Talk:Santa Claus in Northern American culture/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Santa Claus is Real

I read somewhere a US army detecting system found him. ... :I I AM SERIOUS

Really? Earlier you said you were joking. You meant this? AstroHurricane001 21:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any other government links besides the NORAD site? ```` Bellahdoll

I'll bet they found Santa alongside the Iraqi WMDs.

No mention of Mrs Claus??

All this article and no mention of Mrs Claus? I'd like to see Mr Kris Kringle fly around in a sleigh devilering toys to the world w/o the support of his wife. Sure he gets to eat milk and cookies one day a year, who takes care of the man during the rest of the year? I wonder if he has an AK47?

Mrs. Claus is basically a very recent (and very American) figure essentially made up to defuse the cultural problems raised by a single man with Pagan origins who only interacts with children(see micheal jackson). She could be mentioned somewhere, though, as a debatable part of the modern view of Santa.

Mrs. Claus is mentioned in the last paragraph of Overview, with a link to the article about her. Val42 21:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Odin and Santa

I'd like to know where this idea of Odin as the origin of Santa Claus comes from. I know a bit of germanic/nordic folklore and nowhere have I seen this mentioned anywhere. The story of Odin and his horse Sleipnir is well known, but where this idea of it being somehow connected to a yuletide tradition comes from, I'd like to know. If it's indeed somebody's fabrication it shouldn't be here, should it?

I would like to ask the same question is can santa get any fatter , I was unable to find any other reference whatsoever to this kind of Germanic custom, and there is no source mentioned. I think this theory should either be proven or removed since it may confuse people a great deal who research on Santa Claus.

Re: Santa and Coke

The modern image of Santa Claus was crafted quite a lot by Macy's in the late 1800s (Macy's first brought Santa into their stores in 1870). And Santa Claus being the feature of the first Macy's parade in 1924, then called the "Macy's Christmas Day Parade", had a lot to do with Santa Claus becoming national folklore. Or so I've read. Coca-Cola didn't start using the Santa image 'til the 1930s (1931, I believe), while Santa doesn't originate at all with Coca-Cola, they sure helped to drive Santa Claus deeper into U.S. Christmas culture. If this info is to be integrated into the Santa Claus article, you may want to verify everything with Google to check my facts, etc. --Jizzbug

To whom it may concern.

now before you read this , I am not trying to make anyone mad, or mislead you, but people need to remember the truth about certain things and quit hiding it and taking it for granted. I'll give you a little you seek the rest. these notes are from historical documents of the catholic church (vatican archives). evidently someone has not done their job or tried real hard to make sure children and adults know the truth about santa claus and other things that are trying to be forgotten. now so you know so you don't jump the gun , I am an ordained minister of the nazarene church for 11 years and the better part of 25 years studying religins at the seminary in colorado. I will give you a little bit of the facts,you seek the rest and if you are ready to tell the truth about it if your not scared like most are , you will add it to your site . santa claus was a pagan god known as the lord of misrule, to make children behave. children were told if they don't behave they would get a visit from him and a sack of coal. that's where you get, you better watch out you better not cry you better not pout i'm tellin you why. look it up there is no excuse you have a computer use it. now if you are one of those people that are griping about saying happy holidays instead of merry christmas you don't want to read further ok cause you already don't want to hear the truth. these are the facts. actually taken from historical published writings from the catholic church (vatican) archives. in order to make conversion from paganism to christianity the catholic church adapted some of their (pagan)gods and rituals to make it easier to convert to christianity. lord of misrule is one of them, wiccas winter solstice, now according to the bible, christ was born 2 months later. a white rabitt and hunting eggs are part of a pagan ritual for fertillity, and so forth. has nothing to do with the birth of christ or his resurrection. which is what christmas is supposed to be about, RIGHT ?. any questions about what i have said or where i got my info please feel free to email me any time and you can look it up for yourself I've been told that the current popular image of Santa Claus derives from Coca-Cola advertising. I don't know how sure this is. --Pinkunicorn

Well I would have said that Coca-Cola invented the modern Santa - except just looking on Google I found this about [1], it goes into quite a bit of detail and looks to be a reliable source.

