Talk:Salsa (sauce)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cilantro

Coriander is the UK English name, whereas it's known as cilantro in US English. Although it was a common ingredient in British food in the 15th and 16th Centuries, it became less common there until the 20th Century. As such, when European settlers encountered in in Mexico, they adopted the Spanish name because they'd never encountered it before. I apologise for my furious yet linguistically challenged countrymen below, and suggest that if they want to rail against 19th Century Americanisms, they write to the Times.

For what it's worth, from a culinary standpoint, coriander are dried seeds from the Coriandum Sativum plant, while cilantro is the fresh leafy portion of the same plant. It is thought to be Mediterranean in origin, can be traced back to Egypt. It's used far more in Asian cuisines (Chinese, Thai) than in Mexican, where it is a comparatively recent arrival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.9.229.177 (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

(moved from comment in article):

'cilantro' is Spanish; 'coriander' is English. Let's avoid speaking Spanglish!

both "cilantro" and "tomatillo" are English words that have been borrowed from Spanish. They're in English dictionaries, and it seems appropriate to at least mention the words most commonly used in the context of cuisine from Spanish-speaking countries. In fact, both "cilantro" and "tomatillo" are more commonly used than "coriander" and "husk tomato", respectively, on the web in English. [1] [2] Nohat 16:29, 2004 Mar 13 (UTC)

I agree that cilantro , tomatillo, and rooster are the English words most commonly used (world-wide) to describe these things. Since they are the most common terms, I believe that they should be listed first, with the non-common variants listed after. The non-common variants should be kept, especially if there are people who use them as standard. Is this simply an American vs. British English issue? Ben James Ben 03:01, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

Similarly, instances of "rooster" outnumber "cockerel" by a factor of more than 20 to 1: [3], but I think the compromise of including both is probably best. Of course, cock outnumbers rooster by a factor of almost 30 to 1, but I have a feeling most instances of the word "cock" are not references to birds. Nohat 16:39, 2004 Mar 13 (UTC)

Cilantro is not more commonly used on the net in English than "coriander". It is not an English word, and should not be used in English. Its use is restricted to the speech of those who sloppily mix Spanish and English. I only understood what was meant in the article because I speak Spanish. Americans may only be familar with coriander leaves through Mexican cuisine, but this is no reason to forget the English name for a plant that has been grown in Europe for centuries if not millennia. Cilantro needs to be removed from the entry.

According to [4], "cilantro" does have a slight margin of usage ahead of "coriander", at least according to Google. Do you have any counter-evidence to show that "coriander" is more common?

I'm not sure why you think "cilantro" is not an English word. It is possible, you know, for a word to mean the same thing in two different languages at once. However, what tests are there to determine whether or not a word has been borrowed into a language permanently? I would suggest the following:

• Does the word occur in English texts with any regularity? Yes, it occurs on over 200,000 pages indexed by Google when you do a search on pages in English only [5].
• Is it listed in any major English dictionaries? Yes, it's in the Merriam-Webster, the Oxford English Dictionary, and the American Heritage Dictionary, all of which are dictionaries of English.
• Is the word used by people who don't speak the foreign language? I know many people who don't know a word of Spanish, but yet use the word "cilantro" and only the word "cilantro" to refer to coriander. In fact, many people use "cilantro" exclusively for the fresh leaves and "coriander" for the seeds. In fact, my cooking textbook, On Cooking [6] (a professional text used by culinary schools like the Cornell University school of Hotel Management) says "Cilantro is the green leafy portion of the plant that yields seeds known as coriander." At the grocery store I shop at, Wegman's, the shelf where one can buy cilantro is labeled "cilantro".

By what criterion would you then exclude the word "cilantro" from the English language?

In every supermarket and grocery I go to in Tacoma, Wa USA I can find "cilantro" in the produce section and it is labeled as such. If I tried to find "coriander", I would be there all day and not find anything with that label.

As an English native speaker who does not live in the US, it was not apparent to me that cilantro is coriander. I've added "(coriander)" to the first reference of cilantro so that those of us who know it by this name know what the article is referring to. Surely this is the best solution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.114.214.144 (talk) 17:30, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Husk tomatoes are not the commonest of fruits, and if it is helpful to include the term tomatillo for information, then so be it. It is best, however, to use an English term first.

