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Seyi Shay

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Moved from [an old revision of Darreg's talk page]
 – Article relevant discussion copied here and collapsed on user talk page.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 22:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Darreg. Hope all is well on your end? I reverted the edit you made to the Seyi Shay article because I don't believe it was constructive. Seyi Shay didn't start her music career in Nigeria. She was already an established act prior to relocating to Nigeria. If you say that she is a British-born Nigerian artist, you'd be implying that she started her career in Nigeria. I hope I was able to clear things up for you. I know you made a strong case for the wording in the Davido article years ago, but I believe you are wrong this time. I remember the three of us (you, User:Jamie Tubers, and I) tried reaching consensus here, but to no avail. Perhaps, Jamie Tubers can open up the discussion once more. This time around, we can get input from User:Mahveotm, User:Oluwa2Chainz, User:Celestina007, and anyone else interested in partaking in the discussion. Why did you decide to delete your userpage? You can ignore this question if you do not want to answer it.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 02:59, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hello, If its okay with Darreg, I will open the discussion again, with a lil tweak (that will be similar to the Wikipedia !voting process) in order to aid clearer consensus. I'll also invite all the Nigerians that I know on Wikipedia to participate. I'll expect you guys to also invite others. Hopefully, we can generate a much broader inputs from many editors this time around.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 11:28, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Tubers please go ahead, its fine by me. @Versace This is just to acknowledge your message, I still do not agree with the present state of the article as regards her nationality. The reason I didn't reply on time was because I have some ground breaking proofs that I am yet to decide if I should disclose. Concerning deletion of my userpage, we will discuss that another time. Darreg (talk) 14:47, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Darreg: Please disclose of the groundbreaking proof you have.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 22:36, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment @Versace1608 I'm sorry for replying late, i had seen the message a long time ago but i was not in my comfort zone even as i type this i still am not very well. I however have gathered the strength to contribute to this discussion, i reviewed your changes to the Seyi Shay article and one of your edit summaries implied you made the changes based on information from her (subject of disccusion's) official webpage, if that so be the case, then there isnt a reason for this discussion as information obtained from one's personal site is superior to any 3rd party publication. i believe an intellect like yourself, Jamie Tubers and Darreg are more than capable of handling this situation.Celestina007 (talk) 18:58, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

First, let us establish what we are clear about in reliable sources:

1. Shay was born in England to Nigerian parents

2. Shay started her music career in the UK but wasn't highly notable even though she had featured with several notable American artists.

3. Shay had her high school and college in Nigeria and UK respectively.

4. Shay is a top female Nigerian artiste today

May I start by saying that the present "Nigerian-based English singer" has been there for years and many semi-notable sites have replicated the information on their platforms and as such you will see alot of that online, doesn't make it appropriate. This is one reason why I believe Wikipedia needs to exercise extreme caution when dealing with biography of living persons. I consider it misleading and possibly incorrect to describe Seyi Shay as "Nigerian-based English singer", when it isn't certain in reliable sources that she has British citizenship. Unlike the American system where being born in US soil will almost automatically get you a green card if you apply for it, according to UK government website, individuals born since early 1980s needs to satisfy certain grand conditions before being granted British citizenship, one of which could be if either of your parents is British. that clearly doesn't apply here, so we need to know if Shay met the other conditions. You can't possibly call someone a "British singer", when it isn't clear that she holds a British passport.

Frank Rajah Arase and Akin Omotoso, who are notable film directors in Ghana and South Africa respectively, yet we sticked to the nationality in their passport, which is Nigerian, which I believe is definitely the right thing to do.

SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT, SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT, SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT, SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT, SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT, SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT, SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT, SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT, SEYI SHAY HAS NIGERIAN PASSPORT

I have no information on whether she's also British.

For now my suggestion is "British born Nigerian singer...", but if it can be established that she holds dual citizenship, then "Nigerian British singer..." will be perfect in this case.

