Talk:Seán South

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An Rialt[edit]

Sean South is categorized as a Roman Catholic because his page makes clear that he was a member of An Rialt (the Irish-speaking chapter of the Legion of Mary). Robbie 06:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, he must be so categorised. It had a big effect on his life. I see 'Removed Catholics category, not relevant to his notability)'. Not to you, perhaps, but in Limerick in the 1950s it was important. Or, is he only famous now because of the song?Red Hurley 16:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, if it play a significant part in his life then it should be recorded.--Vintagekits 16:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As the article stood at the time, the Catholics category had no particular relevance to his notability, and even now it doesn't assert that much notability. Please see Category:Roman Catholics for inclusion criteria. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It meant a lot to him; the Legion of Mary is not something you join on a whim, unless you have a lot of spare time.Red Hurley 18:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Breaking up couples in the cinema[edit]

This claim by Jim Kemmy is possible, but as Kemmy was a politician from a political tradition hostile to South's brand of republicanism I take this with a degree of caution. PatGallacher 16:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I love it, I laughed out loud, whats the source for the info.--Vintagekits 16:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm assuming it must be have published somewhere before his death in 1997, but this and this have some bearing, neither of which are reliable obviously. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Casual comments like this about 50 years after the event are hardly a reliable source. Can anyone come up with anything better? PatGallacher 18:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't suggesting they were reliable, in fact they make me more inclined to remove the information straight away, and it can be added back if and only if a reliable source is provided. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jim Kemmy is quite reliable enough for me. Probably none of us lived in Limerick 50 years ago. South was 'hi-viz' in Garryowen, he minded about some couples giving a bad example and distracting other watchers. There was no TV then, cinema mattered more.Red Hurley 18:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Prove he said it. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The web sources above are not good enough, but that is the gist of what I've read. Will take me time to find which article Kemmy wrote it in. Why aren't you concerned about the source for South being in the FCA? The Legion paraded outside our local lap-dancing club in the last few years. What South did in the cinema was no big deal; proactive, righteous indignation, that sort of thing.Red Hurley 19:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're the person adding unsourced information to an article, not myself. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, 'Will take me time to find which article Kemmy wrote it in.' I'll find it. Consider that South's need for order, his membership of the FCA and IRA and the Legion (which is arranged like a Roman Legion), 3 armies as it were, and his need for proactivity (cinemas / N. Ireland) all ties in as well. That is why I believe Kemmy but no-one else has to.Red Hurley 19:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying I don't believe Kemmy, it's just that I'd prefer it to be cited. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm serching you can all enjoy this Durrus and District History Modern Red Hurley 13:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I did enjoy nominating that and Durrus and District History for deletion, thanks! One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, a source in July 2011. I knew it was out there somewhere.Red Hurley (talk) 07:49, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cinema protests[edit]

I also read somewhere about Kemmy's comments about assaults on courting couples, but I also think he was slightly wrong. The ref I added today suggests that South opposed some Hollywood films being shown in Limerick because they were supposedly made by Communist sympathisers, but not so far as to beat anyone up over it. Kemmy was left-wing, South was right-wing, and that colours Kemmy's comment.86.42.216.147 (talk) 11:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have had a look at the Indymedia article given as a source. Although an interesting article which raises some legitimate questions, it also seems like an ill-digested collection of material. Can someone dig up the An Phoblacth obituary of South, which according to this article could be relevant? It claims that South was a member of Maria Duce, but gives no reference, the Wikipedia article on Fahy, the leader of this group says that he condemned the IRA as a communist organisation, which makes this sound a bit unlikely. At the very least, South cannot have been a member of Maria Duce at the time of his death since it disbanded in 1954, if he ever had been in the past then he could have repudiated this by joining the IRA. The article on right-wing aspects of the 1950s border campaign is a broken link. PatGallacher (talk) 22:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a link mentioning him setting up a branch of Maria Duce in Limerick.78.17.30.195 (talk) 20:56, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but it was mentioned earlier in the article. Actually I am of the opinion that he dropped Maria Duce and the Legion by the time he was on "active service". Nonetheless, thanks for your contribution, but do consider an id Lugnad (talk) 01:17, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably these articles are about their lives, not just about "active service", which didn't last very long by the sound of things.78.19.208.43 (talk) 10:16, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More details[edit]

I just did a quick tidy, put in references and tempory section heads. I'll pick up a book on this subject later in the week and clarify some of the details. For example was there 12 or 14 volunteers involved? Was it New Years Eve or Day? The article can and should be expanded, I just lack the time at the minute. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Birth date[edit]