Yes, Coca-Cola didn't invent his looks if that what you're talking about. I was interested in figuring out who did though, and there's also the article tomte that explains he was illustrated like how he's represented today in 1881 (and to this day, "tomte" is the swedish word for Santa Claus). An interesting coincidence with the Macy's work in 1870. I wonder if the idea was borrowed from that, or if there's an earlier source for it. --- Someone has changed the original year that Coca-Cola started using the Polar Bears. I believe it was back in the 1980s. It is Not first used 2005!

The Polar Bears were first introduced in 1993 [2]. The article said that 2005 is the first time Coca-Cola used the Polar Bears alone, which is true. Coca-Cola's Santa Claus[3]. is not used in Coca-Cola's advertising at all this year, but will return in 2006 for his 75th anniversary [4].

Im quite sure that the colour of his coat was green until coca cola reinvented it as red, to match with their logo (atleast, this is what i was taught as part of my GCSE). This will need citing though.

Santa Sources

Really good book on the invention of Santa Claus: [5]---Trimalchio

Does anyone else think it might be a good idea to separate and compare the various Santa Claus/St Nick/Father Christmas traditions on this page? I ask because I would expect to see something about Nikolaustag (Dec. 6) if I looked on this page.

On the other hand, I can see limiting this to the specifically US American version and doing see alsos...JHK

Except that the US American version isn't limited to the United States. The US version is the only one I'm familiar with, and I'm an Australian... I wonder if the US version is being imported to any extent into continental Europe or other cultures which had their own Santa-like traditions? -- SJK

I think Santa Claus/Father Christmas vs. Saint Nicholas/Sinterklaas should have separate articles. They are not and never were the same figure (although it seems clear that elements of Saint Nicholas were taken over in Father Christmas).

Also, Sinterklaas is well-known in Belgium and some parts of Germany, unlike what the article says. (Well, the Sinterklaas part seems to contain many many other mistakes, but I cannot verify that at the moment.) --branko

mistakes my vary but this guy

for a god dedicated to 'sailors, children and whores'.

sounds like a heck of a god! what's his name?

Is it really the birthday of Sinterklaas that's celebrated? I thought 5 or 6 December was the day he died. Also note that Sinterklaas is celebrated on 5 December in the Netherlands and on 6 December in Belgium. In Belgium children are told Sinterklaas comes during the night of 5-6 December and the next morning they discover their presents. I've got some work to do tonight! :)) Dhum Dhum 16:23 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

According to Jacobus de Voragine's The Golden Legend December 6th is the feast day of Saint Nicholas, and the day on which he died in AD 343. -- Someone else

Which is probably untrue as well, the date was likely chosen to coincide with the feast of Diana, see Saint Nicholas. --Eloquence

"Shaman Santa"

I'm not really sure whether to put this here or on the Christmas entry but there is a page [6] that contains information about Santa as shaman and a lot of the traditions that we practice today. I don't know whether this belongs here or in the Christmas entry or in it's own, but I'm drafting changes offline so that I can pull all the relevant information together before posting it. There's a wealth of information and I don't want to destroy these entries by making some half assed entries. I want to get all of the various sources together and weed out all the BS first. - - - Elohim

What the hell? Where did this shaman business come from? What "hunter-gatherer" society is this talking about? Where was this society? Where is there a record of their culture, and how do you know the Christmas/Santa Claus tradition derives from it? Graft

I suspect it's from "When Santa Was a Shaman" by Tony van Renterghem, since that's the only place I've ever seen it. Suffice it to say it is speculative at best, and it certainly doesn't represent a well-established point of view. --- Someone else 17:43 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

This does not really belong here:

The origins of Christmas and Santa Claus go back to the early history of mankind, to the time of the hunter gatherers. Each small hunter gatherer community had its own shaman/priest, who functioned as medicine man but probably also took care of the children while their parents went away hunting (men) or gathering (women). One of his other jobs was to calculate the exact date of the winter solstice. That was important because it was tradition for all the communities that lived in a certain area to meet each winter solstice at a holy place in the forest. So it was important not to be too late or too early because the trip, with all members of the community young and old, took days. After all the local communities arrived, all of the men went hunting together, while the rest of the community prepared for a great feast. Because they could hunt with a greater number of hunters the hunt could be targeting larger animals, like deer. After returning with their catch the hunters slaughtered the animals. Then their head shaman choose a large fir-tree and the intestines of the slaughtered animals were hung in the tree in the same way as we today hang garlands in our Christmas tree, together with other chunks of meat and perhaps a caught bird or two. Then the tree was set to fire by the shaman in a ritual (the candles in our Christmas trees still remind us to that), in this way the meat was cooked for the great winter solstice feast.

