Talk:Scallion/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Rename?

Green onion, spring onion, and bunching onion, in the U.S., refer to immature onions. Occaisonally, although incorrectly, scallion is used to refer the same thing especially when referring to the sliced greens of said young onion. Not the other way around, as the article states. Any input from outside the U.S.? VermillionBird 21:49, 2005 Mar 15 (UTC)

I'm British, and I'd always call the things in this article's photo "spring onions". I don't think I've ever used the word "scallion" except when talking to Americans. 81.158.205.223 12:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Further to the above... a Google search for "spring onions" site:uk produces 23,200 hits; however, a search for "scallions" site:uk gives only 672 hits. Loganberry 12:05, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

From the american perspective, I would say "green onion" is the most commonly used term, more so than scallion. But as for "incorrectly", the OED gives the first definition of scallion as "A spring onion, any of several varieties of onion or related plants which are used like the spring onion, as the Welsh onion, Allium fistulosum, and the shallot, Allium cepa var. aggregatum. Also any long-necked onion with an undeveloped bulb. Now chiefly dial. & N. Amer.", which sounds very like the article. Perhaps the article would be better as either "green onion" or "spring onion" by the "most common name" rule, but I don't see how this usage of the word scallion is incorrect. -- WormRunner | Talk 03:07, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm an American, and I've always called a "Scallion" a "Scallion" Geverend 13:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Californian, and I've always called them Spring Onions (and never Scallions). I agree with Saluton, it sounds like a kind of fish. njaard 00:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

In Britain, nobody ever calls them "scallion", always "spring onions". I've never heard the word before...it sounds like a kind of fish. I suggest "spring onion" would be a better name for the article as nobody in the commonwealth will understand what scallion is. But even those Americans who use "scallion" would probably understand "spring onion", or at least have a vague idea of what it is. Saluton 02:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The terms "green onion", "scallion" and "spring onion" are all used in the U.S. I'm a cook (but by no means an authority on onion naming), and I've always called them "green onions", but another cook I work with says "spring onion", and my boss says "scallion". Green onion seems the most common name where I live (Michigan, USA), but it may be a regional preference. They are sold under any of the three names (in the U.S.), and are in dictionaries as synonyms, though I've heard/read that "scallion" also refers to a specific variety of onion named "scallion". I think that it would be better to have the page called "Green onions" or "spring onions", and say that they are often called scallions in the U.S. The page may be a little too U.S.-centered if the term "scallion" isn't common in other countries (But is it?). Just some input, I'm not too partial, really. --ScarletSpiderDave 01:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Begging you pardon, but I have spent all of my childhood in Northern Ireland and have never, ever, heard anyone refer to scallions as spring onions. I will remove this gross affront to those who reside in the North. Viva la scallion! Tx

