hardcore Islamic concept, as it is stated somewhere about lalaji's urge to convert to Islam, also reason's as why that was not officially decleared? if a person wants to convert to Islam, if his/her faith has changed then why it was not decleared officially? i believe this point should also be explored and presented to readers, as originator's faith was already in rasul-allah, the when why and how did his hardcore deciple's decided to switch the concept to hindu concept, or when and how this concept was decleared as related to Raja Yoga, these things should be discussed as to bring out clear picture, about this group.

Regards

Shashwat

Research Paper on the Sufi link to SRCMtm

Hi Shashwat...

I just finished the first draft of the translation the above-mentionned "Research Paper", and it is on my blog for comments and final edits...I am not posting my blog here so as not to "commercialize" my POV but you can read it for your info...I don't want too many comments before we get comments from the Sufi community (that have started coming in)...

On another point, the first mention of "Sahaj Marg being a "modified" Raja Yoga" seems to be one attributed to Dr Varadachari, a professor of Philosophy. You will notice that the "Lalaji/Huzur Couple", in the research paper were trying to "hindu-ize" the teachings of Sufism by referencing to "vedas" and other Hindu scriptures and to Hindu Saints rather than Islam and Muslim Saints. The "forcing" of Sahaj Marg into "Raja Yoga" (square peg into a round hole) could be an example of that process. I think (POV)it could be called a "very, very, very modified" Raja Yoga (lol) to the point the it can be debated (and supported by logic) that SRCMtm is not a Raja Yoga at all even though the SRCM at Varadachari's time (1950's) may have been. It was certainly smaller, constituting of a few hundred members.

Keeping in mind that Sahaj Marg was only formed in 1945 although Lalaji died in 1932 so 13 years of Babuji "meditating" by himself or with other "groups".

Then he is appointed (according to him) as "successor to Lalaji" (as mentionned on SMRTI) in a dream by "his dream-character", even though Lalaji's teachings are in many corners of India by his "legitimate" successors. There is mention of him keeping in touch with Dr Chatterbuy and the Ramashram (for Ram Chandra of Fatehgarh Lalaji).

I am starting to work on the period from 1932 (Lalaji's death)to 1945 (Babuji founds SRCM)(13 years). He is now called "Ram Chandra"...Christian is still going through the "autobiography of Babuji" and I will translate his "quotes" as they come up on his or Elodie's blog......SP Srivastava (Interim President of SRCM after Babuji's death before Umesh Saxena (Babuji's son))", has a book coming out soon that should enlighten the "true seekers" for truth. The followers by "blind faith" will not even read it, any more than they read the other material. And even if they read it, they won't believe it. Such is the state of the Mind of the adherents by "blind faith".

Information will set us Free...(yet....soon)

4d-don...

To 203.196.250.155

Your statement "yet none claimed due to respect to their guru, but enhanced the mission" is ambiguous (who did not claim? references?) and not correct according to the information on the sites of those groups, and has been removed. See the Web site of the various groups and individuals mentionned, Ramashram, etc.. and you will see that the lineage to Lalaji and the Naqashbandiyya Order, include the Masters (Gurus) of those groups. They thus claim "lineage", according to their sites... If you have any "references" that prove your statement, it will be put back in. Remember, according to Wiki, no original research and statements must refer to "credible" sources.

Jeanne--J.d'arc 20:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

ALERT ALERT ALERT Accusation by Babuji..

New site by Navneet Kumar, Grandson of Babuji

New OFFICIAL SRCM site...Accusation of Murder! New OFFICIAL SRCM site...Accusation of Murder!

Hi all...This is from 4d-don Site...

Sahaj Marg! Accusations of Forgery and Murder!

ALERT...ALERT...ALERT...

Hi all involved with Sahaj Marg and Shri Ram Chandra Mission!

Accusations of Forgery and Murder with documents and legal adviser's statements...

See the new Official Site of SRCMtm: (do not miss these two sections as the site is not complete yet)... http://www.srcmshahjahanpur.org.in/default.html

Legal adviser's statements: http://www.srcmshahjahanpur.org.in/who_can_be.html

Documents, letters, etc.. http://www.srcmshahjahanpur.org.in/facts.html

Information will set us free...We won't be fooled again!!

Safely Tucked inside the ONE (God) where we live!!

Please make copies of all information that could be lost or disappear in the next few weeks!!...

4d-don--don 04:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

To 202.131.114.134

Hi 202.131.114.134

This is a direct quote that I paraphrased by adding "It seems" to the rest of the sentence as per the Wikipedia guidelines...PARAPHRASE!!

From Salient Features of Sahaj Marg (SMRI Series 3) Page 52-53

Idol Worship;

Sahaj Marg has nowhere said temple worship is wrong, nor does Master expressly forbid idol worship. ....

To other abhyasis, the preceptor has become such an idol. I believe that any abhyasi who says, "my preceptor" when talking about the preceptor who is serving him has fallen into this form of idol worship. Here it is the preceptor who has been transformed into an idol, or idolised. Here again the Master may be in the background, but is that Master's rightful place? When Master says that every gods are fuctionaries of Nature, and are there to serve, and not to be served, can we deify preceptors and relatives in this way?

4d-don--don 18:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Message to Heartsease

Hi Heartsease...

I have reverted your last edit as it is still appropriate. The SRCM is still under the control of Chari (for a while at least)...

It would be more accurate if you added a statement expressing the philosophy of "SRCM Shahjahanpur" regarding "To whom the Prayer is addresed and why" until the settlement of the court case and then, I will leave you make all the corrections you want if the court decision is in your favour. Until then, we have to accomodate both groups... The statement in "To Whom the Prayer is addressed and why" reflects the SRCMtm registered by Chari and his followers. You can add something that expresses your "group" below that and in Neutral language (in the third person, not to "you", with the intro: "According to..." or something like that)...

Thank you for your patience and understanding... I appreciate all your entries and hope that I am not being too "professorial" inmy corrections, and "controlling". I have been dealing with supporters of Chari for a few years and I welcome your and "Jhonsmith1234's" input so as to balance the information to the teachings of Babuji, the founder and originator of Sahaj Marg. Much of the "debated words" and philosophy (or no philosophy), though not all, are from Chari...but I am not here to make a spiritual or religious value judgement on the material just trying to make sure that the information is "accurate", written in understandable language, and with "references"...I will make my point of view known on the blogs and discussion forum(s) or Fora!!  ;-))

4d-don

== To The Einstein ==

Thanks for the effort...

It seems to me that at this point in history, we have at least two factions wanting the "truth" of their information to be included in the WIKI "encyclopedia"...

Wiki can accomodate that if we do not attack the "truth" (POV) of the other but put in "one's" truth in "journalistic" style, as in an encyclopedia which has many "independent" POV's, and an assortment of "opinions" by a variety of contributors...

So for a journalistic approach, one uses the 3rd person (not the first, such as "I" or "We", or "My group") and such terms as "according to...", "This group claims...", etc...and leave the other opinion intact...Just offer a "counter" as a "balance" to the information that one does not "accept"....

It seems to me that we accept that from "encyclopedias" and we should accept it from WIKI...

The only other choice is to "seperate" the groups by SRCMtm (India) and SRCMtm (California) or other such Title and each group then puts out and protects their info by themselves. That still will not stop the other from "attacking" one's content of the NEW PAGE....

It seem to me that the inclusion of all the "differing" points of view in one page is what an "encyclopedia" is and what WIKI can be if we try and "put out our truth" and not "attack the percieved untruth from the "other" editors... All POV's can survive side by side as in real LIFE...

Just a starting place...(Icon # 5 (A) is for adding message to Index...Icon # 10 is for "signing" the message)

--don 19:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)Don...

== To Einstein ==

Your input is appreciated a lot, kindly keep in mind the wiki policy before you make any edit's, this page is not owned by SRCMtm, it is a free platform to provide unbiased information about this group, for instance, you cannot claim that SRCM is free of cost, if membership fee is even 1 $ (membership fee link is also provided which u had removed), giving a wrong information is not the intent of this page, here complete picture is to be provided, if u disagree then pls discuss before you make any change.

About physical impediments also, the link which is provided gives an authentic experience of some-1 who tried this method and suffered physically, hence those who wish to know about this group should have all information before they commit to it. Information is what we try and provided and not advertisement.

--Jhonsmith1234 19:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

== To Marathi Mulga ==

Link which pointed to a NPOV discussion about harms and effects of the method was removed, then restored, kindly keep in mind that this is not an advertisment platform for SRCMtm, people who seek information must read and gather information about what are the harms which are caused by this practice, and the link is also in accordence with wiki policy. kindly do not remove any information before it is discussed here, u can add any new aspect, if anyone has any objection then they can discuss it here before removing it.

--Jhonsmith1234 15:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Further to edits

It cannot belong to blogs as it is not a blog, but experience of a person, since at that portion of article, problems and physical difficulties are discussed hence link to discussion must be placed there only, in this world of information truth cannot be hidden or manipulated, it has to be expressed as is, without and modificcation or in accordence to suit any perticular group or section, allow those who seek information be get the complete picture and not hidden or manipulated section of the picture.

--Jhonsmith1234 19:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

To Marathi Mulga

Kindly note truth cannot be hidden, we can go on and undo each other's edits, this group has been discribed as a cult in govt report hence it automaticly qualifies as a mind controlling cult group, and is no where related to yoga, hence do not remove the links to other cult groups and views of other members related to cults. pls discuss here rather then editing.

--Jhonsmith1234 22:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Teachings section

It is observed that few editors are changing the content of teachings of SRCMtm Chari group without discussing it here, citation was asked for the fact that Mr Chari claims himself to be God, which was provided, even after that the section was edited without any discussion, pls note we are not advertisement agents of any group, and we must behave in accordance with the wiki policy, of discussing any edits, if any of the editor's do not agree.

Else we have the "undo" option, but that will not be helpful for anyone, if there is any disconnect, it can easily be discussed here.

This is the section.

"Its adherents see it as a natural, simple heart-based approach to realizing the presence of the divine within their lives. For adherents of Chari Group, their Master (Currently Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari) is the sole representative of divinity on earth. Mr Chari has announced Mr. A. Bhatter as next representative of divinity on this earth, and he will represent God on earth after his death."

If anyone does not agree, kindly point out where and why he/she has any problem.

--Jhonsmith1234 21:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To Jhonsmith

No entity called "Chari Group".

"Sahaj Marg" is a registered trademark and service mark of Shri Ram Chandra Mission.

--Marathi mulga 21:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To Marathi Mulga

Court case between Shri Ram Chandra Mission and Mr Chari is pending before Suprem court of india, hence his group can only be called as Chari group and nothing else.

See tarde mark here

see court case details here http://courtnic.nic.in/supremecourt/temp/ac661900p.txt the trade mark is owned by SRCM and not Chari's group, he only claims that he runs the said mission, whereas original group also has the same ownership of trademark etc, kindly refer to sahajmarg.org doamin dispute, where chari group claimed that it is registered in California and is not the one which is registered in India.

Hence it can only be called as Chari group and nothing else.

--Jhonsmith1234 21:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To Jhonsmith

If the court case is pending, you cannot say that SRCM and Sahaj Marg DOESN'T belong to what you refer to as the "Chari group" either then. You must refer to them both as Shri Ram Chandra Mission then. --Marathi mulga 22:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To Marathi Mulga

If u see the claims made by Chari group they are registerd in California(2000) and is not the original SRCM registered in India(1945), hence their claim is invalid according to their own stand, you are trying to hide the fact that Mr Chari claims himself to be God, citation for the same has also been provided, kindly inform us as why you disagree with the official statement of Chari group.

see their own testimonial about their status here

--Jhonsmith1234 22:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To JhonSmith

Are you passing judgment on behalf of the Supreme Court of India on who is and isn't SRCM?