Today all of this is nearly forgotten, but some of it has survived in the form of rituals. The child caring shaman/priest evolved into Santa Claus and the winter solstice evolved into Christmas. The holy burning fir-tree with its intestines and meat chunks evolved into the symbolic Christmas tree with red (meat) and white (snow) garlands and other Christmas decorations (like birds) and with the fire symbolized by candles burning in the tree. But long before that happened this feast and its practices were already ritualised and their origins mainly forgotten in most Germanic countries and replaced by religious festivals.

When Christianity was first introduced in the Germanic countries it took over several of the ancient religious festivals and 'christianized' them. One of the festivals, was one that was held for a god dedicated to 'sailors, children and whores'. Well the first and last dedication did not do so well in the eyes of the new Christians, and were discarded. Also to make the point clear this 'god' was replaced by a Christian symbol, the bishop.

Later a legend (created or otherwise) was used to strengthen the symbol. The Bishop of Myra (in Turkey) was invented which supposedly had, among other things, brought back to life a few children which where murdered, cut to pieces, salted and put into a barrel. Because of this 'miracle' the bishop became an official saint.

The origins of Saint Nicholas are already discussed in a separate article, and the origins of Christmas should be discussed in that article, not here. Whoever wrote the above part, please move the content you want to keep there, preferably in an NPOV tone with references. --Eloquence

Other Disputed Facts

The reindeer are traditionally pictured with antlers, although true reindeer shed their antlers in the winter. -- Isn't it only true that the males shed their antlers, and the females keep theirs? -- Zoe

I've seen so many photos and videos of reindeer in snowy landscapes with their antlers, my impression is that they keep them. Wetman 18:09, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Male reindeer shed their antlers by January, according to University of Alaska's "Reindeer FAQ".[7] But Santa's reindeer are magical. If Rudolph's nose glows red and all nine reindeer can fly, it's possible that normal reindeer physiology does not apply.--Westendgirl 07:52, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Should the article summarize Christian views of Santa Claus? I gather a lot of evangelical Christians don't like him and actively try to discourage the meme, but I'm not sure how widespread this is? --Robert Merkel 04:11, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Should an entry on Canasta include some Christians' disapproval of card-playing? Wetman 18:16, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

(About Pagan and heathen. The recent edit of User:Kchishol1970 is better NPOV, but the pejorative word Kchishol wants to avoid is actually "heathen." "Pagan" is neutral, as "Neo-pagans" will attest! Wetman 18:09, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC))

In German culture there is a clear seperation between St. Niklas (or Nikolaus) and Santa Claus, wich seems to me is a rather new "tradition" importet from the USA. St. Nikolaus has an own holyday wich is on the 6th Dec. St. Nikolaus is usualy depicted in purple, as far as I know the color of the highest christian holydays, whereas Santa Claus is depicted in the usual Coca Cola red/white. Is this seperation common in other countries? If so, it should be noticed in the article.

Joulupukki?

Why is this listed in the header for the page? As far as I can tell, this term is not used by any group of native English speakers. If we start putting every non-English term for Santa Claus in bold in the first paragraph, the page will go on forever and be filled with junk like Santaa Kurozu (the Japanese pronunciation of Santa Claus). A better idea is to take the little bits and pieces of info about Santa in non-English speaking countries that doesn't relate to the history of Santa in English-speaking countries and make a separate page called "Santa Around the World" or some such thing. This is a good idea anyway because kids frequently have to do pre-Christmas reports on Christmas traditions around the world. I'll pick out whatever bits of info I can from this article and put each bit under a header for a particular country. Ie. "Japan: Santa is non-religious. On Christmas people go on dates.", etc., etc.

