Talk:Shirley Bassey discography/Archive 1

Discography

Can someone please complete the original albums on one list, there seem to be two lists now. Which is pointless. I have tried to do this but cannot seem to add the record label name for the post UA/EMI albums. The second list is mix of original albums and 'best of' albums, which should be listed on an apart list - if at all??? Of course all albums such as 'Thank You For The Years' which is also a best of BUT contains new recordings should be listed. Plus the 25th Anniversary album and The Singles album that were landmark albums in Shirley's career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.100.26.222 (talk) 07:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I did not write the original entry, but having recently added her BPI certifications I can see how much work goes into it. Here's what you can do if you are having trouble with the editing syntax (like creating another table, or a new column to an existing table, or just adding info to a column). On the discography page, click edit this page on the desired section like you would normally do. Then copy and paste the entire thing to the sandbox and experiment away. When in the edit mode, you can see the syntax that was used to create things--then just duplicate what you see. In the sandbox I prefer to preview rather than save for this purpose. I had several false starts and the columns would look all crazy. But that is what the sandbox is for. Of course there are articles about editing as well. (One hint about adding a new record label name in an existing column: see if the prior record label has some syntax that creates a row span, like rowspan=23 for example. You need to manipulate that number, and if you are, I suspect you aren't doing it in the right place. Go to where you see the name of the prior record label.) I see that "Applause" now appears in the BPI column, I'll see if I can fix that, (also it appears to be 1982 release, not 1980 see Applause Records), then take a look at what I did. I agree that the discography needs additional work, with all due respect to the others who did the great bulk of the job. For one thing, the US chart positions are unsourced. And I agree with you that it is odd to have original albums listed in two different tables! Looking at various discographies on wiki, there are several ways to do it. Some list studio albums, live albums, and compilation albums on separate tables. Some go in chronological order by label. Some have tables. Some don't. And so on. Compare Dionne Warwick to Barbra Streisand to Frank Sinatra to Neil Diamond to Pink Floyd and not only do I question whether there needs to be separate UK and US sections for Bassey (If All By Myself was on an American label, then??), but I must say her discography is simply not as well done as them (again with respect to the work that has been done so far.) (As to your question about greatest hits and other compilations, you can see how that is handled on them as well). Shirley deserves something every bit as good as the aforementioned artists.--Nyctc7 (talk) 22:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I think 80.100.26.222 has a good point, that, at the least, original release albums should be moved to the first list. Another complication on this discography is the headings states "UK Discography" and "US Discography." From the other discographies I've seen here, they do not do it that way, instead showing the various chart positions for an album in one entry. Take, for example, Pink Floyd (link above). They are a British band, but do not have a "UK discography" and a "US discography" section. (Also note all the links to international charts in the reference section!) But I will move some original releases to the first list, and await feedback. One more comment, sometimes I find one of the more difficult tasks is determing the original record label.--Nyctc7 (talk) 06:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes it needs sorting out. Also, All By Myself was originally released as Love Songs - they are the same album (I think maybe ABM was the US title?)--Tuzapicabit (talk) 09:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I find determing the original record label to be quite confusing at times. ABM is a case in point. On Chartstats.com it is listed as Love Songs, entering the charts in July of 1982, with correct cover art, but showing the K-tel label, which is almost certainly not the original label. (But we can't go by cover art on this site, there is another error on Shirley's page.) Applause Records states they released ABM in January of 1982, six months prior. And on the old Songs Of Shirley Bassey Website it has an entry for ABM, but not Love Songs. On the 80s overview page, it states ABM, with Love Songs as an "also released as." I think ABM should stay unless a record label that issued it before Applause, as "Love Songs," can be found. --Nyctc7 (talk) 17:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I have added a note to ABM so that anyone referencing the chart position of 48 on chartstats.com doesn't get confused. While perhaps not 100% satisfactory, it is clearer than before, because the UK Discography had listed ABM and Love Songs as separate entries, as if they were two different albums. I am also finding that one can't always rely on the date something entered the charts as a firm indiactor of the year of release; for example, "The Magic Is You" is most definitely a 1978 album, yet on chartstats.com it shows that it made its first appearence on the charts in May of 1979.--Nyctc7 (talk) 20:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure The Magic is You is 1978? The 25th Anniversary album was released late in 1978, I find it unlikely there would be another album out so soon. I seem to remember the lead single (This is My Life) being released in 1979.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 09:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Without reference books at my fingertips, and only using the internet, I want to be sure I am on firm ground when altering something that has been apparently sourced from a print edition reference book, or adding something that is not already in the discography, such as was the case with the record labels for her post-United Artists albums. (To source her US chart positions is going to take a trip to the library, though.) I have used a couple of methods for trying to determine the original label and year of release. Of course there is the Songs Of Shirley Bassey Website, which shows it as 1978, as well states 1978 on the "This Is My Life" page http://home.arcor.de/bassey/song/sng68033.html, and does mention a different 1979 single. But after the experience with the Big Spender album (of which you are aware) I don't always want to go by that alone. (Another useful page on that site is his personal collection. On the main page click on "no more update to this site," then where he mentions he is selling his collection.) Another resource is http://www.discogs.com/artist/Shirley+Bassey. They do not list a 1971 Big Spender, but a 1973 one, but it and Roman's (the guy on SOSB) says "Germany" so maybe that's it. (He didn't specify Germany on the And We Were Lovers page, but he did on the one in his personal collection. I would still like to track down the 1971 album that is on chartstats, even if only to see the cover art. It is driving me a little crazy that I can find nothing for a 1971 Big Spender, nothing for sale, nothing at all other than the entry on chartstats, and two fleeting mentions, see below. I do see one from 1967 on the Sunset label, and from the cover art it also appears to be a re-issue of And We Were Lovers, but I don't see how that can be it!)...Discogs shows 1978 for the The Magic Is You. But perhaps no website is fool-proof, and I'm not going to say that SOSB or Discogs is absolutely definitive. Wanting another source, I go to eBay and look at the records for sale (being in the US, I click on worldwide, or if necessary, go to UK eBay.) Looking at all the albums for sale, it seems that it is indeed 1978, I especially look for an album that in its description says it is an original release, like this The Magic Is You. But all the others say 1978 as well, and they can't all be wrong. However this site says 1979, scroll down to the discography at the bottom, http://www.nme.com/artists/shirley-bassey. That site is also almost the only one I can find that mentions a 1971 Big Spender (additionally, chartstats has a link to MusicBrainz, which has an entry but sparse info). But I think the weight of the evidence is that The Magic Is You is 1978. Another site besides discogs with lots of Shirley Bassey records for sale is here, http://www.musicstack.com/, but one has to be careful because of all the reissues and compilations, especially compilations which have as their title the name of an original album, but are in fact something completely different. Yet another resource is http://bassified.com/, although it is CDs only, it is very good. And then there is just a good old fashioned Google search for the album in question.--Nyctc7 (talk) 18:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Well now I'm confused. I've looked up the 1967 version of Big Spender and indeed this is the album I know of - and assumed it was 1971. A re-release possibly given her recent success? Discogs says The Magic is You is 1978 but the This is My life single is 1979. I think many sites will list the album as 1978 as that is the copyright date written on the album (not necessarily the release date). The songs of.. has a review dated 27 Jan 1979 for the album, which presumably would be the time of release, but that's in the US. That would still leave the question though of how come it took so long to reach the charts? If an album is going to chart it will do within a few weeks of it's release - not 6 months later. Someone who really knows Bassey's career - and there must be someone - would surely have an exact release date (or at least a month and year), so I give in!

