Talk:Selbstschutz

Selbstschutz and Selbstschutz

The two types of Selbstschutz are so different that they need to be organised in two separate articles, maybe prefaced by a disambiguation. Trinitrix (talk) 09:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the term in German is very broad and different organisations must not be grouped into one article only based on the name. Only the ones which are legally connected to each other (successors, branches), should be together. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 09:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

older issues

http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/hweb/imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-09-aggression-04-23.html Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression Volume I Chapter IX The Execution of the Plan to Invade Czechoslovakia<(Part 23 of 29)

A modern people and a modern state are today unthinkable without political troops. To these are allotted the special task of being the advance guard of the political will and the guarantor of its unity. This is especially true of the German folk-groups, which have their home in some other people's state. Accordingly the Sudeten German Party had formerly also organized its political troop, the Voluntary Vigilantes (Freiwilliger Selbstschutz), called 'FS' for short. This troop was trained essentially in accordance with the principles of the SS, so far as these could be used in this region at that time. The troop was likewise assigned here the special task of protecting the homeland, actively, if necessary. It stood up well in its first test in this connection, wherever in the fall crisis of 1938 it had to assume the protection of the homeland, arms in hand.

"After the annexation of the Sudeten Gau, the tasks of the FS were transferred essentially to the German student organizations as compact troop formations in Prague and Brunn, aside from the isolated German communities which remained in the second republic. This was also natural because many active students from the Sudeten Gau were already members of the FS. The student organizations then had to endure this test, in common with other Germans, during the crisis of March 1939 ***"

"*******

"In the early morning hours of March 15, after the announcement of the planned entry of German troops in various localities, German men had to act in some localities in order to assure a quiet course of events, either by assumption of the police authority, as for instance in Brunn, or by corresponding instruction of the police president, etc. In some Czech offices, men had likewise, in the early hours of the morning, begun to burn valuable archives and the material of political files. It was also necessary to take measures here in order to prevent foolish destruction ***. How significant the many-sided and comprehensive measures were considered by the competent German agencies, follows from the fact that

[Page 568]

many of the men either on March 15 itself or on the following days were admitted into the SS with fitting acknowledgment, in part even through the Reichsfuehrer SS himself or through SS Group Leader Heydrich. The activities and deeds of these men were thereby designated as accomplished in the interest of the SS.

"Immediately after the corresponding divisions of the SS had marched in with the first columns of the German Army and had assumed responsibility in the appropriate sectors, the men here placed themselves at once at their further disposition and became valuable auxiliaries and collaborators.***" (2826-PS)

The current page on Selbstschutz only treats one of the meanings of the term. The one not treated is related to civil defense, or Luftschutz/Zivilschutz. Selbstschutz can be defined as the local self-help of the civil population and of local and national institutions and infrastructures against air raids and catastrophes. The term will probably be coined in the 1930s as part of the German preparations for the Second World War.

The German Selbstschutz was part of a comprehensive system of air-raid protection conceived by the Hitler government and which covered the civil population, industry and public administrations.

There are several forms of Selbstschutz: - the Selbstschutz of the local population, organised by air wardens and forming small first intervention squads, - the Selbstschutz of infrastructures (railways, post and telecommunications, waterways, police, SS) and of public bureaucracies (ministry of finance, for instance).

Besides its official function, air-raid protection, the Selbstschutz and its organisation, the Reichsluftschutzbund, had additional functions: - preparing the German population for war, - fostering the feeling of belongingness (Volksgemeinschaft), - controling the political opinion (through the air-wardens) in the city wards, - security: collaborating with the police and the Gestapo.

After the end of World War II the organisation was dissolved.

With the Cold War and German rearmement a new Selbstschutz organisation was created, denazified, based on the experiences of its forerunner and organised by the Bundesluftschutzverband (BLSV), later rebaptized Bundesverband für den Selbstschutz (BVS). One of its major activities were the training of the civil population in first aid, or the propaganda for constructing air-raid shelters.

With the end of the Cold War the BVS was dissolved in 1997 (legal source: Bundesgesetzblatt 1997 Teil I Seite 731) (see http://www.jura.uni-sb.de/BGBl/TEIL1/1997/19970731.1.HTML)

In Switzerland active self-help in catastrophes is a continuing issue, see http://www.bbk.bund.de/cln_027/nn_403144/sid_BF88BCD26A1BA720B334336F4E0F87E3/DE/02__Themen/13__Aus__undWeiterbildung/03__Seminarkategorien/Selbstschutz.html__nnn=true

In the coming weeks I shall add some text to the Selbstschutz article

NPOV

I added an POV tag because of statements such as: "In the Silesia region Selbstschutz militia engaged in attacks against Polish activists and newspapers, and harassed the local Polish population. Its organised units fought against the Polish national liberation movement in the Third Silesian Uprising aimed at abolishing German rule over Poles."

now come on, "National Liberation Movement", "abolishing German rule over Poles", LMAO, that is some of the most blatant POV pushing I have ever seen.

