Talk:Santo Daime

external links

Hi Folks,

I understand your desire to rationalize and "clean-up" the external links situation and I believe everyone is acting in good faith. My question only refers to the external links at the Santo Daime entry.

It is important to note that 1) the Santo Daime movement is extremely diverse, offering many variations of ritual, etc and 2) many curious people worldwide use wiki as a portal to further information and as a first step toward a possible visit on earth.

You have reduced the previous links of perhaps 10 to just one - http://santodaime.info/ Igreja Céu do Gamarra are very fine people with a solid and respected history in the movement but no center truly can be considered as representative. They are but one of the many places that might be visited and there are other Santo Daime centers that are part of other lineages (larger and smaller) or located nearer to the origins of the Doctrine in the Amazon Forest. Actually, Santo Daime is now spreading around the world. Wiki is a way to locate them.

Under these circumstance I think it would be better to present all (who request) or none, but not to reduce a diverse movement to one representative.

Best wishes and warm thoughts for a good resolution here.

Lou Gold

Lou.gold (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

re external links

Lou, and others: The limitation to the external links is clearly narrowing the field in what I would consider a biased way here, but limitation of ad-hoc external links on this kind of article is or was, I think, a WP policy, and some well meaning editors who don't know much background on subjects may come along and just trim the external links a bit like hedges.

I would propose to insert a paragraph with the external link[s] to the effect of "if you have a serious interest in getting a more balanced view of Santo Daime web sites, do your own search of 'Santo Daime' or 'Santodaime' on the internet. And don't presume Santodaime web sites are proportionally representative of the Santodaime movement!"

You and I and others would also do well to add in-line citations to specific articles on specific sites that are well enough written. These are less likely to get pruned. See, for instance, my post below 're when if began' . The actual front page of that site (the afamiliajuramidam site that somebody has put back into a refs list that presently stands at TWO) might frighten away some academic researchers, but inside is some useful information. Better to get a search engine to dig it out for you rather than trying to browse the site, I find. Trev M (talk) 21:41, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

founding of santo daime?

This article contradicts itself, saying that Mestre Irineu founded the religion in the 30s (first paragraph) and the 20s (first paragraph under "History"). I haven't yet found a reliable source for its founding, though the Preface to Forest of Visions corroborates the claim that it was started in the 20s.

02:10, 5 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeytwice (talk • contribs)

re founding of Santo Daime

Some retracing of previous searches yields the following. I haven't got time or inclination to edit this into the article page yet. I'll run it past some others when I can, or they can comment further here.

In a biog, Rodrigo Borges Conti Tavares, who visited the area and attempted to ellucidate the history of some of the founding events and members, and who is...

[1] Rodrigo Borges Conti Tavares é formado em Comunicação Visual pela UFRJ, sendo o idealizador e mantenedor do site A Família Juramidam, no qual se dedica aos estudos da doutrina, em especial as raízes.

[1] Rodrigo Tavares Borges Conti graduated in Visual Communication at UFRJ, is the creator and maintainer of the site Juramidam Family, which is dedicated to the study of doctrine, particularly the roots.

says in his biography of Maria Damiao [ one of the founding members of SD ] at

http://www.afamiliajuramidam.org/os_companheiros/maria_damiao_familiajuramidam.html

in an article dated April 13, 2009

in paragraph near top of her page:

Do que anteriormente se sabe, Maria Marques Vieira nasceu em Belém do Pará, no dia 4 de novembro de 1910* e, ainda muito jovem, transferiu-se com sua família para Rio Branco - Acre, onde no ano de 1931 veio a conhecer o Mestre Raimundo Irineu Serra.

What is known previously, Maria Marques Vieira was born in Belém do Pará, on November 4, 1910 , and still very young, moved in with her family to Rio Branco - Acre, where the year of 1931 she came to know Mestre Raimundo Irineu Serra.

He also says in

http://www.afamiliajuramidam.org/mestre_irineu.htm

near bottom of page

A doutrina do Santo Daime é o fruto do seu desenvolvimento material e espiritual, desde o seu encontro com a Ayahuasca, em 1914, nas selvas do Peru, até o dia do seu retorno a sua pátria espiritual, no ano de 1971

The doctrine of Santo Daime is the fruit of his material and spiritual development, since his encounter with ayahuasca in 1914 in the jungles of Peru, until the day of his return to his spiritual homeland, in 1971

So you could say the ayahuasca met Irineu in 1914, and Irineu began holding ceremonies involving known-others in around 1931.

This ties in with other accounts I have heard that I cannot document here so quickly. Luis Mendez has a web site with some first hand historical accounts that you might like to do digging for.

Trev M (talk) 21:06, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Mestre's Quotation and proselytising

I've put html quotes around a new quotation box that's appeared, hoping it'll be modified, for 2 reasons:

1) It's attributed to Mestre Irineu, and I'm not disputing he said that, but please add a reference to WHERE you saw this quotation given, so someone can find it themself. It's not adequate in an encyclopaedia to say only "I've heard it said". See WP:RS#Quotations

2) It comes over as proselytising, even though it's given as a quote. You and I may both respect the man very much, but that does not mean his beliefs should be shouted here. So, inside my quotes, I've also taken the bold-face off his words.

Beware of adding material in the jargon of Santo Daime. "Mestre... " can sound proselytising in itself. I have referred to him as Irineu or by his full name in my input.

Finally, beware of assuming too much about Santo Daime. It is a VERY diverse umbrella, the only commonality really, being the drinking of Ayahuasca and the following of Irineu's basic teachings. Beyond that, you have to start referring to which group or church's rituals you are describing, and maybe that needs subcategorising according to church! Trev M (talk) 01:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Link Repository

Repositing this here from section 1, as could not verify it as a true citation of statement "also known as simply the doctrine of mestre Irineu" but it is a poterntially valuable historical resource that needs more study <ref> Scanned image of the text of article entitled "The Santo Daime doctrine – an interview with Alex Polari de Alverga" by Gary Dale Richman, from "Shaman's Drum" magazine, issue 22, Winter 1990-91. [http://libertedusantodaime.free.fr/shamansdrumtext/]</ref>. (Expansion by me). Replaced with citation to Cefluris site, but would prefer better. Trev M (talk) 11:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

other academic resources from which citations for potentially controversial unsupported statements in the article may be found:

Paper by Adjunct Lecturer, Florida International University, Department of Sociology/Anthropology, on using "...Santo Daime as a case to explore the critical role human-plant relationships may have played in the formation of religious awareness." http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/daime.htm

The legal statement of facts from a 2009 test case in the US, vindicating SD: http://www.neurophys.wisc.edu/~cozzi/CHLQ findings of facts 031809.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trev M (talk • contribs) 16:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

picture description

It says 'eagle' and crescent, but afaik it is both a kind of phoenix and their symbol is a hummingbird, whereas sun moon and stars play an important role in the liturgy. 84.82.139.176 (talk) 18:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)