There are many versions of This Is My Life...a review in January 1979 could refer to an album released in late 1978? I'm far from an expert on records (I'm really just a Shirley Bassey fan), but it has been my experience that for original albums, the copyright year and release year are one and the same. But I don't know what to say, considering your point about entering the charts! It makes no sense to me either that an album would be released and not enter the charts until five months later, unless for example it was released in the USA first. Though that seems counterintuitive for British artist Shirley, it is possible, as a January review in the US, and not entering the UK charts until May, suggests that that is the case. As to Big Spender, take a look at the cover art for the "1967" Big Spender http://www.musicstack.com/item.cgi?item=218490958 (to confirm we are talking about the same thing)--I must say that the photo of Shirley looks like her around 1970 or 1971, NOT 1967. Furthermore, 1967 is the release date of the original album, And We Were Lovers, and I see no indication that it was simultaneously released as Big Spender, so I am starting to wonder about your point about copyright date versus release date, at least with respect to re-issues. Could 1967 refer to the copyright date in this instance? I mean that definitely does not look like Shirley from 1967, her hair and makeup are wrong for 1967, and her overall look...compare that picture to the original 1967 album And We Were Lovers http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1035003 So you can see that even though "Big Spender" is referred to as 1967, IT CANNOT have been released in that year because that is NOT a picture of Shirley from 1967. It is a picture of her consistent with 1971. (I have the CD of her 1971 album Something Else, the year Big Spender charted, and on the inside there she is with that hairstyle--or wig--and makeup, she looks very similar.) So I feel comfortble saying that it CANNOT be a released in 1967 album, but must refer instead to the copyright date of the original album. So, in fact, I think we have discovered the 1971 Big Spender album! As to The Magic Is You, I really should consult some kind of reference book. Virtually everyone refers to The Magic Is You as 1978. So for now I will leave it as 1978, though one thing that makes me uneasy is the 1979 I mention below in the UA-EMI discussion. That CD collection refers to a song from the Magic Is You as 1979. But I am very glad to have had this discussion, as it is another caveat to be careful when looking at records for sale to be cautious about the dates that are used. Note: On the discography, I did not enter the dates for the albums, only changing The Magic Is You to 1978 (for the above stated reasons), plus the two or three albums I added like Live In Japan and La Vita.--Nyctc7 (talk) 01:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Nyctc7 - You have done a great job on putting this right!!! We are getting there. I do feel that all albums with ORIGINAL material should be listed together. (Studio and Live) and that there should be no UK and US discography. Different name and or tracks listings etc. can be indicated where possible. I feel also that 'La Vita' and the 2 live albums released in japam should also be include in the album discography.80.100.26.222 (talk) 09:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!, and agreed. But I think her US chart positions need to be sourced before doing any combining, to confirm those numbers, which don't always match up with what is on allmusic.com, and I want to find a reference that is more complete and perhaps more authoritative than allmusic. If you scroll down to 'references' on the wiki discography you will see no references for those US chart positions, unless that British book shown also includes them (I don't know about that, but again, I am bothered they don't in all cases match allmusic). And I thought about putting La Vita and the Japanese albums in the first list, as they are original albums, but as long as the heading is 'UK Discography' I think they should stay in 'other albums,' even though that list also comes under the heading 'UK Discography.' This point started to bother me for the album 'All By Myself' which was apparently first issued on an American label, Applause. This album cannot be moved to US Discography because the chart position shown is a UK one. Maybe it should be moved to 'other albums' as well. For examples of a discography with separate UK/US, these have been pointed out to me: Dave Clark 5 and Gerry and the Pacemakers. But so far I think that Shirley's can be combined into one, not having the same kind of issues as those two bands--I think--but having not attempted it yet (for the reasons mentioned above), I can't be sure. Note: it would be helpful if you signed your comments by typing four tildes (4 x ~), it would help to show that we are trying to build a consensus.--Nyctc7 (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