--Marathi mulga 22:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To MM

What makes you think soo, i am just reproducing judgement of previous decisions made not by me but by arb-forum which was approached by Chari group itself, for clarity purpose see a transcript here.

I have added Chari group and Original SRCM for clarity purpose here

<start quote>

5. Indeed, the evidence submitted by Shri Ram (Original SRCM) establishes that Shri Ram (Original SRCM) has a legitimate interest in the Domain Name and has not acted in bad faith. For example, a Certificate of Registration of Societies dated Locknow, India 21 July 1945 evidences that the Shri Ram Chandra Mission, as opposed to SRC (Chari group) which is a California corporation, was formed in India on or prior to that date. The "Aims and Objectives" of Shri Ram are stated, in a copy of its Rules and Constitution dated 2 July 1945, to include: to encourage the down-hearted and promote amongst them the easier methods, practicable to them, for the attainment of social and moral aims of life, based on the principles of spirituality, translated as "Sahaj Marg". A similar use of Sahaj Marg appears in a copy of Shri Ram’s minutes of a meeting of disciples and beneficiaries held at Shahjahanpur on June 10, 1945.

6. In its response, Shri Ram (Original SRCM) asserts that various other marks obtained by SRC(Chari group), such as "Shri Ram Chandra Mission" should be cancelled as illegally obtained. There is no indication, however, that SRC (Chari group) agreed to arbitrate those issues under the Rules. Thus, that relief must be denied without prejudice to its being sought in the proper forum.

<end quote> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jhonsmith1234 (talk • contribs) 22:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

To JhonSmith

That's a quote from a domain name litigation. This still doesn't have any bearing on which SRCM is the "real" SRCM. Till that happens at the Supreme Court of India, both groups must be referred to as Shri Ram Chandra Mission. You may want to refer to them as Shri Ram Chandra Mission of Shahajahanpur and Shri Ram Chandra Mission of Chennai which is where these entities are headquartered.

--Marathi mulga 23:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To JhonSmith

To your comment on *just the Chari Group* considering the Master to be the representation of divinity on Earth, this URL doesn't prove it. This URL says this about all the Masters. It isn't a teaching that started with Chariji's arrival. It started long before him.

• Babuji on the Guru
• The Mission prayer has in it's last line " O Master! ....Thou art the only God and power to bring us up to that stage." - The prayer was instituted by Babuji.

--Marathi mulga 23:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To Marathi Mulga

The link of Chari group website clearly say's that Master is God, and current Master is Mr Chari hence it can be safely concluded that Mr Chari via his website claims himself to be God, whereas other groups like ISRC or the original SRCM do not claim divinity of their living master's except Chari group.

Hence it must be stated that Chari group like all other distructive cults of the world is also run by a person who claims himself to be God, a living representative of God on this earth, and guide to entire humanity etc. etc. like all other cults this group also has no question policy and Mr Chari is the suprem authority of this group. Hence it is must for all those who seek information to know these facts before hand, and also get information about other similar cults. As only information can set a person free and this is what is essence of wiki as well.

--Jhonsmith1234 23:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To JohnSmith

Again - That's Babuji's definition of a Guru, not Charijis. If the other groups consider Babuji as their sole Guru, I too can safely infer that they also believe this teaching.

Care to define a "cult"? If having a single figurehead is the hallmark of a cult, do Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and what you call as the original SRCM qualify as cults in your opinion?

The Wikipedia definition of a destructive cult doesn't even come close to applying to SRCM - "The term "destructive cult" (sometimes called doomsday cult) is sometimes used to refer to that small number of religious groups that have intentionally killed people, either the group members themselves or others outside of the group." If you know of anyone that, what you call, the Chari group, have killed lately, I'd love to hear about it.

--Marathi mulga 23:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To marathi Mulga

Why do you want to hide the fact that Mr Chari claims himself to be God, which no other related group claims, this claim of divinty by Mr Chari as of today is present in Chari group only and no-where else, why are you trying to hide information, not allowing people to know the facts before hand ? pls explain before you try to hide that information again. It is a simple fact this page is about Sahaj Marg, which Mr Chari claim to spread, hence this information is must for all to know that he claims himself to be God, just like all other cults. this group also applies mind control method which however is evident by your repetative undo action without discussion.

If Mr Chari is really a disciple of babuji then in no condition he can order to physically harm members of his family. He is in direct confrontation with family members of Babuji, of Pls read the sites of other’s before you claim any of his exclusive teachings to Mr Chari.

Cult This is one of the features defined by various anti cult groups, for reference pls read definition of mind controlling cult simplified as below:-

1. The spiritual group claims to have received special instructions from one or more "messengers from the sky."

Brighter world

2. The spiritual group uses a special set of rules that you must obey or be cast out.

Sitting with preceptors Chari birthday calibration’s (those who have not attainded atleast two birthday party are not eligible for crest)

3. The spiritual group promises eternal life in a paradise if you obey its set of rules, and threatens eternal suffering if you do not obey its set of rules.

Place in brighter world

4. The spiritual group demands that you give up as much of your assests and your yearly income to it as possible.

See donation’s

5. The members of the spiritual group call each other "brother" and "sister," even when they aren't related at all.

This is a fact

6. The spiritual group is led by a group of claimed enlightened masters who wear strange clothes and speak in esoteric parables.

True for Mr Chari and not for any other related group

7. The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge.

True for Mr Chari, pls refer to Chari groups website for more details

8. The spiritual group demands that you select your spouse and your closest friends from its membership.

Marriages are arranged inside the mission itself.

9. The spiritual group demands that you place your children in its training program.

OMEGA

10. The spiritual group teaches that giving up your life for the sake of the spiritual group may become necessary sometime in the future.

Pls read dedicate your self to Sahaj Marg by Mr Chari

This is a mind controlling cult which is responsible for death of many people due to heart attack, since this teaches to meditate on heart hence there are many people who developed heart related issues and some have even died due to heart related issue’s since it is claimed that Chari’s method is safe but result is just the opposite hence it can safely be concluded that Chari group is a destructive cult as per wiki defination. In website of original SRCM it is claimed that Mr Chari has murdered babuji hence the group qualifies as genuine destructive cult from all definations

John Smith

What Chariji is doing is following his Masters teaching. What your edits portray is that's His original creation, when it isn't. Babuji had this principle firmly in place long before (See link in my above post).

--Marathi mulga 00:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Responses in-line:

1. The spiritual group claims to have received special instructions from one or more "messengers from the sky."

Brighter world

MM: 1. The messenger is from Switzerland. 2. Other examples that meet this criterion - The 10 commandments, the Quran, the Torah and the Bible.

JM: Messages are still coming, this time via an un-named french lady.

2. The spiritual group uses a special set of rules that you must obey or be cast out.

Sitting with preceptors Chari birthday calibration’s (those who have not attainded atleast two birthday party are not eligible for crest)

MM: Kindly cite this.

JM:-http://www.sahajmarg.org/welcome/crest/ see condtions. The second condition has been changed recently, from 2 birthday parties now it is 5 yrs of abhyas

3. The spiritual group promises eternal life in a paradise if you obey its set of rules, and threatens eternal suffering if you do not obey its set of rules.

Place in brighter world

MM: Kindly cite eternal suffering for disobeying.

JM:- No place in brighter world

4. The spiritual group demands that you give up as much of your assests and your yearly income to it as possible.

See donation’s

MM: When has anyone from SRCM "demanded you give up as much of your assets and your yearly income to it" - Kindly cite.

JM:- http://www.srcm.org/members/24july2007/donation.jsp this group works for poor and asks for donation for birthday celibrations of Mr Chari

5. The members of the spiritual group call each other "brother" and "sister," even when they aren't related at all.

This is a fact

MM: I consider you my brother too (I do). What does that have to do with anything?

JM:- Why? i am not abhyasi of SRCM hence i cannot be your brother.

6. The spiritual group is led by a group of claimed enlightened masters who wear strange clothes and speak in esoteric parables.

True for Mr Chari and not for any other related group

MM: You make me smile, my Brother. You, a Texan, find jeans strange? And wasn't the Bible full of parables?

JM:-I find smoking, and other attairs strange

7. The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge.

True for Mr Chari, pls refer to Chari groups website for more details

MM: Kindly cite which part of website.

JM:- http://www.sahajmarg.org/subscriptions/whispers/invitation.html

My wife Sulochana, who departed for the Brighter World in November 1999, is the fourth giver of messages, having secured her place in my Master's heart in His lifetime, and now seated at His divine feet in the Brighter World.

I invite the readers of this book to set aside their scepticism, their doubts, perhaps even anger, when confronted by the whispers from sources not located on earth, but received as messages addressed to me, many to another abhyasi of the Mission, and many also of general relevance not addressed to anyone in particular, but to the whole of humanity. May these messages bring new hope to threatened humanity, threatened with instant extinction by the forces of hatred, wilful violence and religious bigotry.

8. The spiritual group demands that you select your spouse and your closest friends from its membership.

Marriages are arranged inside the mission itself.

MM: Chariji gave his blessings when I married a girl who meditates in Art of Living, not SRCM. Weddings inside the Mission are the exception rather than the norm.

JM:- By any chance did you Rx'ed blessings from Shri Shri Ravi Shanker also ?

9. The spiritual group demands that you place your children in its training program.

OMEGA

MM: OK, lets do the math - 900 seats at Omega school, 200000 abhyasis.

JM:- OK Lets use comman-sense, 200000 abhyasis all in Channai India ?

10. The spiritual group teaches that giving up your life for the sake of the spiritual group may become necessary sometime in the future.

Pls read dedicate your self to Sahaj Marg by Mr Chari

MM: Here's the speech - Kindly point out the relevant section.

JM: Just read the speech

This is a mind controlling cult which is responsible for death of many people due to heart attack, since this teaches to meditate on heart hence there are many people who developed heart related issues and some have even died due to heart related issue’s since it is claimed that Chari’s method is safe but result is just the opposite hence it can safely be concluded that Chari group is a destructive cult as per wiki defination. In website of original SRCM it is claimed that Mr Chari has murdered babuji hence the group qualifies as genuine destructive cult from all definations

MM: Kindly cite examples of such deaths and Chariji murdering Babuji.

JM:- http://www.srcmshahjahanpur.org.in/who_can_be.html

It is to bring to the notice amongst all the abhyasis of the fact that there have been several attempts on the life of our Revered Master and Guru since 1974 by P. Rajagopalachari whereby P. Rajagopalachari succeeded in his final attempt by poisoning our Guru Pujya Babuji Maharaj while traveling from Paris to India. Thereafter Babuji Maharaj took Mahasamadhi on 19.4.1983

--Marathi mulga 06:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

To Marathi Mulga

I have been watching your constent struggle with JS, it was obvious that you were avoiding some facts from being published which JS was hell bent to publish.

I found this in your page

The first time I ever tried to make an edit to an article, I realized the downside of Wikipedia's democratic structure to my huge dismay. Wikipedia is often hijacked by the lowest common denominator of public opinion. Consensus and not necessarily the facts drive the content here. The last word often goes to tenacity and pugnaciousness, rather than scholarship and knowledge. The result can be that skewed, warped and twisted version of reality that comedian Stephen Colbert refers to as "Wikiality".

Now given the fact that you have not been able to discuss anything logically, still you feel that logical discussions are not part of wiki policy ? Is this fault of wikipedia or yours if you are not able to discuss and establish you POV ? insted of removing and useing the undo option of wiki you could have discussed and then edited. In anycase your edit war with JhonSmith was really a fun to watch. do you edit any other page as well?

