Talk:Sash window

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Hi
I added an information page at http://www.0am.info/ on the article. It contains some more info.Moonrat506 — Preceding undated comment added 20:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, merging sounds like a good idea — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leew (talk • contribs) 16:44, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Advantages?

Sash windows are relatively high maintenance, but offer advantages in return

Can anyone tell us poor ignorant non-anglosaxons where the advantages are? I see only disadvantages: More complex, more expensive, more likely to break, more difficult to repair, and most important of all: difficult to clean! I would be glad if someone could clarify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidec~enwiki (talk • contribs) 23:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Advantages of sash windows...

Some box sash windows date back to the late 16 century and are still functioning machines, doing the job they were built for i.e. keeping the weather out and letting light in. There are not many of these old examples but still the average age of the majority of box sash windows is over 100 years. 20 years is a common replacement age for upvc or aluminium windows. These scrap windows are costly not only in financial terms but also environmentally. Modern sash windows using the original design are not a cheap investment but a long term one. They include advances such as long life paints, durable cords, double glazing & weather seals and these improvements eliminate the usual problems associated with sash windows. Many of these improvements can be retro fitted into existing sash windows as part of a full service to the window.

Repairs are moderately simple for somebody with good woodworking skills -depending on the extent of the neglect. Repairs to metal or plastic frames are not however.

A fully functioning sash window allows for all over cleaning from the inside, especially important for situation above 2 storeys. Casement windows usually do not offer this ability. The outside glass is cleaned by reaching over and under to clean half at a time. They should only be difficult if the window is not working properly - usually when the top frame has been painted shut.

The design of a sash window will also allow for external paintwork to be undertaken without a scaffold or ladder. The window is simply dismantled (30 min work) painted and reassembled (another 30 min).

A fully functioning sash window is capable of creating an effective air current to cool rooms in hot climates. Simply opening the top & bottom sashes the same amount causes cool air to enter from the bottom whilst hot air leaves from the top.

I have been involved in this timber window business for many years and think that traditional box sash windows are a time proven great design, that play a significant part in the charm of many of our most famous real estate. My web site has plenty of info on traditional windows including; how to repair a window (diy), the history of sash windows as well as offering details of our own improvement services - www.sashwindowspecialist.com

Simon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Si free (talk • contribs) 16:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

late 16th century? don't you mean 17th century (1600s?)--PeterR 09:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

If sash windows are already in place then one clear advantage is that bringing them up to modern standards of thermal efficiency is relatively cost effective. A simple draught proofing system is a fraction of replacement costs and will provide comfort without damaging the aesthetics of the window. It is also worth remembering the carbon saved from refurbishing and draught proofing sash windows as opposed to upvc or metal (crittal windows)is significant.

Helen

http://www.box-sash-windows.co.uk — Preceding unsigned comment added by SashWindowsSpecialist (talk • contribs) 14:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

One significant advantage of sash windows which, to me, outweighs almost all disadvantages is that they allow fitting of window screens, as well as "storm windows" (a second glass window fitted to the exterior in the winter for added insulation). Being able to open windows without allowing the distribution of flying insects inside your house to come to equilibrium with the outdoors is astonishingly pleasant.

Myles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.48.81.159 (talk) 15:17, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Another advantage vis-à-vis the typical Continental casement window, that for safety and self-protection opens inward, is that is that it leaves space right up to the window free for use; this may be especially advantageous for small rooms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.65.196.210 (talk) 14:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

When did sash windows cease to be fitted in new houses?

It would be useful to mention when sash windows ceased to be fitted in new houses in UK, USA, and other countries, and what replaced them. My guess is that in UK sash windows lasted from late 17th century (apparently invented in the 1660s according to Peter Elmer in Chant & Goodman (eds): Pre-industrial Cities and Technology, London, Routledge/Open University, 1999, page 232) until the 1920s. Probably some 1930s semi-detached houses still have them too. Why the change in fashion? Incidentally Simon's comments about their durability are surely based on the type of wood used. Even modern softwood windows could survive quite a long time with good quality wood and good maintenance. In my ex-council house built circa 1965 we have just last year replaced the original softwood casement windows. Had we looked after them better they might have lasted 50 or even 60 years. One factor in replacing them at this point was the fact that we were the only house in our square with this type of window remaining. --PeterR 10:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou for pointing out my mistake Peter I did indeed mean to say the 17th century (it must have been a long day!). Although possibly the earliest recorded account may be that of W.Horman who in his 1589 'Vulgaria' wrote-

"Glasen wyndowis let in the lyght.....I have many prety wyndowes shette with levys goynge up and down".