Unless anyone objects in the next few days, I'll start working on that soon.--Carl 03:45, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

-- Santa is real. He exists in the hearts and minds of everyone -- 'rella

NPOV?

How can it be NPOV to say that Santa isn't real?

Because that's factually true. We're an encyclopedia. --Ardonik.talk()^* 05:21, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

Ardonik, your stocking will be empty this year. Santa

It would be good to make the article "kid-safe". Perhaps this could be done by using a more NPOV tone for discussion of the existence/nonexistence of Santa, making it possible for kids to read the article without being disillusioned. Nighthawk4211 02:08, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, NPOVing might be a good idea -- we don't want any potentially traumatic events in anyone's life to happen at the hands of the Wikipedia; that's bad PR, but on the other hand, the truth is pretty obvious to anyone who'd be using the Wikipedia, particularly in context of other articles. It's pretty easy to hit North Pole, Reindeer, and Elf and be disillusioned re. Santa Claus; should we pseudo-NPOV all those as well? --Jeff Anonymous 07:19, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Pff, I say we just put in a Spoilers warning. ;p

--Carl 20:18, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

i think the recently added spoiler warning is both wryly amusing, and highly appropriate. i'm curious to see whether it stays, goes, or gets aesthetically formatted (i quite like that it's more visually arresting than the official spoiler template. seems appropriate for both the content and audience.) - 5 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. I find it strange and absurd - it has no place in a serious encyclopedia. Like mentioned below, kids capable of reaching this page already know the truth, and even if they don't they'll certainly not stop at this message. Secondary Oak 06:52, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it is a pity to say Santa is not real. Any adult reading the article will know this already.

Any kid with a reading age high enough and enough computer savvy to be reading an online encyclopaedia unassisted is probably already going to know or at least suspect that he's mythical. You can't meaningfully talk about the origins of the myth and pretend convincingly that he's real.

I know someone who can disprove you. So I added the spoiler back in.--Codenamecuckoo 08:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I was actually a believer until last year in English II class, when my teacher assumed everyone had found out. However, I was in denial of these conflicting evidences until she made that statement. Xparasite9 19:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, something should be done about this.

"Any kid with a reading age high enough and enough computer savvy to be reading an online encyclopaedia" <-- all a child has to do is type is santa claus in a search browser and find the truth on WIKI. Few other sites will do the same. This scenario is not a very unlikely event in this day and age. [8] This is a good example of how other authoritative sources deal with the dilemma. I think referring to Santa as a legend is a more ambiguous approach (I wouldn't want to contribute to the spoiling of a child's youth because of our efforts). Besides, the heading is entitled "the story" - it should introduce Santa's background and nothing more. To go into details about the ethics of parenting is nonsense, and frankly I find the "hurt the child's fragile ego" argument appalling and it has no place on wikipedia's article about "Santa Claus". Save your psuedolectual gibberish for another realm and let children live out their childhoods.

Wow! sitting on Santa's lap is "a practice now banned in Britain.." ? Thats really sad...--68.45.21.204 03:00, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes. We live in a day and age where a five-year-old can operate a computer keyboard before learning how to tie his/her shoes. Maybe, seeing some pictures in Wikipedia, a child would think it is an image search engine, and would want pics of Santa. "W--what do y-you...m-mean, Santa isn't...r--real??!" We don't want any of those. And let's hope to God they don't look at this discussion.--Codenamecuckoo 09:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

We could always add a "Kids click here!", similar to what they do on the Grand Theft Auto websites...--Codenamecuckoo 09:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Usage of the term "legend" would be a great idea, as in nowadays kids' slang a "legend" is a really generous and benevolent person -- not necessarily one whose existence is disputed.--Codenamecuckoo 09:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but isn't the job of any neutral encyclopedia to present factual information, no matter how harsh it may be? Santa Claus (and Father Claus) is a semi-fictional character (semi being that people do dress up as the character every year), and fictional nonetheless. I don't see why wikipedia should pull any punches.