I wonder if you feel that wiki is not a good place would you mind informing us why you struggled so hard, and still you are present in wiki, if you feel that this is not a good place to be then what is keeping you here? why you criticize as well as enjoy? why this hipocracy

Chips B --63.98.178.67 03:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

to 171.71.231.91

You have tried to remove the link which specifically lists Chari as a cult leader. This link is valid, the page is not an informative page but contains list of all the cults which it has studied and found to be of cultic nature which applies mind control tactics over its members in order to maintain control. Hence link is a valid option for viewer's of this page as it will provide a clear reference as where Chari as a person has been listed as a cult leader. This link is important and must be visible to all those who seek information about this cult group. Pls discuss here before removing any link, you can add any comment, but kindly do not remove any point without proper discussion.

--Jhonsmith1234 22:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

to JS

Sorry - I'm 171.71.231.91

The site says " Views expressed on our Web sites are those of the document's author(s) and are not necessarily shared, endorsed, or recommended by ICSA or any of its directors, staff, or advisors."

However, there is no author listed.

Furthermore, the only content on http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_grp/grp_sriramchandramission.asp is:

Sri Ram Chandra Mission

Sahaj Marg

The Natural Path

Sri Ram Chandra Mission Chari (Guru)

It proves nothing and adds no value.

Here's the rest of what the ICSA site says:

"ICSA does NOT maintain a list of "bad" groups or "cults." We nonjudgmentally list groups on which we have information.

A listing on ICSA's web site does not mean that ICSA perceives any group to be a cult, practices coercive or destructive tactics, or is in violation of any law. It simply means that ICSA has information on the group and/or has received inquiries from current and former members, their family, professionals, researchers, the media, or the general public.

Groups listed, described, or referred to on ICSA's Web sites may be mainstream or nonmainstream, controversial or noncontroversial, religious or nonreligious, cult or not cult, harmful or benign."

to all reviewers

Hello

I'd like your opinion on this. This page is in terrible shape from a readability standpoint.

This page is about Sahaj Marg - The practice. It seems to me that the description of the practice should take precedence then. Here's what I suggest to improve readability (regardless of the opinions expressed):

1. We move the Philosophy section to the top , 2. followed by the Aims & Ideals, followed by the Method, followed by the teachings (abbreviated, with details on the Sahaj Marg Philosophy page). 3. The Masters section can be slimmed down, with the bulk of this material going to Shri Ram Chandra Mission instead. We only retain the parts that talk about the emergence of the method (Sahaj Marg). 4. The activity section could completely go to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission section.

Thanks. MM --69.110.43.74 18:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Marathi & All by 4d-don

Hi all..

I agree with the readability and I appreciate your offer. As you can tell, with the many edits, the result could come out as "unreadable" as the original and will still have to be "continuously" cleaned up.

This page is about SAHAJ MARG I agree...but not "the Method" as part of the SRCM's PR of: The Master, the Mission, the Method. I don't agree with using the PR (3M's) as a template for an article of "information". I think that past attempts have met with too much "controversy" and edit wars that ended up with what we have now, with the 3 articles...I would eliminate the Sahaj Marg Philosophy as it became a repetition of what was in the other articles...as an attempt at defining terms (Brighter world, etc...)

I will take your points one by one... Just my Humble opinion...

1. The Introduction (short) should remain the first section according to WIKI

2. The Philosophy of Sahaj Marg, which is really from Babuji and not from Chari or Lalaji, can be presented as such but could bring some comments from many, specially from the SRCM "Navneet" faction who feel that Chari is not living the "SRCM philosophy" with his statements that Sahaj Marg has "no philosophy" and that "Obedience" (to the MASTER and the MISSION) is more important than "meditation and cleaning"... So if the philosophy is to go to the "first section"...Care should be given to these issues so as to avoid on-going "add-ons" to explain both faction's points of view....I was going to wait for the "court to enter a judgement" and then at least we would only be dealing with SRCM (Navneet) or SRCM (Chari)... But you are free to attempt and I (and others (I'm sure..lol) will adjust without "prejudice" if I see some "advertising" or PR for one faction only...

2. I agree with the Aims and Ideals (again...keep factions in mind with Aims and Ideals) being next. The Method could be next as long as, according to "Heartsease", the wording of the "instructions" must be kept exactly as Babuji wrote them or they will lead to corruption and "disaster". (referenced to the Babuji material)

I don't agree with changing the Teachings and moving it to the Sahaj Marg Philosophy page as I think that page should be eliminated. These are all entries by others that I undertook to defend as they reflect what Sahaj Marg is NOW. These are the teachings of Chari who states that Sahaj Marg has "no philosophy" so his statements are the new "SAHAJ MARG" and as such should remain in the "main article". It could be placed after the other sections as mentionned above. Repeat: I would like to eliminate the Sahaj Marg Philosophy page.

3. "The Master" is "all important" to Sahaj Marg and specially to the NEW SRCM (Chari) and something to that effect should be placed in that section. I agree that the debate and controversy around the succession could be moved to the SRCM page... Again, SRCM(Navneet) and ISRC (KC Narayana) believe that Babuji is the Master forever and Chari sees "obedience" (to the MASTER and the MISSION) as the most important aspect of the METHOD... That must not be "buried" in another page but should be on the SAHAJ Marg page.

4. All the "activities" (not PR or advertisement..Check out the "Master's Birthday" entry...That is advertising, not info (specially with a bullet in front of the "beds available"... lol), can be placed in the SRCM page.

I appreciate your attempts to clean up the article and as I will be here to defend others' edits, I will also be "defending" yours from future "editors"...I have seen WIKI work and it is not as you say that the "LOWEST common denominator wins...unless I am the lowest common denominator lol. The lowest common denominator is the one who has an agenda and who finally "gives up" because the energy to sustain a false argument is not "PURE". And the "majority" is also not who wins as I feel that I am not the majority in this page and I feel that we all win from the WIKI experience...I do not presume "bad faith" or an "agenda", but confront it when I meet it. Most people are not like that and will be less like that in the future. (I hope lol) We who are "spiritual" should at least lead the way in the control of our "emotions" and according to Raja Yoga, our intellect. It is only the "dogmatists", and those with a dualistic agenda (even vandals) who are still at that stage of seeing the world as them and us, right and wrong, etc.., not "most"... If you think that the lowest common denominator wins, you will change your mind as the "new low" or the "new high", is reached ..;-)) WIKI is dynamic...and it means Power to the "participants". We are now "IN MOTION", and so is IN-formation. NO more stasis and dogma in the WIKI process. In the WIKI world, Knowledge is a MYTH in the making!!(or in-formation). Religions want to believe that they have the only TRUTH "forever" and that truth is one, and is THEIRS, hence making TRUTH static. Logic believes and (I) states that a theory (or a truth) only survives until a better one comes along. WIKI is more like that. Sahaj Marg as promoted by Chari, is not a TRUTH that is accepted by everyone, even the "insiders". That must be reflected in the article.

I have been to the MOUNTAIN...I have seen this WIKI work...Strangers (with an agenda?..I don't know) have defended my edits... But it is not a place to advertise and do PR and those who are "insiders" are sometimes disappointed. It is not a place to place your "commercial" and then wait for the "numbers" to start rolling in. It is a debate. As an example, those who are "catholics" do not like the encyclopedic entries on the "priest abusers" scandal. But the truth does prevail... just not MY truth...nor yours...But to an outsider, all of our truth together in one article is what they get. They can then pursue the topic in the "links"..

I wish that all the "info" could be "signed" by the editors so we could then distinguish the "POV" of each but that is for later...the technology will give us that too eventually...lol

To advertise, do PR, and give POV's that are not NEUTRAL, the .com, the .org, and the blogs are better suited... this is a discussion and and debate format and will always be in flux. You might want to give that some thought...  ;-)

PS..for "citation needed", please add date so that other editors can then remove the entry, if the citation does not appear in a reasonable time (weeks).

We are all ONE!! In the SPIRIT if not in the dualistic INTELLECT or MIND!

4d-don...

Hi 4d-don

Appreciate the positive response and the injection of a positive attitude to the effort.

Just one thing - Please realize that the teachings of what you call the Chari group are as much "PR" to me and other serious abhyasis like me as, say, the Bible would be PR to a practicing Catholic. I'd appreciate if you didn't refer to it that way. I have no intention to proselytize here - What I've posted so far is my best effort at reflecting my most honest views of Sahaj Marg, SRCM and Chariji.

Yes, I agree the "Philosophy of Sahaj Marg" as a separate page doesn't make much sense. Not sure what led to it (Possibly a novel way to settle an earlier edit war?). :)

Secondly - At this point, I have no intention to edit the content - just the layout. Suppose I'm Joe reader, and I come to this page, shouldn't I be supplied the facts first before being presented the opposing points on view? I'd be in no position to understand the opinions till I first understand what those opinions are about.

We could then work our way through the article, one paragraph at a time and figure out what's extraneous, exaggerated, incontiguous or missing. I will be counting on the editor crew to pipe in with their views.

You, sir, are far from the lowest common denominator - That's why I felt like I could collaborate with you. As mentioned above, I'm no preacher and if my posts ever make me sound like I am, it wasn't intentional. I will be happy to accept legitimate edits (You've seen that), so fire away.

Thanks, Don!

--Marathi mulga 08:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Marathi re "layout"

Hi Marathi and all...

I agree with the layout...

On the "PR and the Bible statement", being a ex-catholic (seminarian), I can assert with much historical weight behind me that one could not quote the authority of the BIBLE according to King James's monks to a catholic without getting into a "debate" and in this case, an edit war...lol

The debate about the Bible in Christianity took place many centuries ago and the "seperation of authorities" meant that all could claim the BIBLE but all have their own BIBLE and there is an Apocrypha where there is "no agreement" that included such books as the Book of Ruth, and and will now even include the gospels of many of the "apostles" of the MASTER, Jesus, the Christ (Messiah)...

That debate has not taken place in Sahaj Marg and if one reads Lalaji, Babuji and Chari, one sees that it would difficult to represent them all as "SAHAJ MARG" or Raja Yoga for that matter and not get into a debate as now, the issues are also entwined in a "succession" debate with many "intrigues" and power struggles... So we will have to accomodate all factions as well as "others", until the issue of "successiion" is resolved in court and then the article will have to change again. We can be grateful that KC Narayana has formed his ISRC and that there are not "three" contenders to the throne...lol

I will refrain from refering general edits from one person as "PR" unless I see one that appears as PR and I will mention it as kindly as I can. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish belief from "pushing" one's belief as fact or the truth. That is why the information revolution is so important at this time to address these issues in the Public Forum so as to "practice" our communication skills...If I am "unkind" I will apologize for the "unkindness" and rephrase the "content". I respect your views and will defend them once we all agree that they are legitimate NPOV "information".

You will find that the editors will come in and out at their own leisure and not necessarily stay to debate...That is the way of WIKI...We can live with that.

I appreciate your compliment that I am not the Lowest Common denominator (in your opinion), I am tenacious though...lol...And the editors of "arhshstjhsjjth" and "JSHGJSHSJG" (the "vandals", cousins of the Goths and the Visigoths or the medieval days...lol) are to me the "lowest" and they have come and gone and will be back...lol I will be here to "revert" if need be. At least WIKI allows us to not ban those who would "give us trouble" but to "undo" their damage (their "sin") and still "LOVE the sinner" and invite them to "debate" or "commune" (as in "communion". (to use a Christian analogy..lol)

So far, I agree with what I see (on the layout)...Hopefully we will get other comments...but?

Thank you for the effort and your candor...

4d-don...

reply

Allo everyone!