Green Onion is an inaccurate term that has been popularized by restaurants such as Taco Bell and as of late, the media due to the E-Coli outbreak from said resturant. Being a farmer, they were/are referred to as scallions in the US. As I grew up, using the scallion and onion greens were normally both referred to as onion greens. I believe green onions was derived from that phrase. The only problem I would see with using the term scallion is that some may confuse the greens of onions with scallions as they are in fact very similar and only differ slightly in taste and texture. I think the inaccurate, but more commonly used, term of green onions is unfortunatly here to stay.Eldorin 04:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The term scallion is popular in Northern Ireland, where it is used almost exclusively in preference to spring onion. "Spring onion" is only usually mentioned in reference to crisps (potato chips). Scallions are part of the recipe for a dish popular in Northern Ireland called champ. --Mal 01:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard the word "scallion" be spoken for this item, though I'm sure it's correct. Where I'm from (Wisconsin, USA), these have always been called "green onions". It's not incorrect to use "green onion" since that is, in fact, the term for this particular vegetable in these parts. Falsified 22:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Australian usage is a nightmare and depends on whether you are a gardener or a chef. Buying seed you would ask for Spring Onion Australia wide. Buying the grown plant requires a different name in various states. In Victoria they are Spring Onions, In New South Wales they are Shallots and in Western Australia they are scallions. French shallots (the small clumping brown or purple onion) are known as Eschallots in NSW. Recipe books tend to follow the English spring Onion or Scallion depending on the publisher's distribution plans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.215.155.44 (talk) 07:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to the entry, I have only encountered eschallot to mean the French shallot. I have heard it in NSW and South Australia.--Bebofpenge 07:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Like my friends from Northern Ireland (above), I can confirm that the term scallion is used almost exclusively in the Republic of Ireland as well. 86.43.214.221 (talk) 08:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• Google gives: 'scallion' - 1,170,000 hits. 'Green Onion' - 1,280,000 hits. Bearing in mind that 'scallion' is also a surname (it's safe to assume that 'green onion' isn't), I think we should definitely rename seeing that 'green onion' is far more popular and widely understood. Even as a Brit who'd only ever use 'spring onion', I understand 'green onion' far more readily than 'scallion' - which was a mystery to me until I came here. Can we rename it? Any objections? Malick78 (talk) 17:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I say rename. I have lived in South Africa, The middle east, England and now live in Dublin. Never heard of a "scallion"Plaasjapie (talk) 00:12, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I hope I'm not adding anything to this discussion that hasn't been said before in some ways, but I found this informative link (http://archives.record-eagle.com/2007/may/21onions.htm) that I thought might be interesting in defining the difference between a 'spring onion' or a 'scallion'. The guy who's quoted (of course one has to bear in mind that this is an American farmer, and not British, Irish, Australian, from Belize, or whatever) makes a difference between the ones with a bulb -- spring onions or green onions, and scallions, the ones that never develop a real bulb.--Majesteit (talk) 20:40, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Considering the points raised above, under the renaming section of this article, should we not reconsider whether the comment "Sometimes confused with green onion, or spring onion, which is the immature onion harvested in the spring before it develops into a mature onion." sould be reconsidered. I, being british, would consider scallion and spring onion to be the same thing, but did have to look up both green onion and scallion when reading a recipe recently as i would have always refered to the intended ingredient as "spring onion". If it is indeed a regional or continental variation in naming then maybe that would be more appropratly adressed than indicating it as purely a "confusion" with a universally accepted definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.61.6 (talk) 01:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree - the article itself indicates that the majority of the world knows these as Spring Onions, or a local translation thereof, and only North America, presumably from an Irish root, calls them Scallions. The OED also backs up this. As it stands, the notion of "confusion" is therefore very US-centric. There are clearly multiple local names for this vegetable, and the idea that the US one is somehow more correct than a more widely used name elsewhere is equally obviously misguided. The article needs to move on from the notion. I will make some alterations that keep both sides of this usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.147 (talk) 10:29, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Indeed; the above discussion mostly seems to be one about various names for the same thing. Whereas the article you found (plus several less authoritative ones I found: 1, 2, 3) appear to consistently imply that there are 2 distinct things, with different sized bulbs (and that in the USA at least, the larger bulb variety is called the spring onion and the smaller bulb one is the scallion). So perhaps the first question to answer before even talking about names is whether we should be treating these as 2 different things (or maybe 2 distinct varieties of the same thing) or not. (N.B. For the record, the article at record-eagle.com does, as claimed, appear to be from the Washington Post; I found a preview of it in the archive, dated 2007-05-02.) Open4D (talk) 15:41, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

So having said all that why is the article still entitled "Scallion"?. I propose to change it to "Spring Onion" if I hear nothing else...Drshok (talk) 09:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Drshok

Google hits are a tricky measure, because you don't know exactly what they are referring to. However, they give a rough indication. Using the advanced search so that pages with multiple uses can be excluded, I got:

• "green onion" -scallion -"spring onion" = 7.6 million
• scallion -"green onion" -"spring onion" = 4.3 million BUT this includes the use of "Scallion" as a surname, so is undoubtedly too high
• "spring onion" -scallion -"green onion" = 3.0 million

The Google ngram viewer allows capitalized uses to be separated from non-capitalized ones. This suggests that in books, uncapitalized "green onion" and "scallion" are about equally common, with "spring onion" next. In the most recent sources, the order is the same as the web search, i.e. "green onion" > "scallion" > "spring onion".

So in terms of the recognizability/common name part of WP:AT, the article could possibly be moved to "green onion"; definitely not "spring onion". However, there is also the precision part of WP:AT. Here the problem is that none of the terms is particularly precise, as the discussion above shows: different terms are used in different ways in different parts of the world. "Green onion" seems to be much more of a US term, so may be somewhat more precise there, but not in the rest of the world.