Sash windows have never completely ceased to be used in new houses as they are still specified in some new build properties today. However the move to casement windows as the norm occurred around the 1910 - 1930's - It would be impossible to put a more accurate time scale due to regional & national trends. The primary move away from sash windows was economic - casements are much cheaper to manufacture.

Most 'modern' sash windows are not the typical box sash windows of yesteryear with cords and weights but instead utilise alternative methods of supporting the sash frames. None of these systems function quite as well as original weight system but they are much cheaper to manufacture.

Of these alternative methods the most common is the spiral balance which is still widely used today, not only in timber windows but also in metal & plastic windows. A spiral balance system comprises 2 plastic or metal tubes per sash frame that run vertically to the top of the window. Inside the tube is a twisted (spiral) metal rod that is turned to tension the balance. A variation on this theme uses a spring instead of a spiral. Another less common alternative is the ACME tape balance - similar in principal to a tape measure with the body of the balance set into the window frame, whilst the tape is attached to the bottom of the sash frame. There have been other systems introduced over the years but they have been discontinued.

The majority of older sash windows were made of top quality softwood- commonly Douglas-Fir (aka Oregon Pine) a resinous, durable timber. Today’s softwood windows use much cheaper, faster growing varieties of pine such as Redwood because Douglas-Fir is now more expensive than many hardwoods. The use of this timber in part explains the longevity of sash windows over modern casements. Another major factor that increased the life span of sash windows over casements is in the design. Casements are typically set almost flush with the outside walls exposing them to maximum weathering whilst box sash windows are usually set back allowing them some protection. The mortise and tennon joints in a sash are shielded inside the running tracks from the elements whilst in casements they are not. Another consideration would be the use of more durable lead based paints - now discontinued from general use due to health implications.

Modern softwood windows will last as long as the old heritage windows (hundreds of years) provided that the paintwork and putties are regularly maintained in top condition.

Simon

http://www.sashwindowspecialist.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.182.180.207 (talk) 02:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

i heard sash windows were invented in Holland and then quickly came to the UK. Today it is regarded as a genuinely British detail of architecture although it is not a British invention and it is almost as widely used in the United States. You can see sash windows in the old city centre of Amsterdam but they have not been used for new buildings for decades there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.85.73.210 (talk) 14:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

In South Africa, sash windows can be found in some houses built until roughly the 1930s. From the 1940s on they virtually disappeared in favour of casement windows. I would say probably because casement windows were less complicated to make industrially and most houses were single storey so cleaning was not an issue. Also, from the 1940s squarer and more landscape format windows became usual rather than tall narrow ones, for which sash windows were less suitable.

I would also like to see a reference for the 'advantage' of being able to open the window a bit at the top and bottom as it seems implausible. With a typical casement window, when opened the opening extends from the bottom to the top and surely the effect is similar? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.254.132 (talk) 11:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Cleaning the Bottom Sash

Can we go back the "cleaning" comment - How would one clean the top half of the bottom sash from the inside? When the bottom sash is lifted to get one's arm out and clean, the top half would be covered by the bottom of the outside sash. Similarly, when the top sash is lowered to clean it, the bottom sash is covered. Seems to me this sentence should be removed.... Maxtypical 02:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Having lived in several houses that have had this type of window, I can say they are very easy to clean. The bottom window generally has hinges that allow you to lock it in place and swing it inside, thus the bottow window is cleaned. The top window can then be claened by lowering it a bit to get the bottom half and then lowering it completely and leaning out over the top to get the rest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.200.236.111 (talk) 13:38, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Some pics: [1], [2]. BTW if anybody knew about some such pics in the public domain it would be good to incorporate them into the article, otherwise this question will probably keep haunting people in countries where sash windows aren't used. --Thrissel (talk) 21:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I've found a great article with a link to a YouTube video on how to clean a uPVC sash window How to Clean Sash Windows: A Step-by-Step Guide – Colin's Sash Windows (colinssashwindows.co.uk) 217.145.82.96 (talk) 06:49, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Disadvantages?