As some other discographies here use allmusic as a source, went ahead and used it for US chart positions, leaving alone the one or two US numbers that already existed here, but are not on allmusic.--Nyctc7 (talk) 16:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you on a possible seperate list for US releases and chart information. BUT do feel that the album discography should be that - NOT a UK album discography. So maybe we could just call it that ALBUM DISCOGRAPHY and a seperate discography could be made for the 'Best of', 'collections' and 're-issues'. I feel that the album list should include ALL albums that include original material. Do it this way would also resolve the problem of 'ABM - aka Love Songs' as the album discography should list only the ORIGINAL release. 80.100.26.222 (talk) 09:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed; also I am for eventually combining the US and UK into one, if possible (and I think it is). However, at this point just renaming 'UK discography' 'Album Discography' presents a couple of problems. When you do that, look at the table of contents. Singles and Eps are listed under 'Album Discography' and that is no good. If you create a heading 'Album discography' (or just 'Albums') with subheadings you think work, such as 'Orignal albums' or 'Original LPs' (which I don't know about, since her later stuff was only on CDs, but it still may be a proper heading), or 'Studio albums', 'Live albums', 'Compilation', (or just stick with 'Original' and 'Other'), then turn 'Singles' and 'EPs' from sub-headings to headings, that would still not be satisfactory because further down the page there are more albums and singles under 'US Discography.' If you create a subheading in 'Album discography' called 'US chart positions' and cut and paste what's below there, then we start getting into whether it looks right and is confusing (for one thing you'd have to do that with the singles as well) because other discographies from what I've seen don't do it that way. Better to wait on deleteing UK until the discography of UK and US are combined. But here is an idea: For the US chart positions, take the Billboard Chart positions here http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:fifixqw5ld6e~T50 and use them, and where the discography has a number that disagrees, use allmusic. Where the discography has a number not mentioned on allmusic, just leave it alone for now. That way the discographies could possibly be combined. It would be a major undertaking, as it would have to be done all at once, the albums and singles, so it looks right. Let me ponder this, I think I will attempt it, but it could take days...And anybody, myself included, would have to do it with the foreknowledge that their work could be reverted or re-edited. As to "'ABM - aka Love Songs' the album discography should list only the ORIGINAL release": In order to reference the chart position, both names need to be mentioned, as it charted as 'Love Songs' not 'All By Myself', so anyone looking at the UK chart and seeing 'Love Songs' then coming here would wonder why they don't see it. If 'Love Songs' had been a re-release, then it would be a different story, but it wasn't. Lastly, I am delighted that someone else is taking an interest in the Shirley Bassey Discography! Do not be discouraged, remember this is not an easy task! And again I recommend the sandbox for experimentation.--Nyctc7 (talk) 17:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Discography Part II