Well, if we changed the Santa Claus article so it was more like the "God" article, we wouldn't have to pull any punches. "To monotheists, God is the deity believed to be the supreme reality. Often characterized as a male figure, he is believed variously to be the sole omnipotent creator, or at least the sustainer, of the universe. [1]" We could say, "To children, Santa Claus is the legend, believed to be the jolly fat man who brings presents..." But you could change the wording to make it sound better. We don't want to scare little kids, but we don't want to scare adults either. Knightskye 02:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, look here. This is an encyclopedia:

"An encyclopedia, encyclopaedia or (traditionally) encyclopædia,[1] is a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge." -Encyclopedia

It is 'comprehensive': Don't fudge the truth to bend over for certain groups of people or motives, even if they are sincere or innocent (I'm sorry if I sound harsh). Just present the facts like a report or a reference.

That is what we should "want to do." If that means presenting the fact that there is no Santa Claus, then so be it. BTW, Britannica 'does' use words with less impact so that it will go over children's heads to an extent. But that doesn't mean we have to.

Birthdate?

What is the source for the 1903 birthdate given? I've never heard of this before. I recommend the birthdate be deleted unless there is some "canonical" backing to suggest this. 24.71.223.141 04:12, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sinterklaas feest

Ive removed the comment in bold below from the body of the article. Ive reproduced the whole paragraph here so it can be seen in context:

When the Dutch still owned the land that later became New York, they brought the Saint Nicholas' eve legend with them to the Americas, but without the red mantle and other symbols. The name Santa Claus is derived from the character's Dutch name, Sinterklaas. Note that in Dutch, the feast is called 'sinterklaas feest' and it celebrates the birthday ((Conflict: The Saint_Nicholas page states that it's his death day, not his birth day.)) of sinterklaas during sinterklaasavond ("sinterklaas's evening") on December 5th or in Belgium on December 6th.

213.202.163.174 21:23, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hilarious image copyright note

The santa has this text:

"This image is a work of an U.S. Air Force airman or employee, taken or made during the course of the person's official duties. As a work of the U.S. federal government, the image is in the public domain."

I found it funny that it's supposedly photographed by a USAF Airman/Employee on duty and property of US government? I wonder if that's really correct and it's really in the public domain since it's so nicely arranged and all, like it was a professional capture for advertisement or whatever. -- Jugalator 11:18, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

I find it doubtful that the image is really public domain...it doesn't exist at the original URL anymore. Seems to me that we should find another public domain Santa image. TheDapperDan 11:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The Greenman

Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that the Greenman has no reference in this article, yet is the primary source of the Santa myth for all European and Asiatic countries that carry the myth of the gift giving wild man?

More Santas

Sinterklaas is a pagan background?

The article says about the transition from Sinterklaas to Santa Claus that ...in an attempt to move the origin of the festivities away from their pagan background to a more Christian one, the date was moved back a few weeks to the celebrated day of the birth of Jesus: Christmas. Pagan background? The guy was a bishop! (well, what's pagan actually depends on what religion you happen to follow - if you're not religious nothing is pagan - or everything? Well, whatever). Ironically, from a christian point of view it's really Christmas that's a pagan festivity It was originally a Germanic tribe celebration of the fact that the days were going to lengthen again, with decorations hung from a holy tree. But that would then have to be on the 21st of December, because that's the shortest day of the year (in the northern hemisphere). Also, given the fact that the western calendar is based on the birthday of Jesus, one would expect it to be on the 1st of January. So I suspect that a compromise was made. The Christmas atricle doesn't say much about this (so needs some work too), except for the reference to the Winter solstice celebrations. By the way, English is a second language to me, but shouldn't it read that the celebrations were moved forward a few weeks? DirkvdM 20:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

No reaction after 4 days, so I'll change it. And then some.... DirkvdM 19:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Sinterklaas has a pagan background, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Santa_Claus as a reference. Of course, Nicholas was a bishop, but the saint was used as a superstition for the pagan god Odin/Wodan and as such, the figure appearing on December 6 is, at least, a blend of the bishop and the pagan god.

All these names...