As I demonstrated before "tomatillo" is 10 times more commonly used than "husk tomato" on pages i English [7], and indeed On Cooking says "Tomatillos, also known as Mexican or husk tomatoes, ...". Again, by what standard would you exclude "tomatillo" from the English language?

Rooster is a dialect term I conceded to leave in for the large numbers of Americans on the internet.

---

There is no gain to Wikipedia to have both "rooster" and "cockerel" listed in the translation, and the inclusion of both goes against standardization of the Wikipedia. Although I a more familiar with rooster, a search of Spanish to English dictionaries online and paperback gives the translation of "gallo" almost always as "cock, rooster". Because rooster is listed second, it seems to be the less preferable translation and the worse candidate for inclusion. Also, Merrian-Webster defines "cockerel" as a young cock. The spanish word "gallo" is not translated as having a connontation of youth, so for this reason "cock" seems to be the best choice for accuracy. However, perhaps you feel that it would be indecent to use the word "cock" when relating to a fowl. Cockerel would be a poor replacement because it denotes a young fowl. That would be akin to translating "vaca", the spanish word for cow, into "calf" the english word for "young cow". I will leave it to you to change in the interests of not starting an edit war, but I do not think that cockerel is an appropriate translation here. Please use "cock", or if you are not so inclined, use "rooster".

Hopefully I can help solve this "dilemma." Cilantro is the English and Spanish term for the plant. It is a spanish word as commonly accepted in English as "taco." In fact, Taco Bell uses this product and uses the term "cilantro" on their product and inventory sheets. Most supermarkets use the term "cilantro" as well. Coriander is a rarely used term, generally applied to the dried spice.

As for "tomatillo" vs. "husk tomato"... I've been growing tomatoes and tomatillos for 10 years and can tell you that "tomatillo" is the most-commonly used term for those little green things. Check out the seed packets at your local nursery if you're curious. They are always labeled "tomatillo." "Husk tomato" is in fact some sort of English colloquialism. I'd never heard the term used before I read this discussion.

Corn sauces?

Corn based sauces? Corn is not even an ingredient used in any of the salsas cited as examples. Xicoav (talk) 07:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Mmm

that salsa looks so good..

Tygar 23:49, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Good? Good?! It was so incredibly good that I pulled out my camera in the restaurant and photographed it for posterity. –Hajor 04:00, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I removed the pronunciation ['sæɫsə] because I couldn't imagine anybody using it. If I'm wrong, please replace it, but please let me know where the word is pronounced this way.

From personal experience, I can attest to this pronunciation in Upstate New York. See Northern cities vowel shift for more information on this topic. In the third paragraph, "The trigger of this shift is the diphthongization of /æ/ into /ɪə/ (æ-tensing), a change identified as early as the 1960s. Then, /ɑ/ is pulled forward toward [a], occupying a position very close to the position of former /æ/, and in some very advanced speakers an identical position." I am not adding this alternate pronunciation to the article, as I do not believe that every single dialect of English needs to be represented in every instance of "English pronunciation," but this is a viable pronunciation of the word for a large number of speakers. Pvodenski 19:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

REQUEST: explanation of why salsa tastes hot

I know theres a feature for requests but i cant seem to find it, so this is the next best thing. i'd like to see an explanation as to why salsa tastes hot, extremely hot in some cases, but can be ice cold in physical temperature. i have seen a short clip on TV explaining this a few years ago, but cannot remember the details, and am curious to why this is... and im sure many more are aswell.

See Capsaicin. Itub 00:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Fecal contamination

Could someone explain WHY fecal contamination is a problem in restaurant salsas as the article claims? The elephant in the living room is why fecal material is in the salsa, not the refrigeration. -71.49.163.77 06:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Produce, like tomatoes and chiles, comes from plants, which grow in dirt. Dirt anywhere in the world contains fecal matter. Moreover, fertilizer often contains fecal matter. This isn't even counting the trace amounts that are literally all over your home this very instant! Thus, always wash your produce. 72.196.104.129 06:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, a little shit never hurt anyone. 92.169.63.44 06:34, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Mythbusters and corrosion

Did anyone catch the Mythbusters episode where salsa was used to corrode an iron prison bar by electrolysis? One of the hosts quipped that salsa would soon be banned from prisons as a result; any clue whether this ever actually occurred in any institutions? I think it would be relevant to this article if it did. In fact, the entire episode and the corrosive properties of salsa may belong somewhere in the article. Let me know if you are interested in helping me source a passage on this topic. Pvodenski 19:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Salsa an ersatz ketchup