Looks good. --J.d'arc 01:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

To all zombies of Sahaj Marg

Hi all,

i m visiting this page after a long time, and have seen quite some changes here, nice to see that marathi mulga is back in action, a nice edit war with JS, Marathi since u have decleared that u r a serious abhyasi would you like to discuss sahaj marg with me, on logical grounds with some sense in it, i am open for discussion anywhere, be it here or any of the blogs of ur choice. My view is clear, this group is a mind controlling cult group which maintains control over people and converts them into zombies like yourself, unthinking animals who after accepting that this is a cult are still involved in it.

These zombies are capable of distroying everything around them. This group in perticular must cease to exist, since it is people who make or break any cult, we as responsible humans must make sure that these cults must be eradicated from the face of earth thereby people can become free to live a life of their choice.

Hence we should be expose this dangerous cult with the power of wiki. I hope to get positive responce from all here. I will start editing this artical soon.

--Shashwat pandey 04:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow - Hello all!

Hey - Good to see all this activity.

Shashwat - How are you - I love you too, man! :) Happy to talk to you - My zombie debate style will definitely bore you though.

Speaking of the edits on the page - 63.98.178.67 did quite a job (Hey Jhonsmith - How are you?). Everyone other than me agree with everything he's put down here? Does this appear as fair, balanced and neutral?

Evening cleaning - The butt-smoking comments were awesome! FYI, the "Backside" has been edited to "back" in all Mission material after American abhyasis explained what "backside" connotates to them.

Individual sittings - "some critics have also termed this method as mental sex, between preceptor and adherent."

"here it is also important to mention that he (Chariji) ..... has a criminal record." Kindly cite, JS.

Chariji's birthday: "group thinking prevails and individual thinking is surpressed." This is an opinion, not fact. What do you base this on?

"It has been reported by some family members of abhyasis that this connection of heart causes problems in marriges and has resulted in divorce of many people where one of the partner has left the mission." - Pls. cite

I'm almost tempted to leave JS's comments in - The man's a genius at comedy!

--Marathi mulga 06:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Tnx

On the contrary, whenever i feel like laughing, i turn to you zombies, its really a fun watching these people moving like zombie's, saying I love chari, i love chari i love chari, i have been transmitted this is transmission... this is really wonderful to watch. kindly do not worry about my getting bored, u r welcome to discuss if u have time, let me know which place should we start.

here is my blog if u prefer to discuss there

--Shashwat pandey 13:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello people

I did one edit to shorten the edit box. I hope you don't mind if we don't take part in your debates. We will be reading you regularly. I will not edit unless about obvious things like this edit.

Have fun

James

To Chips

Hi Chips

Sorry - Just noticed your post.

What have I not discussed logically? Happy to expand.

On the edits - When I saw that something was plain wrong, I took it out - Added notes and discussed the first few times. You forget to notice that it was then put right back in.... Repeatedly. What would you do in my shoes?

On why am I still here: 1. I'm not a quick learner. 2. Don thinks I could still change my opinion, and I believe him.

MM --Marathi mulga 20:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

To MM

What have I not discussed logically?

C: Well it was more then obvious!!!

Happy to expand.

C: things have setteled down it seems

On the edits.........What would you do in my shoes?

C: Try to figur out if what is being posted is actually wrong or it seems as wrong due to brainwashing of this cult? this is a good opertunity to see things in a different light. try to see SRCM from outsiders prospective, till u identify urself with cults u will fail to notice any difference, between wrong and right. try to understand POV of JS, may be it will help u get out of mind control of SRCM !!! who knows, you may still have the power to accept your true self.

1. I'm not a quick learner.

C: This only because of SRCM, this is a habit and can be changed, SRCM starts with the fact that people needs time to love master, if there has to be love it will be instant. logic and others needs time to be tested, but love cannot be developed, if it is, then it is manipulated.

2. Don thinks I could still change my opinion, and I believe him.

C: That will be wonderfull, atleast these people like Shaswat, JS etc will become glad that their hardwork of exposing SRCM is bringing result. If that indeed happens, do inform these people, as they are the one who helped you out of this cult.

My best wishes to you, in your struggle to move out and become free again.

--Chips2133 21:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

allo everone...

I was just out Cruisingand I thought I would take a peek and I am impressed. We are actually laughing together. Who cares who is right or who is wrong, It will change from one to the other as someone mentionned earlier or somewhere else. lmao

This is probably the most spiritual we have been for a while.  :-(  ;-)

Bless us all

salut --J.d'arc 23:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

4d-Don's few edits

Hi all...

The reason I added the "citation needed" in the Pranahuti section is because of the statements by Chari in the sections that follow, in the Teachings "On other RELIGIONS". It seems to contradict some of those statements. One finds that statement in Babuji's letter to the UN but not Chari's speeches and what about the "other statements on RELGIONS?

Chari calls his "preceptors" PRIESTS in that section also. So it is a fair title IMHO.

The attempts at "ecumenism" is not a serious one as it used to make false claims as my wife who claims that even "catholic priests" come and Meditate with us. I am sure that the Vatican is watching Chari who calls them "corrupt" and is trying to take some of their sheep but it is not genuine and only words. Ecumenism means you respect the other religions and not call them "names" if Chari actually wants "to meditate together". Not under Chari is what I would say....I will not be transmitted to by "name callers" in the name of UNITY.

At least Chari should start apologizing to the Gays, the other Religions, the broken families and the "broken hearts" of those of the "schisms" who had to leave the SRCM of Babuji that had drawn them, to form their own "faction" with Babuji as the Master. I will not go to either unless I become a friend of someone in any faction. But right now, I can't even be friends with my wife of 35 years around Chari and the All New SRCM...

So the "non-aligned" statement leaves me "cold on the shoulder" and with a feeling that I should ask for a "citation" and reference and try to insist that Chari be "muzzled" or "apologize" or live up to his words if they are his. If they are Babuji's then we will have to wait for the Court to render a "judgement" and decide on a coarse of action then..

4d-don--don 01:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Zombie calling Don, Shashwat & Chips

Hey Don - To be honest, I had no idea what "ecumenism" meant and had to look up a Websters dictionary: "principles and practices especially as shown among religious groups (as Christian denominations)". I'm not sure what the significance of the "non-aligned" term is, anyways, in this context. If I'm not prying (and if I am, feel free to tell me to get lost), why can you not be friends with your wife?

Chips - Point noted (partially). This is my promise to you, and I expect you to hold me to it - I will dig deeper for proof in future, no matter what the statement. I'll let proven facts win the day. This is an encyclopedia and facts, not opinions belong here. When JS cited the "cult" reference from that French govt. reports, I did let his cult stuff stay in (Look up the page history for proof).

I'd like to humbly submit that I'm not (always) stupid. I have no intentions to preach to you guys. I respect you as individual adults that know your own mind. You have your reasons for feeling the way you do, and this page will be the richer for the presence of your opinion here, as Don says.I'd like to admit to you, as I would to any friend, that Sahaj Marg has always felt right from deep inside. It's been a long and happy relationship and I promise you that you aren't going to be able to change that. I let you be you, so please let me be me.

And I disagree that all love is at first sight - Cases in point: My love for my wife, my love for blue cheese, my love for this awesome Indian digestive candy called "Hajmola" (You should try it - Tastes just terrible the first time, but grows on you).

Pandeyji - Please start editing this page - The debates will inevitably follow. :)

My notes will be more truncated going forward - Wife is working full-time AND goes to school for her Masters degree. So I have to handle the house, so limited time to edit. Don't take it personal if my message to you is a 1-liner.

MM

--Marathi mulga 05:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Zombie edits 1

Note Chips - I'm going by your advice and asking for citations instead of deleting (Most times anyways). I've also edited anti-SRCM posts to give them correct grammer and spellings - Aren't you proud of me? :)

• Citation: What other cults have transmission and evening cleaning?
• Citation: Where did Buddha et al say this?
• Heart "in India"?
• Citation: Please prove where SRCM has forced people to pay to attend a gathering and excluded them if they didn't. May I suggest that you do a trial registration for any event here and enter $ or Rupees 0 (zero) as donation amount. It won't raise any flags. I just tried it out. The Raipur circular does not say that the Rs. 300 is compulsary. While I can't prove it could be waived, there were some dirt-poor people that attended that could never have afforded to pay that amount.
• Pranahuti: Taking out the reference to "mental sex" - This is just plain offensive and discriminative language. It adds no value, and seriously undermines the page.
• An NGO is simply any non-governmental organization acc to Wikipedia. When and where did SRCM promise to help the poor? The charter was always to teach Sahaj Marg meditation. An NGO's charter can be for anything, from teaching folk music to promoting carpet weaving. I plan to start an NGO to keep minority Wikipedia editors safe. ;)
• Why is Chariji's birthday being singled out when the Mission celebrates the birthdays of three Masters? The last celebration I attended was Babuji's birthday last year in Raipur and the year before before that was babujis birthday celebs in Tiruppur.
• What exactly is so lavish about Mission celebrations? At both celebs mentioned above, people slept on the floor, and got rained on and had to deal with ankle deep slush at all times. The food was extremely simple (but nice, I admit). The mosquitos were in great form. The bathing water was cold, and I shared a bathing bucket with several others. (I had a blast at the function though!)
• Citation - What exactly is meant by "individual thinking is suppressed"? Pls. explain.
• The mention of marital problems in the sittings with preceptors section - What's the connection to the sittings with preceptors? His problem in the article is with SRCM in general and not with sittings in particular (His wife practiced, became a serious abhyasi, and then left him after 10 years in SRCM). While you just have a single side of the story here, I wont contest it. May I suggest a "Criticism of Sahaj Marg" section where such general criticisms are placed. See the Art of Living page. I think, Don, that you had suggested this too?
• Constant remembrance - sorry - I don't get what's the connection to dogs barking with constant remembrance????

Hasta Mañana, amigos.

--Marathi mulga 07:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Message to Zombies

Hi,

nice see u back in action

my responce in line

• Citation: What other cults have transmission and evening cleaning?

SP:- Only this cult claims to have this method

• Citation: Where did Buddha et al say this?

SP:- Pls read Dhammpad, ref to chapter 2, for SV ref complete works vol-1 chapter karma yoga

• Heart "in India"?

Chari lives in India

• Citation: Please prove where SRCM has forced people to pay to attend a gathering and excluded them if they didn't. May I suggest that you do a trial registration for any event here and enter $ or Rupees 0 (zero) as donation amount. It won't raise any flags. I just tried it out.

SP: Comment was are expected to pay donations to party, no mention of force was there.

The Raipur circular does not say that the Rs. 300 is compulsary. While I can't prove it could be waived, there were some dirt-poor people that attended that could never have afforded to pay that amount.

SP:- Pls read the circular again, and when u cannot prove then accept it as truth.

• Pranahuti: Taking out the reference to "mental sex" - This is just plain offensive and discriminative language. It adds no value, and seriously undermines the page.

SP:- This is view of a critic and has valid presense in a wiki page. It is offensive from your point of view, not all, this is a fact, and must be exposed.

• An NGO is simply any non-governmental organization acc to Wikipedia. When and where did SRCM promise to help the poor? The charter was always to teach Sahaj Marg meditation. An NGO's charter can be for anything, from teaching folk music to promoting carpet weaving. I plan to start an NGO to keep minority Wikipedia editors safe. ;)

SP:- Pls see discussion by a 14 yrs abhyasi, also kindly refer to UN notification where as roles of SRCM has been discribed

• Why is Chariji's birthday being singled out when the Mission celebrates the birthdays of three Masters? The last celebration I attended was Babuji's birthday last year in Raipur and the year before before that was babujis birthday celebs in Tiruppur.

SP:- April 30 birthday party at luckhnow was cancled this time, lalaji's birthday was not celebrated as huge birthday party but by marrying off 22 couples who do not love each other but are in love with Mr Chari.