Santa Claus (also known as Saint Nicholas, Saint Nick, Kris Kringle, Papá Noel (Weihnachtsmann in German, Noel Father in Spanish, Papai Noel Noel Father in Portuguese, De Kerstman in Dutch, Joulupukki in Finnish,Babbo Natale in Italian, or simply Santa) is a character in North American, British, Brazilian and other cultures who gives presents to children on Christmas Day. To whom it may concern. now before you read this , I am not trying to make anyone mad, or mislead you, but people need to remember the truth about certain things and quit hiding it and taking it for granted. I'll give you a little you seek the rest. these notes are from historical documents of the catholic church (vatican archives). evidently someone has not done their job or tried real hard to make sure children and adults know the truth about santa claus and other things that are trying to be forgotten. now so you know so you don't jump the gun , I am an ordained minister of the nazarene church for 11 years and the better part of 25 years studying religins at the seminary in colorado. I will give you a little bit of the facts,you seek the rest and if you are ready to tell the truth about it if your not scared like most are , you will add it to your site . santa claus was a pagan god known as the lord of misrule, to make children behave. children were told if they don't behave they would get a visit from him and a sack of coal. that's where you get, you better watch out you better not cry you better not pout i'm tellin you why. look it up there is no excuse you have a computer use it. now if you are one of those people that are griping about saying happy holidays instead of merry christmas you don't want to read further ok cause you already don't want to hear the truth. these are the facts. actually taken from historical published writings from the catholic church (vatican) archives. in order to make conversion from paganism to christianity the catholic church adapted some of their (pagan)gods and rituals to make it easier to convert to christianity. lord of misrule is one of them, wiccas winter solstice, now according to the bible, christ was born 2 months later. a white rabitt and hunting eggs are part of a pagan ritual for fertillity, and so forth. has nothing to do with the birth of christ or his resurrection. which is what christmas is supposed to be about, RIGHT ?. any questions about what i have said or where i got my info please feel free to email me any time and you can look it up for yourself ... Is it necessary to have the name for every language of every editor that comes across this page? We don't do this for other people (e.g. Archimedes (also known as Arkimedo in Esperanto, Arhimed in Croatian, Archimede in Italian, Arquimedes in Catalan, Archimédés in Chzech, Arkimedes in German, 아르키메데스 in Korean, etc etc. — if those are all too similar, imagine instead God, Dios, Isten, Bóg, Dieu, Gott, Gud, Dio, Bůh, Déu, etc etc). I think we can stick to the English ones, or the list will simply grow out of control. Also, the line "in North American, British, Brazilian and other cultures" seems a little arbitrary — Brazlian more than, say, Italian? Should all the countries that have Santa be included?

— Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 00:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

It is necessary. I would like to see as many names as possible. You can thank me for the Kris Kringle addition.

-Matthew

Velocity

The section on velocity is utterly ridiculous and should be removed. It does not belong in a serious encyclopedia. Gerrit ^CUTEDH 10:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

"British name"?

Since when is Father Christmas the official "British name" for Santa Claus? Most who I know refer to him as the latter; it is not as if English and American are two separate languages.--Codenamecuckoo 08:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

for a very long time, however Father Christmas is the English name for Santa Claus. It is not used by anybody in Scotland so I will update accordingly. But im afraid there is difference between American English and British Isles and Commonwealth English etc.

I live in Northern Ireland, and hardly anyone calls him "Father Christmas". Although I know some who prefer "Daddy Christmas"...

My Family is all in and from N. Ireland as well, and they all do say Father Christmas. I think it is acceptable to say that "Father Christmas" is the term used in the culture pertaining to the British Isles. All of the BBC holiday shows use it, and every British and Irish person I come in contact with use it, and every non-UK person who learned their English in the UK uses the term. I think it is a generally agreable statement. Rowlan 20:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

What you say is true in England and in N. Ireland. But in Scotland, he is called "Santa Claus", by most people. Steggall 11:05 02 December 2005 (UTC)