This sounds ridiculous. I removed a sentence suggesting that salsa became popular because WWII rationing made ketchup difficult to make. Sounds like a joke to me, as both condiments are made of similar stuff, and if anything salsa contains more ingredients than ketchup. If someone can provide a good citation for that factoid, by all means put it back in, but I highly doubt it. It seems much more likely that salsa spread out from the border regions in the southwest. 24.95.50.34 04:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Bias

Someone clearly has something against commercially available salsa. I'm in agreement, but that doesn't make the bias in that section appropriate for Wikipedia. ---Ransom (--67.91.216.67 (talk) 22:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC))

Is A Citation REALLY Needed Here?

Fresh salsa is usually more expensive and has a shorter shelf life than canned or jarred salsa.

It seems to me that the "Citation Needed" attached to the above sentence is unnecessary. It's commonly understood that canned and jarred foods are both less expensive and keep longer than fresh foods. The latter is especially obvious. Shawn D. (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I’m telling you, man, that fucking template is out of control. Any ignorant dipshit can slap it anywhere, without limitation, and many do. It’s making Wikipedia look like a chicken-scratch of superscripted notations to ourselves. —Wiki Wikardo 05:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Really, are most jarred salsas "cruda"?

"Most jarred, canned, and bottled salsa and picante sauces sold in the United States in grocery stores are forms of salsa cruda / pico de gallo."

In addition to the weirdness of the section about bottled vs fresh(ish) salsas is this seemingly undocumented assertion. I always assumed the opposite was true since most jarred salsas seem pretty well cooked to me. They may be only heated to 175 degrees instead of boiling, but they don't seem at all like the kinds of salsa cruda or pico de gallo at Mexican places. I suppose they're not exactly salsa roja, but they don't seem exactly like "raw sauce" as salsa cruda is defined and most bottled sauces are nowhere near pico de gallo. I'm not so sure they fit either definition exactly and is there any kind of source for these seemingly made up statistics?

This whole section is wonky. 70.231.230.109 (talk) 07:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Redirection issues?

Why does salsa roja, salsa taquera, salsa ranchera, and salsa brava all get redirected back to this page? That serves no use at all. 98.66.137.216 (talk) 02:13, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Any info on Salsa negra?

I know there certainly is such a thing as salsa negra, and it seems just every joint had it in Baja California when I was traveling through there. Just a type of salsa made from dried peppers and oil, not unlike Chinese/Vietnamese dried-pepper sauces. I thought it definitely worth mentioning here, but probably worth its own article too. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Mojo Criollo

I'm surprised to find no mention of mojo criollo here. Unfree (talk) 19:43, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Salsa con queso

I was wondering where "salsa con queso" would fit into this article. Is it not commonly seen in American grocery stores? I for one have seen it across many states in the U.S., so why hasn't it been included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neziwi (talk • contribs) 19:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Exclusively Mexican?

This article makes it seem like salsa is exclusively of Mexican origin or primarily used in Mexican cuisine. With the exclusion of the first sentence, the rest of the article is primarily Mexican-centric. What about Caribbean cuisine, Cuban mojo, creole sauce, Argentine chimichurri, or Peruvian Piri-Piri... Very biased article! --Jutland86 (talk) 12:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I have added several sauces, such as the ones that I listed above, to the article. I have also tagged the article as part of Wikipedia's Latin American Project. If there is no reasonable objection, I would like to remove the Project Mexico tag from the article. As I have said before, if anything, this page ought to be Pan-American and not exclusively Mexican. If so, then a separate article should be created which highlights Mexican sauces exclusively, the new page would then better fit the Project Mexico tag. --Jutland86 (talk) 13:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Picante is chunkier?

Is this a regional thing? In my experience, I've never seen anything but 'Salsa' being chunky (with 'extra chunky' varieties, etc), and 'Picante' indicating a smooth sauce. Western Canada in my case. 216.123.211.13 (talk) 19:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

What about the positive health effects from eating salsa?

It seems a bit odd that only the negative health consequences are addressed, while there are certainly positive health consequences from eating fresh vegetables, including the lycopene and Vitamin C one gets from the tomatoes. Onions and peppers also have positive health aspects from consumption, do they not? Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 23:44, 27 August 2011 (UTC)