Talk:Shigi Qutuqu

Requested move 20 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move. (non-admin closure) VR _talk 00:52, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

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Shikhikhutug → Shigi Qutuqu – Shigi Qutugu seems to appear more in sources and has an English spelling, while Shikhikhutug has a Mongol spelling and doesn't much appear in sources. Beshogur (talk) 12:24, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Support - obviously the alternative transliteration can still be kept there in the first sentence. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:47, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 15:18, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Shigi Qutuqu, a high-ranking official during the early Mongol Empire, had survived the first four Mongol khans when he died at over the age of eighty? Source: Buell, Paul D. (2003). Historical Dictionary of the Mongol World Empire. Lanham: The Scarecrow Press. p. 243. ISBN 9780810845718.
  • ALT1: ... that Shigi Qutuqu was humiliated by his adopted father Genghis Khan after he was defeated at the Battle of Parwan in 1221? Source: McLynn, Frank (2015). Genghis Khan: His Conquests, His Empire, His Legacy. Hachette Books. p. 308. ISBN 978-0-306-82395-4.
  • ALT2: ... that Shigi Qutuqu, the adopted son of Genghis Khan, may have played a role in the creation of the Secret History of the Mongols? Source: Ratchnevsky, Paul (1993). "Sigi Qutuqu (c. 1180–c. 1260)". In de Rachewiltz, Igor (ed.). In the Service of the Khan: Eminent Personalities of the Early Mongol-Yüan Period (1200-1300). Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag. pp. 90–93.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Visa policy of Azerbaijan

5x expanded by AirshipJungleman29 (talk). Self-nominated at 12:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Shigi Qutuqu; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

•  Reviewing... PalauanLibertarian^🗣️ 18:17, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

PalauanLibertarian just to let you know, I'll be away from my computer between 31 May and 6 June, so comments can only be replied to before or after. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Good article. ALT0 and ALT2 are good. Erring on the side of caution with ALT1 because it's too negative. PalauanLibertarian^🗣️ 17:35, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Shigi Qutuqu/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aza24 (talk · contribs) 06:51, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Happy to review this! Aza24 (talk) 06:51, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Aza24, ready when you are! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:31, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Comments below! Lead is last Aza24 (talk) 03:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Early life

• I feel like we're missing a sentence with his birth year!

• Can't do that—as said in the second paragraph, the best we can do is "probably a young child in the early 1180s"

• Is the "1178" in the lead/infobox out-dated then? Aza24 (talk) 03:28, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• It's more or less a scholar's educated guess, so I've added an inline citation.

• The first sentence might be read as Rashid al-Din having authored both sources. Also, I think you can drop the "Hamadani", which I've never seen in scholarship before and is probably just there for article title's disambiguation

• Fixed both

• Most readers won't know who Temüjin is; a "(later "Genghis Kahn)" might be beneficial. It would be good to introduce him too, i.e. "the Mongol Leader Temüjin"

• Done both

• Don't know that jerkin is common enough to not have a link

• Done.

• What does "in the chronicles" mean—The Secret History? Or something else? Since these stories are somewhat anecdotal, the specific source might be helpful

• Clarified, after some searching.

Under Genghis

• For the Yuán Shǐ you have tones but not for the Shengwu qinzheng lu—would keep it consistent either way

• Can't remember what it would be for the SQZL, so removed.

Under Ögedei

• Maybe specific the "Southern Song Dynasty"

• Done.

• "As a leading Mongol scholar and official, Shigi Qutuqu was appointed in 1234 to the position of chief jarghuchi in Northern China" — so does this mean he was based in Northern China now?

• It's implied by the sources and RS but not fully certain.

• "while other sources blame ..." seems to vague. Are these other contemporary accounts like Xu Ting or later chronicles or something?

• Hsu T'ing's "Hei-ta shih lueh", yes. I couldn't find a relevant article, so I didn't specify. Included a redlink now—feel free to change it if you think something else more suitable.

• I'm not sure this makes sense. I believe Hsu T'ing is simply the Wade-Giles transliteration of Xu Ting. You might have the same person twice here? Aza24 (talk) 03:28, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• No, you're completely right, I have no clue why I wrote that. Corrected to who actually wrote that.

• Assuming no, but we don't know anything more specific than "he probably returned to Mongolia"—like to the capital or something?

• Changed to Karakorum, as that's where the kurultai was held—would be odd if he returned to another part of Mongolia.

• "Shigi Qutuqu survived the new khagan, Möngke ..." makes it sounds like Möngke was killing people that threatened his power or something—assuming you just mean that he survived at least until he began reigning?

• A little bit of both—many prominent followers of Ogedei were purged/impoverished following Möngke's accession, as the election was contested; but also SQ did just outlive him.

Legacy

• This feels like it should be a subheading level 2 and not a part of the biography

• Probably, yes.

• You could link Late Middle Ages instead of "late Middle Ages"

• I just saw that both those pages define themselves as periods of European history, so I've gone for Post-classical history, which, incidentally, we both peer reviewed a while back.

• Good choice! Aza24 (talk) 03:28, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• I'm a bit confused by the line "He was remembered, under the name Siri Qutuq, as a high-ranking companion of Genghis Khan until the late Middle Ages."—what was he remembered for after this? Or was he forgotten?

• Hopefully clarified, and I believe yes, he was eventually forgotten with the passing time

• The "Not only was ..."—sentence is rather long and hard to parse—could it be split or consolidated?

• Split.

General

• In general, basic information on the art included is always helpful for readers. Particularly, it's nice to know if the depictions are contemporaneous with their subjects or not

• Done to my satisfaction; let me know if anything could be improved.

• I see his son is mentioned in the legacy—are there any other known offspring that can be mentioned in the bio?

• Sadly not.

• I'll read through the lead again later but it looks fine. Would be nice to source the Chinese & Mongol names if possible Aza24 (talk) 03:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

• I'll see if I can find them. Thanks Aza24 for your comments! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:39, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

• It's looking great! I think there are just two points remaining (which I've responded to above)—the birth year and Xu/H'su Ting matter – Aza24 (talk) 03:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Those should be fixed now, Aza24. Thanks very much. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

  Looks good. Passing now, congrats! Aza24 (talk) 19:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

suggestions

For legacy, add in that there is a university named after him, the Shihihutug University. Also, he is one of the figures at the Genghis Khan Statue Complex. (see the annotation at Gate to the Genghis Khan Equestrian Statue, Tsonjin Boldog.jpg) PalauanLibertarian^🗣️ 17:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@PalauanLibertarian, I've added the university namesake, but can't find a source for the statue that identifies Shigi Qutuqu in it—do you know of any? Aza24 (talk) 20:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

In popular culture, Mongolian hard rock band The Hu included a song in memory of Shigi Qutuqu, albeit with different spelling (Shihi Hutu). SmokeyShyla (talk) 19:08, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi SmokeyShyla, do you have a reliable source confirming that? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:40, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance, please; I’m not sure what you’re asking. Do you mean does the song refer to Shihi Qutuqu? Or a reference? The lyrics of the song (I can only use the official translation, because Mongolian tongue is not one of my languages.) say Shihi Hutu (their spelling) was chif justice of the Khamag Mongol. The lyrics further say he was a converted Tatar from the steppe, which jibes (in my mind) with his early life and having been taken from his tribe.

I am not trying to be obtuse, I just wanted to add this. I originally looked up Shigi Quhutu because of the song, so I thought it might fit in the article. SmokeyShyla (talk) 13:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the official translation, SmokeyShyla? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:00, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

References