The other 'Discography' section on this page was getting unwieldy.

I have combined the UK and US discographies into one. There are some British bands like the Dave Clark 5 and Gerry and The Pacemakers that require separate UK and US discographies, but I don't think that Shirley has the same kind of issues that require a separate UK and US discography.

My first thought is that it would look better if the null indicators (the dash that indicates no chart position) were a little smaller and centered.

This singles discography is missing the singles she released in Italy.

If anyone has any comments or concerns, this is the place to address them!--Nyctc7 (talk) 20:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

added Italian singles, though there may be more out there--Nyctc7 (talk) 07:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone figure out why the first link to the Something album in the introduction goes to the Beatles single, while the second (in the Original LPs list) goes to the correct Something? They are typed identical!--Nyctc7 (talk) 20:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

With only 4 singles charting in the US Dance or US R&B charts, it makes for a cleaner look to eliminate those columns, instead including that information in small text with the song title.--Nyctc7 (talk)

It's looking much better! I have changed the heading to Original Albums - lp is still a term used for mainly vinyl so adds confusion to the list. Please take a look at the discography of Grace Jones. I helped on this one, we took a while to sort out her discography as it is also very complex but I feel that it works well. It would be wonderful to get a page for each of Shirley's albums as we did for Grace. 77.161.224.249 (talk) 16:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I really did struggle with what to name this list. You are right about LPs and CDs. Perhaps break it down into the more typically used "Studio Albums" and "Live Albums"? Or rename "Original Albums" "Studio and Live Albums"? Or just leave it the way it is,"Original Albums"?--Nyctc7 (talk) 17:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I have added more information on a couple of albums, but need to 'Cite'? How does one do this - what do they mean? I want to add more information on all the albums and include the sleeves - I have GOOD scanned copies - better than the ones on Wikki now. How can I add these? Dutchdean (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

First, Regret to say that in your new entry you confused the albums Shirley and Shirley Bassey. Your new entry for the Shirley Bassey Album contained the track list for Shirley. See http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:fifixqw5ld6e~T2. You need do nothing right now, I'll change the name to Shirley, and fix other info accordingly, and create a page for Shirley Bassey. And it is not jazz, according to allmusic.com.