• What exactly is so lavish about Mission celebrations? At both celebs mentioned above, people slept on the floor, and got rained on and had to deal with ankle deep slush at all times. The food was extremely simple (but nice, I admit). The mosquitos were in great form. The bathing water was cold, and I shared a bathing bucket with several others. (I had a blast at the function though!)

SP:- pls read the circular about donations, function are not celebrated lavishly but money is asked for this purpose only.

• Citation - What exactly is meant by "individual thinking is suppressed"? Pls. explain.

SP:- There is no scope of individual thinking as questioning on exeixtance of brighter world etc, group thinking of accepting all foolish assumption is encouraged, same a mob mentality, where people are not able to decide between good and bad, a person can cause more damage in mob then as indiviual

• The mention of marital problems in the sittings with preceptors section - What's the connection to the sittings with preceptors? His problem in the article is with SRCM in general and not with sittings in particular (His wife practiced, became a serious abhyasi, and then left him after 10 years in SRCM). While you just have a single side of the story here, I wont contest it. May I suggest a "Criticism of Sahaj Marg" section where such general criticisms are placed. See the Art of Living page. I think, Don, that you had suggested this too?

SP:- There is nothing which can be praised in SRCM, hence page should be same. Don't try to hide facts.

• Constant remembrance - sorry - I don't get what's the connection to dogs barking with constant remembrance????

SP:- pls read SRCM site for details.

--Shashwat pandey 08:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

To Marathi Mulga

I cannot and will not comment about others but for you i can safely conclude that you represent the zombies category of people who live in this world, you are not in minority, rather you are in majority in external world, did u by any chance missed the KERA program on cults last Monday ? there is a heaven’s Gate cult, which has caused death of more then 6000 people, they all committed mass suicide, as they, like you believed that Christ will come to take them to heaven if they commit mass suicide, you people are in majority, but in places like wikipedia you will be in minority as here logical discussion is needed before any fact can be represented. There are many cults like SRCM who for their selfish needs are destroying life of many people, like yourself, who as they have become a zombie are unable to understand that this association is actually causing harm.

Kindly accept the fact that people in SRCM are indeed Zombies, allow me to demonstrate that.

1. What is a Zombie

Dictionary.com meaning

1. (in voodoo) a. The body of a dead person given the semblance of life, but mute and will-less, by a supernatural force, usually for some evil purpose.

2.Informal. a. A person whose behavior or responses are wooden, listless, or seemingly rote; automaton.

b. An eccentric or peculiar person.

2. How you are a Zombie

Given the fact that you accepted that SRCM is a cult group, and applies mind control over its people you are still taking about your long term association with this group, since you are immune to all external understandings, hence you failed to understand that SRCM has converted you into a zombie otherwise you would have immediately left the group once it was established that this is a genuine cult. Also you fail to understand and question few simple facts like SRCM claims to receive messages from brighter world and babuji is prime sender of those messages, whereas if you had an open eye you would have seen that Chari group has physically assaulted 60+ yrs old DIL of babuji, and they via their website claim that all masters were householder’s, now to any normal person this absolute contradiction would be visible that how come a householder not say a word in protest, and protect his own family, either he was not a householder to start with, or he is not sending any messages from brighter world, in either of cases it is established that this so called divine organization is liying to people, also note that these messages are sent only to Chari group, no other SRCM group be it ISRC or Shahjahanpur SRCM claim to receive any message from any brighter world except Chari group, hence it is clear once again that you have lost the power to think and question, hence this is how you qualify as a zombie. By the way are you one of those who have spent $ 250 for those message from brighter world ?

3. Why you are a Zombie.

Because of what you call as transmission, the condition which is achieved during what you call as transmission is that where brain cell die, more number of brain cells die more conditioned you will become, and will find it hard to come out of this cult control, this is a state of hallucination wherein you loose you power to think, and decide from right to wrong.

Second aspect is the constant mental pressure via preceptor’s this does not allow any scope of free will, as all thoughts etc must be reported to preceptor, hence it become very diffcult to take independent decision.

And finally the group meeting which you call as Bhandara’s and we call as Chari’s birthday bash, or mind conditioning camps, here you will find that mob mentality prevails, it is easier to instigate a mob then an individual, hence all cults of this world make sure that they have this opportunity of conditioning by developing this mob mentality. Have you never observed Muslims after Friday prayers? They are all charged up, in a mob individual is capable of causing more harm then isolated, and for conditioning these group meetings are must, all cults starting from Islam, to Amway they all follow this age old technique of brainwashing in groups.

Whereas if you try and study patanjali's Raja yoga it is in absolute contradiction to what is practiced in SRCM, this is another lie of this group.

Hence I hope you will first accept yourself as you are and then try to improve upon it, and become a normal human again, my aim is not to prove you in any degraded version but i am against gooblygoody talk as they make no sense to me, i hope as we move on you will come in terms with it, and accept facts as they are without any modifications, to suit requirement of any individual, it may sound rude to you, coz it is, because it is truth, and truth must be expressed as is, any modification to truth causes it to become a lie, i personally believe in speaking naked truth then to a cosmetic lie.

--Shashwat pandey 10:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

To All

I have added the much needed section that for abhyasi (now i can call them zombie's) they need no brains. I hope no-one has any problem with that

--Chips2133 23:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

To Chips

I have ahjusted one of ur heading, to provide accurate meaning, hope u agree with it, else we can discuss

--Shashwat pandey 01:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

TO ALL

Allo everyone

Just trying to keep it NPOV and added "according to" and "allegedly" etc I added quotes to the section added by SRCM shahjahanpur. The claim to have the "rigthts" to do that. I will not debate it unless someone else does so.

--J.d'arc 18:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

To 202.131.114.134

Your frustation can be understood, but kindly keep in mind that this is not an advertisment site, if you want to represnt any fact, then kindly discuss it before you make any changes.

Else there is always scope of edit war, there had been some interesting edit war on this page between marathi mulga and JS, before also, there is no need to repeat same thing again and again, pls discuss before representing any fact.

--Chips2133 19:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

To 122.168.70.29

Your input is appritiated a lot, but kindly keep in mind that truth cannot be remoulded to suit any-1's assumptions, previously it has been demonstrated that people in SRCM are indeed zombies, hence try to move out of this cult control and become a free human again.

--Shashwat pandey 19:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

To Jonomacdrones

The method is, if one feels any section is not appropriate fact templet with date should be provided, any new sections are always welcome, but removing without discussion is what qualifies as vandalism and not otherway round.

--Chips2133 20:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

To ALL or ANYONE

allo everyone

I ask for references on "criminal record" please. Civil court does not cause a "criminal record"

thank you kindly

--J.d'arc 00:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

as i understand, charges of murder are there on Mr. Chari... probably the other group will be able to provide the case details and online link of the case status if it is online, Chari is charged of murder for sure, as it is decleared in india based SRCM website itself, hence they should be able to provide any reference..., in any case charges does not prove anyone criminal but it does proves that the person is not qualified to be a spiritual MASTER as such, if he is pure, it is not possible that he will be charged with such serious crimes, he must have done something terribaly wrong if not actually murder, otherwise he would not be in this situation that he is charged for murder, he is not fit for spiritual guide with these charges, he must come out clean before he can claim to be representing GOD.

--Shashwat pandey 01:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

To Sunshine Shashwat and Chocolate Chips

Sorry - Babuji's birthday celebrations in my center coincide with a large workshop for half the US, so organizing the whole thing is taking up some of my time (BTW, you're all cordially invited). That's why I couldn't chime in, but have no fears - I'm back. I won't desert you. :)

Sunshine Shashwat - Take it easy, man - You've got me worried about your blood pressure.

MM: Citation: Where did Buddha et al say this?

SP:- Pls read Dhammpad, ref to chapter 2

MM - Where?

MM: An NGO is simply any non-governmental organization acc to Wikipedia. When and where did SRCM promise to help the poor? The charter was always to teach Sahaj Marg meditation. An NGO's charter can be for anything, from teaching folk music to promoting carpet weaving. I plan to start an NGO to keep minority Wikipedia editors safe. ;)

SP:- Pls see discussion by a 14 yrs abhyasi, also kindly refer to UN notification where as roles of SRCM has been discribed

MM: Can't find it in the 14 yr abhyasis blog. Pls. point to the UN thing you refer to here.

MM: Why is Chariji's birthday being singled out when the Mission celebrates the birthdays of three Masters? The last celebration I attended was Babuji's birthday last year in Raipur and the year before before that was babujis birthday celebs in Tiruppur.

SP:- April 30 birthday party at luckhnow was cancled this time, lalaji's birthday was not celebrated as huge birthday party but by marrying off 22 couples who do not love each other but are in love with Mr Chari.

MM: ????? Dude - What's the connection of your answer to my question? :)

MM: What exactly is so lavish about Mission celebrations? At both celebs mentioned above, people slept on the floor, and got rained on and had to deal with ankle deep slush at all times. The food was extremely simple (but nice, I admit). The mosquitos were in great form. The bathing water was cold, and I shared a bathing bucket with several others. (I had a blast at the function though!)

SP:- pls read the circular about donations, function are not celebrated lavishly but money is asked for this purpose only.

MM: OK then - We agree - "Lavish" comes out!

MM: Citation - What exactly is meant by "individual thinking is suppressed"? Pls. explain.

SP:- There is no scope of individual thinking as questioning on exeixtance of brighter world etc, group thinking of accepting all foolish assumption is encouraged, same a mob mentality, where people are not able to decide between good and bad, a person can cause more damage in mob then as indiviual

MM: I spent a LOT of time all alone at the last gathering - The only group pursuits were the twice-daily group meditations, volunteer work and the meals. I don't see any connection to mob mentality here honestly (unless you're saying the mob put something in my food). :)

MM: The mention of marital problems in the sittings with preceptors section - What's the connection to the sittings with preceptors? His problem in the article is with SRCM in general and not with sittings in particular (His wife practiced, became a serious abhyasi, and then left him after 10 years in SRCM). While you just have a single side of the story here, I wont contest it. May I suggest a "Criticism of Sahaj Marg" section where such general criticisms are placed. See the Art of Living page. I think, Don, that you had suggested this too?

SP:- There is nothing which can be praised in SRCM, hence page should be same. Don't try to hide facts.

MM: Constant remembrance - sorry - I don't get what's the connection to dogs barking with constant remembrance????

SP:- pls read SRCM site for details.

MM: And that's the best argument you could come up with? Come on sunshine - You can do better than this!

I'm a little disappointed - You had promised me a debate. But all I've seen is:

• a new name (Don't get me wrong - I like "Zombie" - It's your gift to me and I proudly wear it like a medal),
• and a whole lot of mud-flinging at the Mission (Again, not a problem - You're proving to be an ample source of the "zillat" part of the "Illat, Khillat, zillat" trio that Babuji said is necessary for spiritual growth).

You're obviously a well-read, smart man with a sharp intellect and a lot of knowledge at your disposal. I hope you wont deprive me of them by using simplistic justifications that essentially boil down to "Because I say so". Joan's asked you a legitimate question - Do you have hard proof? An FIR number perhaps? A press report? Something more concrete than an opinion? Pls. insert or this phrase will have to be removed.

On the whole, "If he were pure why would people mess with him": Just remember Jesus was crucified.

When the heck did I accept SRCM is a cult? I just accepted it's in that French govt. report. See, my dear Shashwat, that's the way it works here on Wiki world. A *legitimate* citation is the only thing that gives any text the right to stay in.

I'd like you to please refer to the Wiki NPOV policy for a second: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)". Nobody has an issue with you entering your point of view, but you may not delete the opposite point of view, however much you disagree with it.