As for the information on her website, I didn't see anything that suggest she is also British. I need a good source that says she's british, not some Wikipedia mirrored text site. The reason I'm doing all this is that I am concerned about the correct information being on Wikipedia. I still haven't disclosed my ground breaking evidence, but let's just say I am more connected to Seyi Shay than millions of Nigerians that follow her music. Darreg (talk) 23:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Darreg: Since you are more connected to Seyi Shay, you shouldn't be editing the article per the WP:COI guideline. If you want changes made to the article, you should leave a note on the article's talk page. Per her official website, she identifies as a Nigerian-based singer. It is wrong to assert that she should be address as "a British-born Nigerian singer". Do you have a reliable source that address her as such? Seyi Shay is an English singer because she was born there and started her music career there. She relocated to Nigeria and is currently based there. I don't understand why you're complicating things. The repetitive statement in your reply isn't necessary Darreg.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 00:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I personally feel Seyi Shay is best referred to as "British Nigerian". That's essentially what she is. Besides, she's identified with both Nationalities one way or another, at different points. The current wording, makes her seem like, she has no other connection with Nigeria, than just being based there, meanwhile, she actually accepts Nigerian nationality, she definitely has a Nigerian citizenship too, most probably along with a British citizenship. On another note, maybe the Wikipedia page should just conform with what is written on her official website; "Nigerian-based singer", without trying to push into dominance either of the Nationalities.
P.S: I'll open the discussion page again in a few days, after making a few edits.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 00:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Jamie Tubers: Please provide a source that supports your wording about her being referred to as "British Nigerian". She may accept being Nigerian, but that shouldn't take away from the fact that she is English. She started her music career in England and is even signed to Island Records, a British record label.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 01:00, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • So how does "British Nigerian" take away that she's English? The term basically represents both Nationalities she's connected with. Or maybe you'd rather say "English Nigerian"? That's okay too. I'm basing my verdict on the arguments here. I'm generally indifferent to whatever appears on Seyi Shay's page as her Nationality.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 01:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The type of "connection" I have with Seyi Shay is not one that contravenes WP:COI policy. Rather, it's a connection that ensures that information that incorrectly desribes her is removed from her article. It's similar to the one I have for Jesus Christ, Lionel Messi, Goodluck Jonathan, etc. totally within the provisions of WP:COI, you can ask admins for clarifications, there is nothing I have done so far that suggest biased editing in favour or against her. I have been following a lot of WP BLP controversies, and the general consensus here is that opinion of persons that a BLP article is about do matter, especially in core attributes such as nationality, inline with WP policies of course. I'm surprised that you quickly had to play the COI card to diminish any contradicting argument. It's because of perceptions such as this that is why I deleted my userpage. This is even arguably my first edit to her article. I don't know your understanding of where COI applies, but for record purposes I haven't met Seyi in real life, neither have I met any of her management team or anyone that represents her. she hasn't met me too, she doesn't know I'm Darreg on WP, none of her management team know I'm Darreg on WP. I don't even know who are management team are, my reasons are strictly based on ensuring right information alone are present on WP, and not particular to Seyi's article in any way. Darreg (talk) 01:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Jamie Tubers: I am simply saying provide a source that states this. The lady is English and her official bio states that she is a Nigerian-based singer. I really don't understand why Darreg is asking about passport. Does he expect her to upload her passport online for the whole world to see? I know Davido did that, but not everyone is comfortable with that.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 01:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Darreg: You were the one who said that you are connected to Seyi Shay. I was simply telling you that if you have some sort of strong connection to Seyi Shay, Wikipedia's COI policy prohibits you from editing the article. I am not trying to diminish your argument here. Let's try to reach consensus bro. I am all for factual accuracy. Please, I'd like to know what discrepancy you have about Jesus Christ.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 01:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't get your argument Versace; alot of sources actually call Seyi Shay a "Nigerian singer". Some other sources also say "English singer". Are you saying, one should be ignored for the other? It's either you represent all the viewpoints, per WP:NPOV or you stick to what she has defined for herself on her official website. I wonder why this is causing so much ruckus between you two. My take is to use "British Nigerian singer"/"English Nigerian singer", per sources, or you use "Nigerian based singer" per her website. This is not that complicated, for all the long story that is happening here. Actually, I'd rather the page is worded as "Nigerian singer", simply because, right now, her ties is much greater to Nigeria, than England, but I'm not even that interested to try to debate.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 19:21, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing I discovered recently is that her birth-name in the article might not be completely accurate. Birthname ought to be the name at birth. The thing is her dad and mum separated when she was quite young, and she chose to stay with her mum afterwards, this made her drop her dad's surname in her later years, even when she began singing in the UK, she was using her dad's name. The Naij article suggests that she is in good terms with her dad now though. I suggest it is removed if it's too trivial or edited appropriately. Darreg (talk) 20:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Jamie Tubers: If you want us to use the term "British Nigerian", you should provide a source that explicitly states this. You can't derive this by simply looking at different sources. I am sticking to how she described herself in her bio. She said that she is a "Nigerian based International Recording Artist, Songwriter, and Performer. Born and raised in London, UK to Nigerian Parents, She began performing at the age of six." If I were writing this in my own words, I'd say that she is a Nigerian-based singer, songwriter, and performer from Tottenham, England. How is this any different from simply saying that she is a Nigerian-based English singer, songwriter, and performer. If Darreg agrees with the former wording, I don't mind making changes to the lede. Darreg is the one complicating things here. There's absolutely nothing wrong with how the article is currently worded.