As buildings are bound to get more energy-efficient sash windows are a disaster in achieving that since there is always a bit of draft coming through the gaps. Why is it still so popular? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.85.73.210 (talk) 14:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of seals? You know, those rubber strips which can be applied to keep any gap shut. They use it now everywhere, so I was told... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.13.42.65 (talk) 23:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

In the 1970s in the UK my Father was engaged in small carpentry repairs to tenanted property in South London, England. His main task was replacing the sash cord (that connected the sash to the counterweight, running over a pulley) that had worn and broken. Because of the boxing-in, this was a disproportionately complex job. Surprised not to see this referred to under disadvantages ... if I could cite a source I would add it myself; maybe someone else can?

So far as rubber strip seals are concerned, if you used them you couldn't open the sash, so that would be rather futile.Afterbrunel (talk) 11:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

WOOD MUNTINS

HOW ARE WOOD MUNTINS CONSTRUCTED —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.124.224.98 (talk) 16:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Nice Ignite talk about sash windows in Dublin

[Graham Hickey at Ignite Dublin 2 (youtube)] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.33.150 (talk) 17:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Sash window in Vermeer's Milkmaid?

The window in Vermeer's painting seems to be a casement window fitted with leaded panes. Can anyone spot anything in it which is particularly characteristic of a sliding sash? This may explain the apparent inconsistencies of date with the painting and what is known about the emergence of sash windows in the late 1660s early 1670s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.40.94 (talk) 14:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Early wooden sash windows were fixed or hinged like casements. This sash window in Vermeer's Milkmaid doesn't look like a typical leaded casement which usually were small and had diamond shaped panes. This is not a double-hung sash window either. There is no sign of any hardware. So, all you can assume is that this was a fixed sash or a casement sash window. But, it certainly is a sash window. Tomticker5 (talk) 15:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Glaze

What does Glaze mean in this context? Mention is made regarding a "glazed window" on top. Is the bottom window not glazed? What is it to be glazed? 99.133.156.232 (talk) 04:45, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

It means there's glass there. Do you mean "double-glazed window", maybe without the hyphen? See Insulated glazing. --Thnidu (talk) 05:20, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Plural(s) of "sash"

An HTML comment at the very beginning of the wikitext said

Note that, due to the word's etymology, the plural form of "sash", in this context, is also "sash". "Sashes" is the plural form only when referring to the scarf-like cross-body garment also called a sash.

If correct, this statement should be available to the reader as well as to the editor. But while both "sash" and "sashes" are used for the plural, Google count shows the regular plural favored over the irregular one by about 60/40:

• Google search: window "sashes are"

  About 84,600 results

• Google search: window "sash are"

  About 49,200 results

Most or all of the first 100 results on each search are commercial or informational pages specifically about sash windows.

And in fact dictionaries, as well as many professional sites, favor the regular plural over the irregular one, if they mention the latter at all (boldface added):

1. Merriam-Webster:

   plural sash also sash·es

2. Oxford Dictionaries

   sash window:

   A window with one or two sashes which can be slid vertically to make an opening.

3. American Heritage Dictionary

   sash² (săsh)

   n.

   A frame in which the panes of a window or door are set.

   ...

   [Alteration of French châssis, frame (taken as pl.); see CHASSIS.]

   [That is, "sashes" was borrowed from French as the plural. --Thnidu (talk) 17:18, 7 November 2015 (UTC)]

1. wiseGEEK

   What is a Window Sash?

   Window sashes in older homes are typically constructed of wood and glass.

2. About.com:

   By Lee Wallender, Home Renovations Expert

   Window sashes are typically found in the double-hung window style, in which one sash is positioned above a lower sash. The lower window sash has the capacity to slide up and down until it is nearly parallel with the upper sash.

   It is not uncommon in older windows for the upper sash to be fixed in place (while the lower sash remains operable). Newer double-hung windows, though, tend to have upper sashes that move up and down.