Finally - Thanks for the tutorial on Zombies. I'm weighing whether I want to call you "Sunshine" or "Hajmola" (Like Hajmola, you're an acquired taste, man)

And Chocolate Chips - You didn't really expect all that stuff you put in to stay, did you? Naughty boy! I'll write you a separate note. BTW, funny how you obey Chariji when it's convenient (on not referring to him as Master) - Remember that in India, "Master" is how everyone refers to their teacher in school. It doesn't have the same "Master-Slave" connotation as it does in the west.

Awright - I'm gonna go clean up after you bad boys. I don't have the time to write you these lengthy love letters on an ongoing basis, so now on, all conversations will be in the form of edits.

Ciao!

MM --Marathi mulga 07:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Attempt at Concensus by 4d-don

Wow we are as divided as ONE apple pie in the sky, and in the "duality" of words.

1. The word "Master" seems to be a point of contention.

• Chari says he's not a Master of Spirituality and does not want to be called Master according to his "speeches".
• SRCM(tm) claims that Chari is their Master in all their litterature and Chari, as president must authorize that litterature.
• SRCM (Shahjahanpur) and ISRC (KC Narayana) claim that Babuji is the "one" and only "eternal" Master of Sahaj Marg.
• SRCM (generic) uses Master to signify the current Guru and also the DIVINE...That is very confusing. Is this intentional? We may have to use another word as to claim to be the DIVINE is not a "NPOV" and is certainly not "verifiable".

Could we just use another word so as to reach temporary "concensus" such as "leader" or "spokesperson" etc..

If we don't use another word for Master, then Master has to be qualified until the succession issue is resolved" and then we can at least deal with the "cult" versus "spiritual movement" issue one point at a time.

It seems that if the MASTER claims to not be a MASTER, then we should not call him MASTER!! It seems that that part of the confusion is created by SRCM(tm) or Chari's faction.

2. Please use only "referenced" material and NPOV. NOT OPINIONS or one's own POINT OF VIEW!!! That debate will go on forever without resolution.

3. Let us, as true Wikipedians seek out a "balance" where all "Truths" are available to the "reader" and not just OUR TRUTH. Do not "slash and burn" what you don't agree with but try and "tweak" it or add "YOUR Truth" to the statement if possible. You can add another paragraph or another section without "duplicating" the same "heading" such as "Constant Remembrance" (there are two sections by the same name...

Let's show some "spirituality" and "intellect" as we deal with words and emotions...

You gotta laugh b'cause it's not funny!  ;-))

4d-don

To Marathi Mulga

Unfortunately I have to travel for sometime but I will join u guys soon, and reply to your above statement then, but I would like to explain something before I take this short break, that here we are not to prove anyone anything, its about a harmful group, those who are saying it to be harmful have experienced it, there cannot be smoke without a fire, there is something terribly wrong with this group which is causing people to speak against it, if it was divine group, then people would not have suffered at all.

Its really amazing to see how brainwashing actually works, MM, do u really believe that Babuji is sending messages from a place called brighter world !!! do u buy this dogma ? what would you call a person who claims that he is talking to dead people ? God? Master? Or a stupid? Try to find out what is the problem with this group, why is it listed as a cult even by the governments? Why should people love Chari to become divine? Why can't they become divine by loving their family members instead? why should there be any place for any-1 other then your spouse, do you feel, if same love is towards spouse or parents, will it bring any other result ? Why create this love for some-1 unknown, untraceable, can Chari help those in need? This is all cult approach, nothing more then that, it is not expecting back, but love cannot be demanded, let me confess one thing here, I have very high respect for Swami Vivekananda, only after reading his works, I have no communication from any brighter world, i am not member of RKM either, infect I know no-1 from RKM, but still i have very high respect for SV, at the same time there is nothing of what is called as love, I have God present in front of me, in form of my parents, my wife, my friends, my relatives, my society, in you also, i have never read any statement wherein SV said, loving master will bring good result, on the contrary it is love which bring good result, and it does NOT depend on the person whom you love, if you agree with this statement, then all fallacies of SRCM will fall immediately.

i do not belong to any group or sect or religion, i am a free person hence i love all, i have no identification hence nothing causes me any problem, if u speak bad about SV, i will not feel bad coz there is no identification.

What Sahaj Marg is doing on the contrary? it is creating this identification, at the cost of family life of the member concerned, and this is why it is dangerous.

Before i take this short break i would state that 'A thorough study of the natural laws and truths of life is absolutely necessary before venturing into the spiritual path. Without the necessary equipments such as your conviction about the unreality of earthly life, and without burning dispassion and self-restraint, by taking to the spiritual path you are liable to be lost in the dark dungeon of despair and frustration. There is no use in keeping your legs in two boats.'

--Shashwat pandey 19:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

To 4d-don

Don - You're the voice of balance. :)

I'd be fine with an alternate word - "teacher" comes to mind, but open to suggestions.

I'd like to table a similar proposal on the use of "cult" vs. "Mission". One's too anti-SRCM, the other's too pro-SRCM, it may seem. Can we stick to something neutral like "group"? Again, open to suggestions.

I'd be happy to use only referenced facts here as opposed to opinions in all that I wrote, except everything I wrote mysteriously has disappeared. :)

I agree with the balanced POV. Think about it, guys - Along comes a reader, sees a honking big "Neutrality" warning on top of the page, and then reads a bunch of hate-passages (or pro-SRCM advertising for that matter). Do we think people are fools and won't know this is an agenda-loaded page? Why would they believe a word they read here? I could pull out what little pro-SRCM stuff there is in here and make it a completely skewed and unbelievable page (I won't, no worries). My advice: Keep it balanced and not too off-the-wall, and you're a lot more likely to get an audience that considers your POV.

Travel safe, Sunshine.

--Marathi mulga 19:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Marathi by 4d-don

Hi MM

"Teacher" is "Guru" and that is OK if we don't claim "good" or "Bad" teacher (POV) and it carries less "authority" in the west (occident) as "Guru" and "Master" which are synonymous with "expert" (guru), and "Master" is a degree that one earns after a University study which is not the case in Sahaj Marg where one is "chosen" by the current Master under "alledged" divine inspiration.

The "cult" term is a little more difficult as the word "secte" (french) has been used in Official reports to European Governments and has to be used as a translation of the french "secte" if those reports are "referenced" but we who are not "authorities" on cults or "sectes", can refer to a "group" without using the word "Cult" except in reference to such studies. I would not stop the use of the word hut would certainly limit it to the reports by credible "OTHERS".

I agree that Mission is almost "Christian fundamentalism" with their Foreign Missions to the "little pagans" that in my days were supposed to address "hunger and famine" and other social problems but that in fact, looking back, just built churches and bases in "foreign" countries. A token of social work was performed so as to keep their "charitable" and hence "tax exempt" status, and not pay taxes "at HOME".

The UNO's DPI is another "whitewash" like the "charitable" tax exempt status and someone should question it in light of the actual "donations" to other "charities" and direct "charitable work" without political or religious strings attached. Medical service for abhyasis and their children is not "charity" and a token poor does not "qualify" one as "tax exempt". SRCM(tm) falls under the "Education" category of the DPI Program of UNO. Is the "Whispers from the Brigher World" something to EDUCATE others about. How about GOD is MALE? Or the opther sexist quote of Chari that "women can't be MASTERS" because they are not "destructive" enough? Is that not in contravention to the UN Charter?

To belong to UN DPI program, a society has to be "democratic". There is ample evidence that even though Chari claims the opposite, SRCM is not "democratic" and that the President, the directors, prefects and preceptors, the "zonals" (sounds like Scientology..lol) are appointed by the PRESIDENT, not "voted" on. So to my mind, they are "delinquent" in their "UN" membership until they become "democratic" and should in all "honour" remove themselves from this program so as to not scandalize the "wonderful" DPI program just like the religious or "sectic" (lol) "Jehovah's witness" have done. They voluntarily withdrew their membership rather than become "democratic".

In SRCM (Canada), the majority of Directors are not even Canadian and Patrick Fleury of France was up to this year, on the Canadian Board of Directors of SRCM(Canada). The change from a Canadian control of the SRCM(canada) to a "foreign" control preceeded the transfer of $60,000.00 from the "SRCM (canada) to ???. Forensic audit needed... lol. Although the Abhyasis and Preceptors claim that money raised in one country stays in that country. Links to that "loss of control" is available. But is it necessary? In a "free society" should that not be "explained" and the control issued addressed and rectified so as to BE DEMOCRATIC, not just say IT. I will leave it up to the concensus wether that should be in this article. I will leave it up to the members of the SRCM(tm) to assure that their "spiritual" society does not "misrepresent" themselves to recieve the (ego boosting) inclusion to UNO organizations genuine work of "peace and Harmony" in our world. DEMOCRACY MEANS control by the PEOPLE...DO YOU VOTE ON CHARI?? Do you dare? Is SRCM not misrepresenting their DEMOCRATIC status? Does SAHAJ MARG unite? Really? Ask Babuji's family, and Dr Varadachari's family or other families of ex-members! MISREPRESENTATION! PLEASE correct!

Those are good suggestions. I agree with you on your choice of words....

PS..The same debate is going on in the Christian seminars on the Bible where the word "Rabbi", meaning "Teacher" has been translated as Master in many cases. There is a movement to "correct" that. Jesus, the Christ, was not a Master of anything and his claim of being the Son of God is explained by John (the mystic) who says that anyone who believes in God is the Son of God. Or in our term: if one believes in ONE, then we, as part of the ALL (Creation) are all "OFFSPRINGS" or "CREATIONS" of the ONE. We are ONE made TWO! Much as Jesus, as a believer in the LOGOS was the WORD made Flesh. All metaphors...and not to be taken litterally. The WORD was not actually a word but according to the GREEKs (the first Bible Compilation), the word LOGOS meant "LOGIC as defined by Sound using WORDS". The translation in Latin and French use the word "VERB", like "MOTION", "ACTION" or "ENERGY". The Rigid "WORD" is the one that the FUNDAMENTALISTS and LITERALISTS use and hence "DIVIDE" their community into those who can believe that "MYTH" and those who agree with the GREEKS and as the Children of ONE, such as VIVEKANANDA and Ramakrishna understand what a "metaphor" is and distinguish it from REALITY.

So we are not alone and these debates are healthy for any Society specially as we near a "GLOBAL" culture. We are not goint to kill one another in the name of "spirituality" as we are doing in the name of "RELIGION" are we? I don't think so!! We will engage in a debate of the "COMMONER" and not leave that function to "elite" and "experts" and "the leaders"....The group is our responsibility by the fact that we "belong" to it. WE are the power in all GROUPS...NONE should give it away lightly until the person who is to be our "PROXY" is CONTINUOUSLY tested and "WATCHED", and HEARD. The autocrats should be MUZZLED if they "DIVIDE" the PEOPLE...lol  ;-))

It is a privilege and I am grateful to meet you all...we will eventually all "KNOW" one another. The Technology will not let us hide much longer. And that is GOOD... ONLY the BAD people want to HIDE...lol  ;-))

4d-don

To Don & Sunshine Shashwat

Here's another suggestion - There are very divergent views jostling for a place here. There is no way we can accommodate them all in here AND still keep the page readable AND not feel like what we want to say is being diluted. Here's what I propose:

Put in the bare bones facts on this page - quotable from authoritative sources. The pro and anti sections should be no bigger than a couple paragraphs. Then link the page to your personal blog where you're free to speak your mind at length. All blog links *MUST* be added to this page.

The benefits:

• The readers of this page can get the gist of Sahaj Marg and the pros and cons in a nutshell, and can choose to delve deeper in whichever direction they prefer.
• The writers are unobstructed in expressing their POV on their blogs by the wiki edits they're getting here from people that disagree.
• We all co-exist happily ever after. (I know, I know - I'm dreaming here).

