Talk:Scottish Marches

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English Marches

I am going to have to disagree with the sentence that the Scottish Marches were the term for both sides of the border, The English side from the Northumberland coast to the Solway Firth and down to Lancaster is know as the English Marches (http://www.northeastengland.talktalk.net/Redesdale.htm "Carter Bar was the scene in 1575 of the REDESWIRE FRAY, one of the last major battles fought between the English and the Scots. The fray occured when a violent battle broke out, following an argument between a Warden of the English Marches and the Keeper of Liddesdale, who ironically, were both employed to keep the peace on their respective sides of the border"). --Pandaplodder (talk) 10:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose one could use "English-Scottish Marches" or "Anglo-Scottish Marches", but as a shorthand Scottish Marches and Welsh Marches are commonly used to mean the border lands between the three countries. --PBS (talk) 13:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Anglo-Scottish border

Copied from my talk page and the talk page of Dondegroovily:

Philip, I redirected Scottish Marches because I completed a merge. All the content that was there is at Anglo-Scottish border. I don't see any evidence that Scottish Marches is anything but another word for the border region. After all, all three articles that I merged (Border Country, Anglo-Scottish Border, and Scottish Marches) said exactly that.

I may, however be wrong. If you can demonstrate that Scottish Marches means something different and distinct from the border regions, I'd be willing to go along with keeping an article, but not with that content. The article needs to explain why Scottish Marches is different. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 02:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Border country where it was previously discussed. I suggest that if you want to merge the two then you discuss it on the talk page of Scottish Marches. -- PBS (talk) 02:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I read the talk page first and saw a clear consensus to merge. Four different users explicitly endorsed the merge, one explicitly suggesting a redirect, and you were the only one opposed. Thus, I did this in accordance to the talk page, so don't go tell me I'm violating consensus.

As you were clearly acting against the consensus here, I'm restoring the redirect. Please don't turn it back into an article unless it doesn't duplicate Anglo-Scottish Border. ... D O N D E groovily Talk to me 03:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

<--Outdent a new reply on this page.

What consensus? You did not even put up a merge template before you made the merge. The way it works is you make a bold edit, I revert and then we discuss it. Not you make a bold edit I revert, you revert, I revert etc. Please undo your revert of my revert while we discuss it.

As to a source we could do worse than start with this one:

Howard, Pease (1912). The lord wardens of the marches of England and Scotland: being a brief history of the marches, the laws of march, and the marchmen, together with some account of the ancient feud between England and Scotland. London: Constable. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

--PBS (talk) 04:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No revert at this time. I think in this case, Wikipedia:Ignore all rules and WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY apply. There was a very very clear consensus to do this merge on an almost identical article (Talk:Border country). The lack of a merge tag is not an argument against this consensus. Neither is your source - I have never doubted that Scottish Marches is a valid term for this region, so a book that uses that name does not show it should be a separate article (and it's a lot for me to read thru, so I won't yet comment on its content).

Four people expressing opinions on a different talk page to that of the two pages under discussion over a three year period does not represent a consensus one way or another. The article is only almost identical because you copied information from this page. However, this is a stuby page and can become much bigger. -- PBS (talk) 19:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain what makes Scottish Marches different than Anglo-Scottish Border. With a valid explanation, I would be willing to revert the redirect, but not without revising both articles to make the distinction clear. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 04:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Scottish Marches like the Welsh Marches were more that just the border it was the way in which particularly the English dealt with the boarder regions. Basically the Warders of the Marches held military and judicial powers that no other Lords in England did (see the reference). As the Scottish boarder was so far from London and the Scots had an annoying habit of invading England whenever the English were invading France, the Northern Lords could not be ignored by a southern king. Further the behaviour of the Marcher Lords had a direct impact on the politics of the two countries, if they so wished for their own perceived political gain they could initiate a war that affected the balance of power in their capitals. The Marches were a specific solution to a particular problem, they were not just about the physical border but about much more.

So please restore the article as this will in time expand into a much larger article. -- PBS (talk) 19:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, okay, but how do I make it an article distinct from Anglo-Scottish Border? Does the term refer to a specific historical era? I kind of have the impression that it's about mid to late medieval times. The way I see it, the main border article would have a history section, with a subsection called Scottish Marches, linking to a main article called Scottish Marches. I'm fine with having an article for it, I just don't want it to merely duplicate what's in Anglo-Scottish Border. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 03:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes quit so, we can date the scope of the article precisely (at least from an English perspective) from the creation of the first Lord Warden of the Marches in 1296 through to the reign of James I and the creation of his Middle Shires(p. 190). BTW the quote at on that page is particularly relevant to this conversation: "Well said [the Earl of Northumberland when arresting Wolsey for high treason] when I was sworn Warden of the Marches, you yourself told me, that I might with my staff arrest all men under the degree of King, and now I am more stronger, for I have a commission to do which you have seen". -- PBS (talk) 04:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Give it a read and see what you think. I'm sure I made some errors, so go ahead and fix them. Add to it all you want, but please keep the scope of the article between the 1200s and the Union. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 05:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like a good first cut (although I think we can cut it down to the period from Long Shanks to James I). I am working on a couple of other things at the moment, but will get back to it later this week. -- PBS (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Add disambiguation page

I looked up "East March" today, and was directed to the German currency "Ostmark".

I soon finished up here, following a global search, but we need a disambiguation for each of the marches.

I don't know how to do that, but suggest some cleverer fellow do it.John Wheater (talk) 07:42, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]