I conclude that the article may as well be left where it is; "scallion" is as good a name as the other alternatives (and is more concise, a minor criterion at WP:AT). There seems no case to move it to "spring onion" (although this is the only term I knew before looking at the article). Peter coxhead (talk) 11:20, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

And just to confuse things further. Here is a quotation from a publication of the American Department of Agriculture which certainly contradicts the "expert" above. (I found it in the OED references for "scallion" by the way. The OED has a great many other American uses not found in the article. I can't believe no one has already commented on this. Perhaps the OED doesn't feature in some people's lives. Oh well.): "Green onions, shallots, and leeks are sometimes called ‘scallions’ " (1969) Yearbk. Agric. 189/2 (U.S. Dept. Agric.) As long as there is a redirect from "green onion" (which is the case), no renaming is necessary but I wouldn't vote against it. Mike Hayes (talk) 07:19, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Compare vs. Onion

The lead sentence of this article states:

A...green onion...is associated with various members of the genus Allium that lack a fully-developed bulb.

This appears to contradict the introduction to the article on Onions (under "Propagation"):

Either planting method may be used to produce spring onions...which are the leaves and/or immature plants.

Can we arrive at a consensus that scallions/green onions are either

• Onions harvested before the bulb develops, or
• Allium varieties that don't develop a bulb

Or, failing a consensus, can we at least bring the two articles into agreement with each other, that the term appears to apply to both categories? Bgoldnyxnet (talk) 11:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what your confusion is. The term refers to both, as the article states. Mike Hayes (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

The first sentence

I don't really believe a link to a character in a manga series is needed here. It seems irrelevant.

Agreed, I'll take care of it. Carl.bunderson 09:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, especially as the series is not in English and has nothing to do with a green onion anymore than Pinocchio is about a pine kernel. Mike Hayes (talk) 07:32, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Jamaice—Escallion

There is a variant in Jamaica called Escallion that is generally familiar to Jamaicans and that I last used to flavour the breakfast I prepared this morning. I don't know the symbolism for pronunciation, but I and everyone else I've heard refer to it pronounce it skellion (rhyming a bit with "skeleton").

The Wikipedia article on escallion emphasizes that it is different from leeks, spring onions, and shallots, but does not state a species or a variation. I am sure that someone from the Faculty of Natural Sciences or the Faculty of Agriculture at the University of the West Indies would know the classification of escallion.

Since escallion is obviously one of the forms of scallion, I suggest that the article on escallion be merged into this one.

I apologise for announcing the suggestion on the page before making it.

Respectfully, SamBlob 03:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

A Google search has revealed a document that states the botanical classification for escallion. Page 12 of this document: http://www.frp.uk.com/dissemination_documents/R6290_-_FTR.pdf refers to escallion as Allium ascalonicum L.. While I do not know what the "L." means, I will try to contact the authors of the paper. Respectfully, SamBlob 04:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I did a bit of poking around on Wikispecies and it looks like 'L.' refers to Carolus Linnaeus, a botanist. When citing a botanical name that Linnaeus was first to use, it is customary to put 'L.' afterwards. See Author_citation_(botany). I'm in favour of merging escallion with this article, and will do so if I get a chance over the next few days. Feel free to do so yourself too! Boabbriggs 00:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The link http://www.frp.uk.com/dissemination_documents/R6290_-_FTR.pdf is dead – the whole site appears to have been repossessed –, but according to the USDA's Germplasm Resources Information Network database, Allium ascalonicum L. is a synonym of Allium cepa L. var. aggregatum G. Don, which is the scientific name of the shallot, while according to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries of Jamaica, the escallion is Allium fistulosum, the Welsh onion. Therefore I have moved the Escallion section to the latter article.  --Lambiam 21:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Escallion may be a scallion, but a Jamaican source says its scientific name is Allium fistulosum L., not Allium ascalonicum L.--Nodove (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Italy

I changed the italian translation from "scalogno" to "cipollotti freschi". Scalogno actually means "shallot". I'm sorry for my english and for being a wikipedia newbie, but I'm italian and I'am sure about the translation. Hope to have been useful.