"Poles imprisoned in those camps (consisting of men, women and youth) in the majority were murdered in cruel ways"

Okay, seriously, what other type of people are there besides men, women and youth? unless Poles have an extra fourth type of human that no other group does(sarcasm), why is that which is in parenthese needed?

In the Polish version of this section, there is a more detailed description: "The Poles who were imprisoned in those camps, including women and children, were mostly murdered in a cruel way. Those who were shot were finished off with spades, sometimes they were buried alive. Before being shot to death, women were raped and forced to put their children in the digged pits." Therefore, in my opinion the form of the sentence in question is not the reason of POV, but lack of more detailed information. The paragraph simply informs how each of the mentioned groups was treated. To avoid NPOV accusations in future, maybe we should add the phrase I translated. --Oronárë (talk) 00:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

"In the interwar period German minority organisations in Poland such as Jungdeutsche Partei, Deutsche Vereinigung, Deutscher Volksbund, Deutscher Volksverband actively cooperated with Nazi Germany, through espionage, sabotage, provocations and political indoctrination."

you seem to like to leave out facts that clarify matters, in that all national gov'ts support its national groups outside of its own borders. so supporting clubs financially that strive to maintain the cultural heritage of their members is supporting terrorism now? So by your definition the Canadian_Polish_Congress is a terrorist Organization!!! --Jadger 09:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Is the Canadian Polish Congress prepering arms in order to support Polish invasion, and making list of Canadians for execution ? Or are you suggesting that espionage, sabotage, provocations and political indoctrination is as you put it the cultural heritage of their members. Please don't be absurd. --Molobo 18:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Since you only addressed one point, I guess you agree with the rest. Given the number of all-out and all-embracing reverts, the author's neutrality on the subject is at best questionable. I would like all the sources used translated so I can check on them just like on Polonophobia, where there was an enormous number of inaccuracies and bias thanks to him. I've made some more corrections now and included some information taken from the Das Erste article. Before you revert my version, try to give an explanation for every undone part before edit warring. The same goes for Space Cadet. Just because you started the article, it still isn't yours. I'm not letting you undo good and time-consuming work for some reason that you wouldn't like to state. Sciurinæ 18:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC) The article reads like there was only one Selbstschutz. They may have had the same name but the Das Erste source [1] doesn't imply it was the same organisation but the same description for the militiamen. Sciurinæ 19:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Mennonite Groups

After adding this section, i realized it may have been a bit trivial, and being a Mennonite, i wouldn't be the one to judge that. If anyone has any strong opinions, feel free to voice them or make changes.MennoMan 23:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is trivial, but I do think it is misleading. For example, there were atrocities against the Mennonite population, but they came months after the Selbschutz had been founded. See http://libcom.org/history/makhnovists-mennonites-war-peace-ukrainian-civil-war 72.66.63.221 (talk) 01:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This should be incorporated into the main article. Other articles about the Russian Mennonites also advance that opinion, based on Smith, despite the research by Libcom.

Given the nature and character of the Russian Civil War, it would be wrong to suggest that had the Selbstschutz not existed, that atrocities against the Mennonite population could have been avoided. This conflict was brutal against all civilian populations and it is naïve to assume that Mennonites could have avoided this if only they had not formed a Selbstschutz. The reality is nuanced. In many cases, the Selbstschutz may well have saved civilian lives; in other cases, actions of the Selbstschutz may well have provoked retaliation - such is the sad reality of civil war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.14.56 (talk) 16:22, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Split

I believe this suggestion was made before - it does seem like this article could use a split into two (or more) separates ones; one on the post war civil defense organizations used in cases of natural disaster and the second on the historical para-military units responsible for mass murders and war crimes during WWII committed on Poles, Jews and Czechs. A third possible article is on the Mennonite units of the same name active during the Russian Revolution in the Ukraine - there's some overlap here with the early forms of Selbstschutz of WWI (it might make sense for this also to be separated out), since these were organized with German backing, but I think the Mennonite organizations were distinct enough to have an article of their own. The vast majority of sources under the subject matter "Selbstschutz" are either on the WWII organizations and their role in the Holocaust, or on the Mennonite one. The stuff on civil defense and even the WWI version get scant coverage. Thoughts?radek (talk) 04:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I suggest a complete re-write is needed

Honestly it is awfully chaotic, and I guess maybe splitting it would improve understandability too. Clearly one thing written about here are the first para- then military groups of Germans living in Poland, and that could be one article. The other meaning(s) need another article.
The article doesn't seem to stick to any kind of chronological order either, making it difficult to follow.--109.196.118.133 (talk) 01:46, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Another request

As noted since, 2010 this article is a mess because it combines several organisations that share the name Selbstschutz. They are clearly not the same thing or have any relationship to one another. This article should be a disambiguation page to the separate articles. 86.160.110.186 (talk) 12:07, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

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Splitting proposal

I propose that this article be split into multiple other articles that would have a clearer scope: Selbstschutz (Mennonite), Selbstschutz Oberschlesien and Selbstschutz (World War II), although the latter could be merged into the Volksdeutscher Selbstschutz. Actually, Selbstschutz itself should be about de:Selbstschutz, which apparently is civilian self-defence against natural disasters and such. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)