Sunshine - To the point on "No smoke without a fire", and the no. of people leaving the Mission, I'd like to respectfully draw your attention to the 200,000 abhyasis still practicing worldwide (We can debate that number till kingdom come but nobody will dispute that it's a big number). That's a lot of smoke too, don't you think?

Is there even a 1% chance that *maybe* they know something that you don't? Sunshine - Why are you so angry that these people disagree with your view of the world? You are entitled to your beliefs, whatever they may be, but so are they. Leave them alone, dude.

Another thing - Point me to one movement (spiritual or otherwise) in history that attained that scale and had absolutely no detractors or opposition of any kind.

Don and SS - You both joined and left the Mission at a time and place of your choosing. Did anyone block you from doing so? You always have the option to leave at any point in the program and therein lies the democracy (This is more than we can say, for example, about North Korea or Cuba - Examples of the anti-democracy). Think of SM as an educational program - If you don't like it, you're free to drop out. The sunk costs in dollars and cents are minimal. But no educational program I've been on has been built by popular vote (If they were, all the tough study material would get voted right out, wouldn't it?). So why would you expect that here?

Just some rambling thoughts on a slow Saturday morning....  :)

--Marathi mulga 18:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Dispute

I'm inserting an accuracy warning (in addition to the NPOV warning) for this page. Factual errors abound here, and article readers shouldn't be misguided during the time we discuss this here on the talk page. Wikipedia guidelines expect this banner be inserted if there are more than 5 statements that are labelled dubious and are under discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Accuracy_dispute

This section is to discuss this dispute as per wiki guidelines. I'd like to invite other editors to comment on the following:

• "It is established that this cult applies mind control over its cult members" - Who established this? It's an opinion being passed off for a fact.
• "There are atleast 5 mentions in this article (A redundancy too - But that's a separate issue) about "many" families being troubled and broken by Sahaj Marg. Evidence however is only anecdotal.
• While Shashwat agreed the Mission gatherings aren't lavish, that comment has been put back in.
• Individual thinking is suppressed - An unsubstantiated opinion again.
• Cleaning: Smoke exiting from anus - We'd established that that isn't the case above.
• Two claims of SRCM being an NGO working for the upliftment of the poor - No citations yet
• Claims of sittings with preceptors being "mental sex" - Untrue. Not even sure where to start debating this. :)
• Constant remembrance causes adherents to become isolated from his or her responsibility - Writers opinion, not citable fact.
• Sahaj Marg results in memory loss - Dubious
• Transmission is similar to hypnosis - Two mentions - No citation or explanation on this POV

I'd *really* like to find common ground with all POVs on this page, and I know that there are several others like me. However, when such extreme, unbalanced and unsubstantiated opinions get voiced, it becomes almost impossible to find that neutral ground. In addition, this article stops being an encyclopedia article and starts being a vehicle for a message of hate.

--Marathi mulga 19:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply to MM by 4d-don April 21, 07

I agree with your first proposal and I think that the original article had reached that as there were a minimum of "edits" for quite a while, and the article was not as "extreme" and "confusing" as it is now. There are now three issues playing out and I keep saying that we should wait for the judgement from the courts to settle one issue, the one of succession. (I hope there are no appeals).

The other two issues are a little complicated and the pro and con to all sections material are difficult to enter in "terse" and "concise" terms as the issues are complicated. There may not be agreement in even that. But again, it's worth a try. Anything to reach concensus but not a "gutting" or "hiding" of the "controversial material" completely.

Your definition of democracy however is not mine and I still hold that SRCM and other like groups are not "democratic" in the sense on "voting" for the leader and the "representatives". Chari, the PRESIDENT (Political leader) is there for LIFE and the MASTER (SPIRITUAL leader) and Master for ETERNITY according to some, choses his own successor and as Spiritual and Political Leader will not and can not be "OPPOSED SRCM is not "democratic". The Cardinals (at least) in the Catholic church vote for the next pope, so the cronyism and nepotism is "reduced" but not eliminated. The "old boys networK" in the Catholic church did not give up that power easily. So Statement and claims of "Democracy" by Chari (the authority) are fair use.

PS..I left when Chari joined... Now when one member leaves, there is damage (division) in the family because of the "divisive" nature of the statements and techniques since Chari that targets "keeps the female" (subservient, passive, obedient, and traditionnally disempowered) and rejects the Male (a possible rival). So we leave freely but we lose a part of our family (the females) to this group as the men either leave or "die" of stress related diseases. Some couples are more lucky and leave as a "unit". Is it mind control? I think so! The Material disempowers women by statements such as "GOD is MALE", "Women can't be Masters's because they are not capable of destruction (cosmic)enough". So since they want to please the MASTER, they try and show him how destructive they can be, by destroying their "relationship" with their mate to acheive "liberation" from the attachements of "family". That is the gist of the testimonials that I received and that I personallyh experienced in Sahaj Marg in the last years (10). Statements by preceptors are even more "extreme" such as "I would not live with someone who is not an abhyasi", etc... Research how many broken marriages either through seperation, death (of the husband). Research the ratio men to women and then you may think that "mind control" could be at play. Targeting by sex and age is certainly "obvious". Seminars in Europe where anyone older than 40 can't attend??? Control?

4d-don --don 20:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Rply to Dispute by 4d-don April 21, 07

I agree with the accuracy warning...

Rather that get into all the issue, anecdotal, non NPOV, opinions, weighted or emotionally-charged made up words and phrases, etc. should not be in the article. That is all "discussion page" material.

But the section on Mind control can be debated until the cows come home. The material states that "the Master takes control of the Anhyasi" and the "abhyasi" is not "responsible" for him/herself and that the Master is "responsible" for him/her. The abhyasis is to be a "living dead" in the hands of the Master (the funeral director). No thought or vestige of the "abhyasis" is to remain etc...

Does this not show, by the admission of the material" (Chari), that there is an element of "control" by the Master on the MIND of the "SERF" (in the material) (the abhyasi). One may rhetorically say the control is "voluntary" but that is a grey area that "Citizens Assemblies" in Europe are tackling. If you can convince me that I will go to "the UN-BRIGHT" or DARK world if I don't follow you, and you can "terrorise me intellectually" with horror stories of POWER of your MASTER who can destroy a part of the COSMOS according to himself, then the most GULLIBLE and naive of our species (youths, women?) can thus "controlled" by their own lust for POWER or PROTECTION, being already "disempowered by society. The control issue can be referenced to, and is in, the MATERIAL written by CHARI and is not a POV but is CHARI's POV. (mythic power used for "control")

Most western men now reject those "myths", having been "terrorized" by the best, the Catholics (Hell, SATAN, the Plagues, the curses, etc..) and hence the "division" in the family of the abhyasis of Sahaj Marg as the Youth and the Women are targeted by the MISSION.

Redundancies and all the other clutter and syntax, grammar and spelling, I will correct after the waters have settled a bit. So I will not comment on those now. I agree that there is no need for redundancies. Anyone can take them out and anyone can put them in.

Keep the faith but use LOGIC...;-))

4d-don--don 20:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

To MM

• "It is established that this cult applies mind control over its cult members" - Who established this? It's an opinion being passed off for a fact.

SP :- Govt. reports and cult watch groups after a indepth study of cults, these lists have clearly mentioned SRCM as a mind controlling cult, they have done enough study before listing it, and there is no doubt in accepting these listings as govt. or these cult watch groups have nothing to gain by listing this perticular group as a cult, hence their study is not quationable !!! hence it can safely be conculded that SRCM is a established cult group.

• "There are atleast 5 mentions in this article (A redundancy too - But that's a separate issue) about "many" families being troubled and broken by Sahaj Marg. Evidence however is only anecdotal.

SP:- here is another one, in wiki discussion as well as linked discussion page, a gay family broken which as a consequence has led to breaking down of another family. All of them may not comeup with a blog expressing their concern regarding the personal harms caused by this cult.

• While Shashwat agreed the Mission gatherings aren't lavish, that comment has been put back in.

SP:- It seems you fail to read the argument, they are not lavish, but donation is asked only to make it lavish, this is established, if you see the registration form and the doantion form, (I have added the link), mind conditioning camps, are lavish or not is a POV, but donation is asked for making it lavish is a fact, since you have your personal testimonial that these mind conditioning camps are not lavish, hence we can safly add this section “Lies of SRCM Chari group” you can provide all your testiminial there. !! ;)

• Individual thinking is suppressed - An unsubstantiated opinion again.

SP:- This I have already discussed, wherein it was demonstrated that in groups individual thinking is surpressed, this is the main objective of all the cults when they organize these group meetings, this is also established beyond doubts any openion otherwise is a POV

• Cleaning: Smoke exiting from anus - We'd established that that isn't the case above.

SP:- From where the smoke is suppose to come out, kindly cite any location other then anus !!!! which place smoke is suppose to come out ?

• Two claims of SRCM being an NGO working for the upliftment of the poor - No citations yet

SP:- Could not find UN DPI program list, here this can be chanded to education and as they indeed do not work for poor remotly even, hence I agree to this point and will remove it, once I have recerched it enough, I need time for this to change. If you have better options lets discuss.

• Claims of sittings with preceptors being "mental sex" - Untrue. Not even sure where to start debating this. :)

SP:- See this, debate is alredy on, also refer to defination on wiki about imaginative_sex you can start from here, take the case study of a male and a female preceptor sitting togather in a closed room, imagining things, lets get to the roots to it, it is not meditation for sure, we need to come to a conclusion as what this is.

• Constant remembrance causes adherents to become isolated from his or her responsibility - Writers opinion, not citable fact.

SP:- What in your view will be condition of a person who is constantly in rememberence of Mr. Chari ? Also one more view, what should be the condition of a couple during intercourse ? should they be in constant rememberence of Chari during that period as well ? what is the stand of SRCM chari group regarding this stage viz a viz constant rememberance? pls clarify else this note must be added that adherents are suppose to think about Mr Chari while they are in bed with their spouse. Pls discuss before this statement should be added in the main page.

Otherwise this can also be safly concluded that constant is not constant ;)

• Sahaj Marg results in memory loss - Dubious

SP:- The process of transmission, wherein people have beocme emotionally unstale, we have discussed the POV before as well, when we placed the hindu-forum link

• Transmission is similar to hypnosis - Two mentions - No citation or explanation on this POV

SP:- Added the explaination see Hypnosis

--Shashwat pandey 10:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Welcome Back, Sunshine

Hey - How are you, man?

The journey doesn't seem to have changed your sunny disposition or your arguments. Everything above is still some variation of "Because I say so".

• "It is established that this cult applies mind control over its cult members" - Who established this? It's an opinion being passed off for a fact. SP :- Govt. reports and cult watch groups after a indepth study of cults, these lists have clearly mentioned SRCM as a mind controlling cult, they have done enough study before listing it, and there is no doubt in accepting these listings as govt. or these cult watch groups have nothing to gain by listing this perticular group as a cult, hence their study is not quationable !!! hence it can safely be conculded that SRCM is a established cult group.

MM - Everything is questionable, dude. That's what you taught me, right? I don't accept it, because there are still hundreds of governments that don't say SRCM is a cult. The UN doesn't agree. Hundreds of companies (including mine) have included SRCM in their matching donations programs as a valid non-profit. You have one source - the French govt. report that you are basing all the "cult" stuff on. I have hundreds that implicitly think otherwise.

Your premise is based on the diary. I have never shown my diary to anyone in 12 years. And on not sharing thoughts with family members, good catch --> another dubious statement!

• While Shashwat agreed the Mission gatherings aren't lavish, that comment has been put back in.