I found a great many more Italian terms for a green onion and have included them with their references (all in Italian with photographs). Mike Hayes (talk) 07:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

United Kingdom—Scottland, Syboes/Cibies

I've made a couple of changes to this article as per what appears to be the broad consensus on this talk page. The term 'Spring Onions' is in common usage in all parts of Great Britain (The island comprising England, Scotland and Wales). When I say Great Britain, I do no mean the United Kingdom. I've lived in Scotland my whole life - partly in the highlands, and partly in the lowlands, but i've never heard anyone refer to these vegetables as 'cibies'. Equally, it seems that the term 'gibbons' is not exactly universal in Wales. I've edited the article to reflect this.

I would suggest that if the words 'cibies' and 'gibbons' aren't in common usage in any regional dialect in Scotland or Wales, then the references to them should be removed altogether. Your thoughts? --Boabbriggs 17:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Simmilar in scotland...never heard this term before...always called them spring onions...

same here. same with syboes, never heard of that word either. i'm also betting if you went into a supermarket and asked for either, you'd get the strangest of looks. maybe even a similar reaction from your local greengrocer... chambers dictionary online hasn't heard of either word, and they're usually good with obscure words. an internet search didn't bring up much either, apart from one reference to syboes, but it said the term is used in english. can anyone confirm the scottish link?? (geeness, not logged in atm) 77.101.18.129 (talk) 21:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

My mum's family is Scottish, and thus we have always called spring onions 'cibies'. Also, I have no idea how you actually spell 'cibies' only that it is pronounced si-bees ('si' as in 'sigh'). --Beeurd (talk) 04:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I can also confirm that growing up in Scotland, we always called them 'cibies' and I only became aware of the term 'spring onion' from supermarkets where everything is labelled to suit the English 82.12.115.25 (talk) 00:58, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I grew up in Scotland, in the 70s and 80s in East Kilbride which is pretty central and typical, and we always called them 'cibies' and I was unaware of any other word for them until being exposed to goods labelled to suit the English in supermarkets. 82.12.115.25 (talk) 01:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually I think it's spelled syboe, plural: syboes in Scots. I'm Scottish, Scots speaking, born and brought up in East Lothian, still live there, and I've always called them syboes. I'm also old enough to remember independent greengrocers labelling them as such. Modern supermarkets in Scotland tend to use "spring onions" these days. To be honest, "syboe" is a Scots (not Scottish Gaelic) word, and not English - it comes from French "ciboule". It's pronounced like sigh-bee. In standard Scottish English it's simply called "spring onions". I have never heard anyone except the Irish and Americans call them scallions. The spelling is referenced at Wiktionary: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/syboe I have never seen the spelling "siobhes" as shown in the article. I think this should be changed to "syboes". In fact I've already changed it, unless anyone objects. Here's another quote "Ken yer spring ingans - Spring onions or syboes, add flavour tae the Dictionary of the Scots Language in a surprisingly mummer o literal and figurative quotations" link here: http://www.scottisharts.org.uk/1/artsinscotland/scots/wordofthemonth/archive.aspx and another reference to "syboe" here: http://heritage.caledonianmercury.com/2010/05/22/useful-scots-word-syboe/00822 --81.131.109.229 (talk) 12:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

The word "syboes" is used in Scotland, and it's still commonly used where I come from, just outside Edinburgh. I guess if you haven't lived in rural areas of lowland Scotland you wouldn't have heard it used much. I doubt it's used much in the main cities these days. It's a Scots word. See above comments under "Cibies" --81.131.109.229 (talk) 13:02, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I can only agree,the word syboe/syboes is still in common usage in most parts of Scotland,having lived around Glasgow and the West of Scotland all of my life these were always known as syboes until supermarkets starting labelling for UK and calling them spring onions. If you visit independant greengrocers you can still find them labeled as the Scots version Syboes194.176.149.230 (talk) 10:31, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Welsch—gibbons

Living in Wales, I must say I've never heard them called 'gibbons' before... The Pacifist 21:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It's from the Welsh term, shibwns (which is what I call spring onions, even when speaking English). I think that 'gibbons' is pronounced 'jibbons'. Gareth 14:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Shibwns is pronounced "shiboons" by the way, for those who don't know Welsh spelling which is a lot of people. I even new an English speaking Welsh woman who couldn't pronounce Welsh place-names correctly. Her children would constantly mock her, she told me. Mike Hayes (talk) 07:23, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Inappropriate taxobox

A genus taxobox is inappropriate here: a scallion is not a taxon, but a name for a number of different species and cultivars of Allium. I have removed it. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:15, 19 December 2013 (UTC)