Talk:Serbia v Albania (UEFA Euro 2016 qualifying)

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Albania Low‑importance

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Serbia Low‑importance

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Confusing wording

"A UEFA Euro 2016 qualifying match involving the national association football teams of Serbia and Albania took place on 14 October 2014 at Partizan Stadium, in Belgrade, Serbia. The match was abandoned after several on and off the field incidents. Serbian fans had chanted "Ubij, ubij, Šiptara" (Kill the Albanians),[1] and threw flares and other objects on the pitch. At that point a drone quadcopter carrying an Albanian nationalist banner with an image of Greater Albania appeared on the pitch."

This part of the article makes it sound that Serbian fans first started chanting Ubij Siptara, and that drone appeared after the fact. It was the other way around. 178.149.154.12 (talk) 18:46, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dervicani attacks

Per references the attacks in Dervicani happened as part of nationalist violence in the aftermatch of the specific game. In fact they need to be mentioned as part of this article.Alexikoua (talk) 13:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Initially I thought they were unrelated, but then I saw your insistance and I gave in. Furthermore I added news about the Greek border police stopping the Albanains from entering Greece, which is in the news and changed the title of your section appropriately. --Edhe1perMamin (talk) 15:57, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Banning of Albanians from entering greece

There was no such thing as a banning of the Albanians from entering Greece , rather among the many tourists entering greece from albania , some did not have the sufficient amount of money to justify their stay as per Shengen rules , for visa free travel between Albania and Eu countries . As such i will change the the title , and i will remove that part Gjirokastra15 (talk) 16:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the source was a bad one, I didn't check for a second there, but I trust your opinion, since from your nickname you seem to be familiar with the area. --Edhe1perMamin (talk) 18:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On a second thought that section should be a paragraph , and the title should be renamed to > Violence after the Match < , where shops of ethnic Albanian minority in Serbia were set on Fire in Serbia , Fights of ethnic Albanian kids vs ethnic Serbian kids in Montenegro , the nationalistic attack on the greek village of Dervicani from Lazarati ( a troublesome village ) , The attack on the embassy of Albania in Montenegro by Serbians who later were caught by police etc. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 17:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's a good change. --Edhe1perMamin (talk) 18:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 October 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Speedily closed as a move. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 22:39, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Serbia v Albania → Serbia v Albania (UEFA Euro 2016 qualifying) – More correct title. There were previous matches between this nations in different sports. 91.124.179.74 (talk) 11:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. QED237 (talk) 11:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support – Better and informative title, current title does not even explain that is is a special event it could be a general article comparing to countries. QED237 (talk) 11:29, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The "v" is only for matches, afaik. Edhe1perMamin (talk) 15:45, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mountains of support Though a worse title would have been Serbia v Kosova. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:10, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - current title could refer to a match in any other sport, or even something non-sport related like a legal case or a war......... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That would be Serbia vs Albania, this is Serbia v Albania, and it's used for sports. This is the only match between the two countries. Edhe1perMamin (talk) 15:44, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Vs" and "v" are both short for the same word and "vs" is used in a sporting context just as much as "v" - for example this news article about this specific match uses "vs", as does this one and this one and this one and this one and this one. There is nothing in the current title to specifically indicate to a casual reader that it refers to a sporting match -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You make a good case. How about Serbia v Albania (football game)? I am more concerned about the retrievability of the article in various search engines on the web than about anything else. If the title is too descriptive, the searchability decreases. Edhe1perMamin (talk) 21:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Albanian-Serbian War ... what happens to this title after this move? -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 07:05, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: I was the one moving it. In pronciple I have nothing big against the proposed title, but it is too descriptive. This is the ONLY match so far between the two countries. When there will be another one, and if it will be as famous (or notorious) as this one then we can rename. Anyways, it's a weak oppose, but still an oppose. Edhe1perMamin (talk) 15:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support The current title is confusing at best. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:54, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support if only to distinguish from Albania–Yugoslav border incident. Giant Snowman 16:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

improper edit

This edit while doing some good things, reduced the size of the article and removed sourced information. Please review. Edhe1perMamin (talk) 15:46, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Restored. --Edhe1perMamin (talk) 18:02, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

not a flag of "Greater Albania"

The drone was not carrying a flag of the so-called "Greater Albania", because no such flag exists. There is a wide misconception by the international media and I demand care by Wikipedia to not fall under this journalistic trap. The flag in question is accessible here ^[1]. It has three elements
- i) The two national Albanian heroes and founders of the Republic of Albania, Isa Boletini and Ismail Qemali.
- ii) The date of the independence declaration of the Republic of Albania, 28/11/1912
- iii) A map of the territories that were claimed by the Albanian delegates before the declaration of independence. Such a map of territories covers the territories where Albanians lived at the time and was a guidance for the Albanian delegation during the London Conference of 1912–13. In the end the conference denied the requests of the Albanian delegation.