We need clarification on his birth date, the sources appear to be contradictory. Unless he was actually killed on his birthday on 1 January (which is unlikely as I think we would have heard more about this if he had been) his age of 29 at death quoted in one source is inconsistent with his year of death quoted at another point. I suspect somebody did some crude arithmetic, but I cannot say which figure is accurate. PatGallacher (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This issue has not been satisfactorily resolved. Can anyone give an exact quote from the Irish dictionary of biography? Or may it be self-contradictory? Does noone know his exact date of birth? PatGallacher (talk) 17:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added the reference for the Irish dictionary of biography, but here is a quote if you think it helps.--Domer48_'fenian' 17:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"South, Sean (1928-1957), republican; born in Limerick...took part in the raid on Brookeborough RUC Battacks, Co. Fermanagh, on New Year's Eve, 1957, when he was killed, aged twenty-nine..."

At the risk of re-stating the obvious:-

a) Every other source says that he was killed on New Year's Day 1957, not New Year's Eve 1957, these dates are nearly a year apart,

b) These figures about his age and year of birth do not add up, unless he was killed on his birthday (unlikely, we would have heard more about this if he had been),

c) So I have some doubts about whether we can regard the Irish dictionary of biography as a wholly reliable source. PatGallacher (talk) 18:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Every other source says" Please tell us which sources you are talking about? Why did you ask for a quote from the Irish dictionary of biography if Every other source says. Put up evey other source and provide direct quotes from them. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:28, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There must be loads of sources which mention the now legendary attack on the Brookeborough barracks, and mention that it took place on 1 January 1957. See any competent history of the IRA, e.g. Tim Pat Coogan's work, or some of the links from Fergal O'Hanlon's article. I see the Irish News link says that South was born in 1928, so I suspect the Irish dictionary of biography was right about his year of birth but miscalculated his age. PatGallacher (talk) 20:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You said every other source says that he was killed on New Year's Day 1957, not New Year's Eve 1957, and I asked you to provide them. I asked you to quote from them, only to be told now "There must be loads of sources." You removed referenced text, even after you asked to be provided with a quote and got it. Now I'll replace the text again since you were unable to provide any sources. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article has cleary been subjected to a significant amount of vandalism recently, it may take a bit of work to sort this out from legitimate edits. PatGallacher (talk) 17:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Aiséirghe and Sean South[edit]

Douglas has pointed out in his book on Ailtirí na hAiséirghe,"Architects of the Resurrection" (pgs. 285-7) that South, although not a member, read and was influenced by Aiséirghe's publications. I feel this fact merits a mention either here or on the Aiséirghe page,given that Aiséirghe influenced South's beliefs. 86.41.79.89 (talk) 20:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

I did propose a merger of the 2 articles about a month ago on the talk page for the song, there were no objections. The article on the song is quite short (as we are unable to include the lyrics), this article is not very long, there is a large degree of overlap between them, it seems sensible to merge them.

Also, we do need to resolve the conflicting claims about the authorship of the song. PatGallacher (talk) 12:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I quote WP:MM: "Merging is a normal editing action, something any editor can do, and as such does not need to be proposed and processed. If you think merging something improves the encyclopedia, you can be bold and perform the merger, as described below. Because of this, it makes little sense to object to a merger purely on procedural grounds, e.g. 'you cannot do that without discussion' is not a good argument." PatGallacher (talk) 12:59, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

J. Bowyer Bell,The Secret Army: A History of The IRA. 1916-1979. Dublin: Gill and Macmillan, 1980.
Tim Pat Coogan, The I.R.A. London: Harper Collins, 1995.
Mainchín Seoighe, Maraíodh Seán Sabhat Aréir. Dublin: Sairséal agus Dill, 1964.
R.M. Douglas, Architects of the Resurrection: Ailtirí na hAiséirghe and the Fascist 'New Order' in Ireland. Manchester: Manchester University Press, 2009.
Live interview with Séamus Ó Dufaigh on TG4 Gaelic language television program Comhrá, 13 February 2008.
Des Fogarty, Seán South of Garryowen. A.K Ilen Company, 2006

Removed this from the article since it's unclear what, if anything, is being sourced by what, and in addition I fail to see how the radio interview is verifiable anyway. There's already inline citations for many things, so if anyone wants to add more inline citations from these go ahead. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:05, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Seán South/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Sean South was killed in the early morning hours on New Years Day in 1957. I was living in Limerick at the time and saw Sean South many times. He stood over 6 feet tall and had red hair.

Last edited at 20:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 05:51, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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