@Darreg: Please stick to the name being used in reliable sources. The singer herself said that her name is Deborah Oluwa-seyi Joshua. Why do you want to include a name that she doesn't identifies with?  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 22:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes I feel like you don't read people's post completely before replying. I have said nothing about the name used in the article. I am talking about the BIRTHNAME in the infobox alone. BIRTHNAME IN INFOBOX, BIRTHNAME IN INFOBOX, BIRTHNAME IN INFOBOX. It's either it is removed completely or its edited appropriately. The present name isn't her birthname. And I provided a source to back it up. Mohammed Ali wants to be called Mohammed Ali at all times but his birthname will forever remain Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr, whether he likes it or not. birth name isn't negotiable. Darreg (talk) 23:15, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tubers I completely agree with your last submission. And I mean 100% agreement with all your points. I feel like we think alike most times. Darreg (talk) 23:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Darreg: You really need to stop repeating things in bold. I understand that you're mad right now, but this is a bit childish. Please calm down and let's get to the bottom of this. I fully read your reply before responding. The name in the lede is the exact name in the infobox. In the interview conducted by Naij.com, she didn't state her birth name. The olisa.tv link you provided isn't loading on my end. If the latter link provided her birth name, then go ahead and make the changes to the article.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 23:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Did you just call me MAD? Wow! Good night Versace, do as you please to the article. Darreg (talk) 23:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I said you're mad, meaning you're angry. I didn't say you are crazy. Please don't take my statement out of context. I know better than to insult you Darreg. Have I ever insulted you before? Why are you getting so emotional right now?  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 23:49, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You have never insulted me or anyone on Wikipedia since I knew you here, that is why I got quite emotional that such a statement would be coming from you. I'm okay with you referring to my actions as being kinda childish, but "mad" was too strong for me. But since you said it means another thing then its cool. Have the second link opened at your end? What do you think about it? My position is that the birth-name column should be left empty for now. Darreg (talk) 23:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for understanding Darreg. I try very hard to be nice online and offline to everyone. I found another source that verifies the name Seyi Odedere. I am going to make changes to the article immediately. I was able to open the Olisa.tv source. Now we can go back to focusing on the nationality part.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 00:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Remember the Davido's case of about three years ago, before we settled for "American born Nigerian" from "Nigerian American", there wasn't a source refering to him as such but we came to an agreement based on our understanding and interpretation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, I think the same applies here, it isn't all about finding a source that describes her in a particular way, sure we need to be guided by references for whatever nationality we choose in the lede. I believe consensus with sound argument takes preeminence over just copying and pasting what we find in a single source. Darreg (talk) 08:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Versace, "British Nigerian" is not just an arbitrary tag that needs a reference specifically stating it, for it to be included. British Nigerian simply means either three things: "A British with a Nigerian ancestry", or "a Nigerian with British ancestry", or "a person who holds both Nigerian and British citizenship". If a subject satisfies the MEANING of a word/phrase, based on reliable sources then such word/phrase can be used to describe them, without a source specifically saying the exact word/phrase. Wikipedia is against lifting sentences word for word anyway. Your request for a source is like asking that you need a source specifically calling a subject that won three AMAAs, "an AMAA-winning actress", before the phrase can be used to describe them in the lead. Based on what both you and Darreg are saying about Seyi, and the sources discussing her, she is obviously British Nigerian. If you don't like the term, then use what she has put on her official website "Nigerian based". She has refused to claim any nationality on her website, so we can do that on her wiki page too. But if you choose to use what reliable sources say, then views of all the sources must be duely represented. Just calling her a "Nigerian singer", I can agree with, since she is currently by far strongly tied with Nigeria (google news brings only around 500 results for English, while it gives around 5,000 results for Nigerian), but calling her just "English" is so off. Infact per Wikipeda policy on undue weight, her English ties is so small right now, to call her "British Nigerian", talkless having her English ties to be dominant in the lead. However, it's fine with me to call her British Nigerian, or just remove the nationality wording overall, simply stating her base, per what she has chosen for her website. Note that it is possible to state both her dual nationality and base at the same time (eg: "Nigerian-based British Nigerian singer"). I'm fine with that too. But Calling her just "English/British" is very misleading.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 12:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Jamie Tubers: I am going to settled for "Nigerian-based". I understand what you're saying, but still disagree with the "British Nigerian" wording. You yourself said that she didn't claim any nationality, so let's just keep it that way. I should also point out that Seyi Shay started singing professionally in 2001 and relocated to Nigeria in 2011. 10 of her 16-year professional career so far was spent in England. The only reason why she has more hits in Nigeria is because she relocated there and has released more content in the country. @Darreg: Do you agree with what the Nigerian-based wording?  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 22:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
yes....yes...fine by me. Better than calling her a British singer alone.Darreg (talk) 07:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contradicting wording