It certainly isn't true in the Republic of Ireland, where it's Santa or Santy. I've never met any Irish people who've said "Father Christmas" with a straight face. RMoloney (talk) 17:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Nor here really either. I guess it depends where & how you were brought up as well as to which name you prefer. Certinally here in the Midlands, people call him Santa. I think there are some areas in England where "Father Christams" is more common, but it's rarely used here. Santa is by far the preferable name.James2001 22:34, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I can tell you now that through all mylife, Santa Claus has been by far the most commnoly used name here in England, hardly anyone calls him "Father Christmas" any more. Yes, most people recognise that FC & Santa are one and the same, but Santa Claus is by far the most commonly used name, certinally in my experience. James2001 15:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

They are used interchangably. The only difference really is that "Father Christmas" is a more formal name. I'll be using them both this year, no doubt. violet/riga (t) 23:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't forget that Father Christmas is much older and something entirely different. Using the names interchangeably is something relatively recent. As I understand it, Santa Claus is a mix of Father Christmas and Sinterklaas, with the first giving him the date and the second the gift-giving. I don't know where the looks and the sleigh come from. It's ironic that a Santa image is used in the Father Cristmas article, but that's a different matter. DirkvdM 08:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

SantaLand.com

Misleading. The web didn't exist in 1991. Perhaps it was founded as a Gopher site, FTP site, or email address? --68.97.210.191 16:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Kris Kringle

Where did the name Kris Kringle originate from? The name is mentioned a few times in this article, but with no reference to the origin of this name. It's particularly different from Santa Clause or Sinterklaas or any of the others, so merits some explanation. FashionNugget 19:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The article says Christkind ("Christ child") is the German/Austrian version of the name. I guess it was anglicised to Kris Kringle in German immigrant communities in America. Isn't the material side of Christmas a German tradition, along with Christmas trees and manufactured toys? Santa is real.--shtove 21:45, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Ded Moroz image

How is it that a Canadian postage stamp is shown as a representation of Ded Moroz? Дед Мороз is not from Canadia. — Kbh3^rd talk 14:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

To partially answer my own question, the image is identified as "Ded Moroz" on the stamp itself, so okay. Note the staff with the star finial and the full length robe which are part of the traditional Russian image. — Kbh3^rd talk 14:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Sugar

Prior to the Germanic peoples' conversion to Christianity, Germanic folklore contained stories about the god Odin (Wodan), who would each year, at Yule, have a great hunting party accompanied by his fellow gods and the fallen warriors residing in his realm. Children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy [Siefker, chap. 9, esp. 171-173]. This practice survived in Belgium and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas.

Sugar was practically unknown in Europe until the Middle Ages, after Christianisation happened. I don't think sweets/candy would have been in people's diets then; honey was the only source of sweetness available. Could someone explain and/or take another look at the source for this? adamsan 20:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

You're thinking of cane sugar. Other sugars - malt sugar, for example - would've been available. Wisco 07:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Referred names

"Los Reyes Magos" isn't a referred name for Santa in Mexico. "Los Reyes Magos" is about the visit of Melchior, Gaspar and Balthasar to Jesus (which is celebrated in January 6th). I also doubt that it is a referred name for Santa in Argentina, Spain and the other hispanic countries.

"El niño dios" (God child) isn't Santa Claus, although it is used to refer the tradition of Santa delivering presents on christmas.

do not understand this sentence

"Father Christmas is a well-loved figure in and many countries outside the United States, predating the "Santa Claus" character"

Firstly, it makes no sense gramatically.
Secondly, why does the United States have a special claim to Santa Claus?

should it not read "Father Christmas is a well-loved figure in many countries and predates the "Santa Claus" character"? Emoscopes 00:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I was wondering about that as well while copyediting the article. I have changed the sentence as you suggested. Graham/pianoman87 talk 11:12, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Santa doesn't put his gifts in stockings all over the world...

... for example in Scandinavia, Santa normally visit the families (in person) on Christmas Eve and hand over the gifts directly to the children. Probably there are other variations too in other non-english-speaking countries. I didn't really read all of the article, but wasn't able to find a reference to those customs... TERdON 12:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Saint

when was saint nick born please at to wiki (Shabbir Bokhari)

Revert

Ive made a revert of the edit someone made, that is adding Santa Claus under the category of "real people", which was amusing but inappropriate. Fyver528 21:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

And just what are you implying by this??? Wavy G 01:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)