3. The Sash Window Workshop

   The Sash Window Workshop is the premier manufacturer and installer of traditional timber windows and doors in London and the south of England.

   Our new and replacement wood sash window products include:

   ...

   • vertical and horizontal sliding sashes
   • fixed sashes

Moving the HTML comment to an explanatory footnote (already done), and changing it to note "sash" as an alternative plural used mostly by professionals.

--Thnidu (talk) 17:18, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but I think it can go still further.

The plural is sashes. If "sash" is an American plural, then it needs to demonstrate sourcing for that. As someone who has (at times) been describable as a professional carpenter (UK), I've never heard of sash as a plural. The most authoritative source I have is James Ayres' Domestic Interiors and that only gives "sashes". I'd even note that etymological dictionaries are a regular source of trouble on WP, especially when only the web copy, without the annotations, is used. They might list one form for a plural, but only as a single source from centuries ago. Even if the OED does this (and I might check my own full OED if I have time), that's no indication that it's still "a plural" in the sense of something to recommend for ongoing use. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

@Andy Dingley: Thanks for the input.

Checking OED: So might I (had I time before week after next. Sources for actual use: see the second Google search, there are plenty. --Thnidu (talk) 01:02, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

uPVC / vinyl sash windows

@Adriand2: The refs you've added to the first and last sentences of the last paragraph are quite good, but there are still several significant statements within the paragraph that lack attribution. These include "more than 50% of all window sashes being made of vinyl in the USA as of 2017", "the plasticizer chemicals used to make vinyl sashes flexible evaporate leaving the material brittle and prone to breaking", and the sentences mentioning "weaker than wood and aluminum", "requires extra support", and "outside cladding". I'm sure that these are accurate and that you got them from reliable sources, but we need refs to those sources. --Thnidu (talk) 02:27, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

rm r

Disputed section

The paragraph that starts with "uPVC or vinyl sash windows..." in the Issues section initially equates uPVC and vinyl, and then switches to using vinyl as the description. Throughout the paragraph it confuses vinyl, PVC and uPVC. In particular, it refers to "plastic" and "plasticizer" in reference to vinyl windows. This is inaccurate. Vinyl windows are the same as uPVC. uPVC is unplasticized PVC, therefore referring to it as plastic or the use of plasticizers is misleading.

Given that a large part of this paragraph highlights weaknesses of plastics and plasticizers while describing uPVC/vinyl windows that are unplasticized, the result is that the paragraph is largely inaccurate.

Voodoomike (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

In the context of window frames, PVC, vinyl, plastic, uPVC and PVC-U are all synonyms. The plastic in plastic windows is unplasticised, i.e. rigid rather than flexible. Terminology could probably be tidied up, but there's no contradiction here. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Propose merging the newly created Paned window (architecture) here, as same topic. --Bejnar (talk) 16:10, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose: This makes no sense. The terms are not synonymous: sash windows and paned windows are not the same thing. See, for example, this image, and this image, both of which show paned windows which are not sash windows. Many, many other examples exist, and can be found without any effort. -- The Anome (talk) 16:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose Ridiculous suggestion. A sash window is a rectangular or oblong window which opens by sliding up or down by means of a rope, weight and pulley secreted in its frame. A paned window is any shape of window which is subdivided with panes glass. It can open in any direction or not at all. This sort of suggestion should not even be made as it’s time wasting. Giano (talk) 16:29, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose because not all paned windows are sash windows. But honestly, this hostility toward Bejnar is both puzzling and unwarranted. Can't we just say we disagree with the suggestion and move on? I'm going to AGF that their lack of due diligence on this merger was merely a rare oversight, something that happens to even the best of us. Altamel (talk) 18:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

It is not “hostility,” more a case of “ask a silly question, get a silly answer.” Giano (talk) 19:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose per The Anome. @Bejnar: I would recommend waiting rather than nominating new articles for deletion or merger while they are being developed. This article was moved to its current name at 15:56 today, you started a merger discussion within fifteen minutes and the article is now three times as long as its first version. TSventon (talk) 20:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I’m closing this merge suggestion and will remove templates. The two are indisputably different and cannot be merged. Giano (talk) 21:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.