Therefore, the flag should probably characterized as "carrying Albanian nationalistic symbols", not "symbol of Greater Albania". For your information, the term "Greater Albania" is a metaphor used by Albania's neighboring countries, especially Serbia, to describe Albanians' self-determination movements in Kosovo and Macedonia. However, it does not exist in any concrete form, neither as any ideological platform, nor has any Albanian politician advocating it, nor has any concrete organizational support, nor has it ever been historically an Albanian movement for "Greater Albania". One would observe mostly Serbian and Greece press talking about "Greater Albania", I never heard any Albanian talking about "Greater Albania". In brief, "Greater Albania" is a metaphor term to describe a phenomenon, it is not any concrete movement and obviously has no flag of its own. OppositeGradient (talk) 12:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/522954271642238978/nth2JNub_400x400.jpeg

Albanian nationalists

As always User:Alexikoua wants to bring the Greeks in the center of the universe, even when they hardly have anything to do with the article. The topic is already sensitive and hard to keep in neutral form, so less Greek propaganda would be appreciated.

In general, the so called "torching and flaming" came out to be car windows smashed, reported by only two portals, one of each is everything but NPV. The "Times of Change" article talks about "Muslims that curse Christians", without mentioning that the incident happens in an area (Gjirokaster) with Albanian Christian majority. It also ignores the fact that any Albanian sentiment towards the Greeks is due to their "shared neighborhood" conflicts and history and not to ones' religion. It cites Albanians as "Muslim terrorists". Meanwhile the article picture shows people dancing!
Albanian nationalists. There is no excuse for hooliganism. People who go and damage other people's properties are already defined long ago as "hooligans", "vandals", "extremists", etc. It may happen that they are nationalists as well. But being an "Albanian nationalist" and being a "hooligan who hates Greeks" are not necessary the same thing. Did someone interview them and they claimed to be nationalists? Did any nationalist movement take responsibility? What if they were paid to create incidents on purpose? Are there any trial or police records about the motive? Whoever added that sentence made some strong deductions jumping to Albanian nationalism.

--Mondiad (talk) 03:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(ignore wp:npa barrage) The incidents about the nationalist motivated attacks against Greek minority settlements in Northern Epirus is well cited. This doesn't need to be further explained: Inceidents created by a group of 100 nationalist hooligans bearing nationalist banners and shouting nationalist slogans. You might agree that the concept of g.Albania isn't only adapted by nationalists but this isn't the case of this article.Alexikoua (talk) 07:38, 21 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The notion of "100 nationalist hooligans" which sounds more like science fiction than a serious journalistic article, comes through the nationalistic source from within Greece that you placed, the one that talks about flaming and torching and burning while none of these happened, and the one that states "will burn you Christians!" trying to give religious colors to the event. And partially from B92. The article from B92 (Serbian one) shows the picture of a bakery burned down, but that is a bakery in Serbia - not in Dervican. Read the article.

Not only they were "Albanian nationalists" but now they were 100. No serious source is mentioned. No police reports or transcripts. No interviews or post-investigation. Another attempt of complicating things?

The Balkan News Agency doesn't mention any of these. In fact, all that is mentioned is that the Greek side protested. Nothing about any "100 nationalists" or "torching".--Mondiad (talk) 03:13, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments like: the source is non-Albanian=pov source, can't be taken as serious. All we can do is to check if the specific sources pass wp:RS and as far as we can see they are fine. I would say that their neutrality is guarantted contrary to albaneu and similar sites used in the current version as inlines. As for the Greek media, kathimerini is one of the most well-known & neutral newspapers and it also confirms the event [[1]]. Independent.mk confirms this national hysteria too, in detail [[2]]: A group of about 100 people, holding flags and banners with nationalist slogans, drove to the village near Greece's border with Albania where they smashed shop windows and vandalized parked cars until they were stopped by police.Alexikoua (talk) 17:33, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Spain-Gibraltar issue

I removed that Spain and Gibraltar couldn't be placed in the same group because, at the time of the qualifying group, Gibraltar weren't UEFA members. Doing this because I forgot to put an edit summary. Nick F., Toaster (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But Gibraltar participated in the qualifying matches? Eni.Sukthi.Durres (talk) 15:35, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] ttps://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/522954271642238978/nth2JNub_400x400.jpeg

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