SP:- It seems you fail to read the argument, they are not lavish, but donation is asked only to make it lavish, this is established, if you see the registration form and the doantion form, (I have added the link), mind conditioning camps, are lavish or not is a POV, but donation is asked for making it lavish is a fact, since you have your personal testimonial that these mind conditioning camps are not lavish, hence we can safly add this section “Lies of SRCM Chari group” you can provide all your testiminial there. !! ;)

MM - Websters dictionary says this about the word "lavish": "marked by profusion or excess". What about the gathering is in profusion or excess? How again does asking for donation equate to lavishness again?

• Individual thinking is suppressed - An unsubstantiated opinion again.

SP:- This I have already discussed, wherein it was demonstrated that in groups individual thinking is surpressed, this is the main objective of all the cults when they organize these group meetings, this is also established beyond doubts any openion otherwise is a POV

MM - aka "Because I say so".....  :)

• Cleaning: Smoke exiting from anus - We'd established that that isn't the case above.

SP:- From where the smoke is suppose to come out, kindly cite any location other then anus !!!! which place smoke is suppose to come out ?

MM - From the back according to Sahaj Marg. But if we're discussing Shashwat Marg..... :)

• Two claims of SRCM being an NGO working for the upliftment of the poor - No citations yet

SP:- Could not find UN DPI program list, here this can be chanded to education and as they indeed do not work for poor remotly even, hence I agree to this point and will remove it, once I have recerched it enough, I need time for this to change. If you have better options lets discuss.

MM - Take your time - Happy to wait, but till you do, that "does not work for the poor" statement should come off. It adds no value.

• Claims of sittings with preceptors being "mental sex" - Untrue. Not even sure where to start debating this. :)

SP:- See this, debate is alredy on, also refer to defination on wiki about imaginative_sex you can start from here, take the case study of a male and a female preceptor sitting togather in a closed room, imagining things, lets get to the roots to it, it is not meditation for sure, we need to come to a conclusion as what this is.

MM - You're citing a source that is YOUR blog that contains a passage with your opinion - That's not a neutral, citable source! This is another "because I say so" argument, man. BTW, just a wild guess - You're single, aren't you, Sunshine?

• Constant remembrance causes adherents to become isolated from his or her responsibility - Writers opinion, not citable fact.

SP:- What in your view will be condition of a person who is constantly in rememberence of Mr. Chari ? Also one more view, what should be the condition of a couple during intercourse ? should they be in constant rememberence of Chari during that period as well ? what is the stand of SRCM chari group regarding this stage viz a viz constant rememberance? pls clarify else this note must be added that adherents are suppose to think about Mr Chari while they are in bed with their spouse. Pls discuss before this statement should be added in the main page.

Otherwise this can also be safly concluded that constant is not constant ;)

MM - Sunshine - Where the heck did you travel to, coz you've returned with just one thing on your mind. Babuji has said constant remembrance is not memory - Pls. refer the SMRTI book on constant remembrance on that point. You are free to add whatever you want to the page - Expect to have it "aggressively edited" as per wiki rules though.

• Sahaj Marg results in memory loss - Dubious

SP:- The process of transmission, wherein people have beocme emotionally unstale, we have discussed the POV before as well, when we placed the hindu-forum link

MM - Still dubious! The hindu-link says nothing on this topic - Pls. quote.

• Transmission is similar to hypnosis - Two mentions - No citation or explanation on this POV

SP:- Added the explaination see Hypnosis

MM - Everyone knows what's hypnosis. But there's no connection to this article!

Sunshine - You need to add rigor to your arguments with more background facts and figures. Keeping on pointing to your own blog doesn't prove a thing.

I'll be spending some quality time editing this article shortly. Till then - Welcome back to the edit board, Sunshine.

MM

--Marathi mulga 23:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

To MM

MM - Everything is questionable, dude. That's what you taught me, right? I don't accept it, because there are still hundreds of governments that don't say SRCM is a cult. The UN doesn't agree. Hundreds of companies (including mine) have included SRCM in their matching donations programs as a valid non-profit. You have one source - the French govt. report that you are basing all the "cult" stuff on. I have hundreds that implicitly think otherwise.

SP:- Kindly allow me to explain something to you, everything is indeed questionable, at the same time, there is an answer to every question it is my mistake only that I did not informed you about this aspect as well, my ignorance, I thought probably you will be able to understand that for every question there has to be an answer coz without answer question cannot exist, this you failed to understand because you are by now not able to take any independent decision, 12 yrs is a long time indeed. Those lists are prepared by those who have studied only cults and have come to this conclusion that SRCM is a cult, I m not sure if your company is also doing study on cults…

Your premise is based on the diary. I have never shown my diary to anyone in 12 years. And on not sharing thoughts with family members, good catch --> another dubious statement!

SP:- This is the method, with sole purpose of exercising mind control over adherents, what else is the purpose of sharing personal diary with preceptor and the cult leader ? if it is not for mind conditioning ? this demonstrates that this cult applies mind control, and if you do not show your diary to your preceptor, then you are not a serious abhyasi, as you have claimed b4, you do not follow the method, hence you are not an serious abhyasi. You are simply wasting your time, as neither you are serious in practice nor you are able to think logically… hence you are in middle of nothing i.e you are lost … ;) LOL

MM - Websters dictionary says this about the word "lavish": "marked by profusion or excess". What about the gathering is in profusion or excess? How again does asking for donation equate to lavishness again?

SP:- Read again, the circuler, you are moving in the right direction, keep moving. I will not answer this perticuler argument at this point of time, will give you some time to understand this. If you fail then we will come back to this.

MM - aka "Because I say so".....  :)

SP :- establish it otherwise ;)

MM - From the back according to Sahaj Marg. But if we're discussing Shashwat Marg..... :)

SP:- That is also back, kindly allow me to demonstrate something here, why do you think you have my name here ? is it not possible to create a temp identiy and discuss hiding behind a fake name ? there is a reason… which you fail to see, and this precisely is the reason, when logical arguments are over one needs to start personal attacks, and for that you need somebody, you are movnig in a pre-defined path, personal attacks implies that all logical grounds are over, have patience if you have truth I can be established, you don’t have to loose control over yourself and start personal comments.

MM - Take your time - Happy to wait, but till you do, that "does not work for the poor" statement should come off. It adds no value.

SP:- It was your stand only that SRCM does not work for poor, why a U turn now ???? don’t you feel you are on a shakey ground ? think again.

MM - You're citing a source that is YOUR blog that contains a passage with your opinion - That's not a neutral, citable source! This is another "because I say so" argument, man. BTW, just a wild guess - You're single, aren't you, Sunshine?

SP:- There are also comments from zombies as well I am just responding, you had asked from where to start I have provided you the starting point. Where do you find contradiction ?? pls explain … hey man, why are you so worried about my marital status ? you have some-1 in site or what ??? this is not the proper place to discuss that dear, come back to your senses.

MM - Sunshine - Where the heck did you travel to, coz you've returned with just one thing on your mind. Babuji has said constant remembrance is not memory - Pls. refer the SMRTI book on constant remembrance on that point. You are free to add whatever you want to the page - Expect to have it "aggressively edited" as per wiki rules though.

SP:- Russia.. I am still here.. read the chari group explanation about constant remembrence…. I am not going to provide any link as such here, you have to do some study as well you may come across some more absured objects in Chari group while looking for constant remembrece… Chari successorship of babuji is still pending in court ;) LOL lets discuss before we add any comments I have no objections in discussion…

MM - Still dubious! The hindu-link says nothing on this topic - Pls. quote

SP:- It can be demonstrated problems discussed there are interlinked, memory loss and emotional unstability and mental irritation etc have basically same root that is Sahaj Marg.

MM - Everyone knows what's hypnosis. But there's no connection to this article!

SP:- Try this.. read the link of hypnosis and then come back and see the outcome of Sahaj Marg, then comeback to this question again.

'there is something that we would like to know, before we discuss any further, do you believe in that brighter world and those messages from that brighter world and that mysterious French lady !!! babuji sending messages from brighter world, 24 yrs after his death !!! do you buy this dogma ?? we need to know your current state of mind so that we can reply accordingly ...'

--Shashwat pandey 06:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

To Everyone

Allo

I read you everyday but don't enter the debate. Too deep. I use your info in Europe wher I work on SRCM info there.

Notice this in German: http://www.relinfo.ch/srcm/info.html

It mentions "mirror image ritual". do anyone know what that is? It seems to mean SPIRITUAL. Interesting in view of MIND CONTROL debate.

"Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari (named “Chariji”) states that Babuji claimed himself 13 years after the death of his master as Lalaji's mirror-image-ritual representative. His work began with the transmission of Meditationskraft. (method?)"

tanx for the debate and the info

--Roicharlemagne 17:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

To Everyone

I remove the advertising for bedding in the activities section

tanx

--Roicharlemagne 16:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

CLEANUP

Hi all...

I cleaned up some of the syntax, spelling, grammar, repeats, duplications etc...and did not do any content edits.

There is still more work to do but I thought I would stop there and see if there were any reactions...I will continue the cleanup next week unless I hear some comments..

4d-don...--don 16:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Small Change

Some syntax etc have been changed and clearity about CR and sitting is also provided. Those who disagree kindly discuss before editing it.

--Shashwat pandey 21:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

New section added

New section of attack on children and forced divorces/marriges etc have been added in the page, this will give a clear picture about the spirituality of this group.

Those who disagree kindly discuss before removing any content.

--Shashwat pandey 06:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

To Shashwat from 4d-don, May 9

Shashwat...

I edited the readability and then took out some "un-referenced" claim ... All claims should be referenced to a credible authority and not just "one unknown person". After the edits stop, you should re-read and make sure that all your claims about this group are "backed up" by credible "references" if they are not already... Any claims that come from the "editor" (you or I) are not acceptable as WIKI...as they are not NPOV.

Thanks for your understanding and all your work...

4d-don--don 16:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

To Shashwat from 4d-don

Hi Shashwat...

If you are finished the changes, there is a POV that you can think about.

Sahaj Marg is the technique...SRCM is the GROUP

So your first statement: Sahaj Marg is a "mind-controlling, brain-washing group, beside being a non NPOV is also not accurate as the technique is not a group. To adhere to WIKI philosophy, we should stay away from opinions and keep this page to the "TECHNIQUE" and the other page to "THE GROUP"...

If you agree, could you adjust that first sentence so it reflects WIKI philosophy and is accurate to the article about the "technique".

Thanks for all your hard work...and in respect, I bless you...

4d-don...--don 19:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

It is totally unacceptable to refer to the subject as a "mind-controlling, brain-washing group". If reliable sources have called it that then we can say so later in the article. This article needs a serious overhaul, and should prbably be stubbed (taken down to nothing) so editors can start from scratch. -Will Beback · † · 06:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

To WillbeBack

Wiki is a place where people seek information, Sahaj Marg method is a mind controlling and brainwashing, method, it has been established, beyond any scope of doubt, the nucence created by Sahaj Marg has not only instigated governments but also various groups working for public good, to lable this organization as harmful and dangerous cult for public, hence, as a resposible editors and citizens of this world, it is our moral responsibility to make sure, no one is trapped in lies spread by the group, if you disagree, pls discuss and present your POV, before removing any section, additions are always welcome

--Shashwat pandey 06:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

People come to Wikipeida looking for neutral material. This article is not neutral. Please review our core policies, especially WP:NPOV. I'll see about cleaning up this article to bring it up to Wikipedia standards. We can certainly include all the verifiable information, good and bad. But we must do so in a neutral manner. That's non-negotiable. -Will Beback · † · 06:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed...

there are two correction's however,

first Sahaj Marg is not a group per-se, its the said method, group is Shree Ram Chandra Mission, that is disputed, Sahaj Marg of Chari group is not disputed

second, dispute header, what contents of the page are disputed ?... that should go, in near future, all disputed content must be discussed, agreed upon, and then the page must be made clean without the header, that this is a disputed page.

Welcome all discussions about each and every topic of this page.