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Just went through this article for the first and I realized there might be another contradicting/misleading statement in the lead. The lead states that Seyi was raised in UK, meanwhile, in the body of the article, Seyi apparently had her secondary education in Lagos. Isn't the secondary school age bracket part of the "growing up" age?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 23:39, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jamie Tubers: According to this source cited in the article, the subject herself stated: I was born and raised in the UK but my parents are Nigerians. My mom is from the north and my day is from Ife, Osun State. My parents lived in London for over twenty years to provide good education for their kids. I’d started visiting Nigeria when I was two because that was the tradition in my family. I returned home later and started schooling at Command High School, Maryland, Lagos. I went back to the UK to complete my education at the college and the university. My foray veered from singing in church to singing in the school and singing secular in the studio. And then, the songs that I composed with the Harmony Group was taken from me and used for bigger artistes in the UK. That was fine, but I still had it in my mind that I was going to be an artiste and sing my own songs. I added this info based on sourcing. Yes, the secondary school age is part of growing up. I will tweaked the info in the lede.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 00:01, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Seyi Shay. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:37, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Recent changes to Infobox

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Hi TheCxcx,
I made changes to the Infobox, specifically to the label field. I added Stargurl Limited per the reliable source you provided, and also included Island Records as her former label. This article published by The New York Times stated that Island Records was her former label. I know I told you earlier that I will remove Island Records once a reliable source states this. However, per Template:Infobox musical artist, it is perfectly okay to include former labels to which artists have been signed. I hope I clarified things for you. If you need changes made to the article, please don't hesitate to put in a proposal here. Thanks.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 18:54, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Page Updates

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Requesting new single 'Ko Ma Roll' be added to singles table as well as videography links:

single - https://tooxclusive.com/download-mp3/seyi-shay-x-harmonize-ko-ma-roll-new-song/

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6ZTwpotkOs

TheCxcx (talk) 07:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi TheCxcx, I  Resolved this issue.  Versace1608  Wanna Talk? 19:42, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:58, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Game

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Ilikewath — Preceding unsigned comment added by 102.89.2.154 (talk) 12:05, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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