Second, If this is your first time writing an article, and you haven't done a lot of editing here, it is suggested that you take a look at the help section (listed on the left of this webpage) about writing articles, which will contain links to the information you are asking about, like citing references. Citing means providing a source for what you are saying, for example, if you say that an album hit #10 in the charts, you can provide a citation to the appropriate page of allmusic.com (US) and chartstats.com (UK) to prove what you are saying. This is not the same as just typing the name of the website, you would have to contain it in within the appropriate tags. You can use the Wikipedia:Sandbox to experiment, though there really is nothing wrong with your article, it looks fine, you did a good job except for confusing the two albums and listing it as jazz, plus another sentence or two about the album would be nice. You also did a good job providing links for the songs.(Another hint: when in edit mode on another article, see what the syntax looks like.)

Third, on the help pages you will read about how to upload images, and "fair use," which is a fancy way of saying when it is ok to use copyrighted material. Album covers in conjunction with an article are ok, but not if they are high resolution, so don't worry about hi-rez images, use what's on allmusic.com. Also See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums.

Finally, don't be discouraged, I've made mistakes, for example creating a page Burn My Candle (At Both Ends), when the capitalization standard here would be to make "At" "at", then learning how to fix that.

Good luck with the Shirley Bassey articles!--Nyctc7 (talk) 22:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, sorry, sorry (stupid of me!!) I had taken the wrong CD off the shelf!! I have now added more detail and will (carefully!!) add more albums.. I have been thinking about the singles discography, it might be nice to do the same as The Beatles singles discography. There the B-sides are also listed and the info on which album the single appeared on (Or not) and chart positions in UK etc. What do you think? Dutchdean (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

If this is a project that you would like to undertake...the thing about wikipedia is that there is no one to stop you, unless you break one of the rules or guidelines. And of course try to build a consensus, which is what you are doing right now, that is good! But at this point I see that you are still having a little trouble manipulating columns and citing references, and before undertaking a big project, it might be a good idea to get a little experience with the syntax. You can create a sandbox on your user page to carry out experiments. It is important to get even little things right, like the capitalization convention for albums and songs, which I'm sure you've seen on the Project Albums page. Before undertaking such a project, you might want to take a look at a few other discographies here (links in Discography Part I). The Beatles pages have many experts, here I'm afraid not as many, it's good to have others double-check one's work for accuracy and neatness. And speaking of accuracy, remember that it is important to provide references. Do not depend on others to come along later and do that for you. Instead of rushing to make an entry for every album, take your time to get one right, with an image of the cover art (if possible), a few pertinent sentences, and at least one reference. I like the fact that you are including the songwriters for each song, good work. And if you like, do visit my talk page, if you have any questions that are about technical matters, instead of the discography itself.--Nyctc7 (talk) 20:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

There is an issue with 'Stops The Shows' and the US album 'Shirley Bessey Belts The Best' - the albums were NOT the same as the track listing differs. I think it would better to only use this title and info on the apart article on the album and not on the discography page. This is the same as 'Let's Face The Music' and 'Shirley Bassey Sings The Hit Song From "Oliver!" ' with this album I have indicated the US release on the album article.Dutchdean (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

It is true that the US version Shirley Bassey Belts The Best! does not contain "The Lady Is A Tramp", but starts side A instead with "Goldfinger." However, it seems that this album is widely considered to be an "also released as" to Stops The Shows. I think your changing it on the discography from "also released as" to "issued in the US as" is fine. But deleting that infromation would present a problem in terms of the chart positions. It charted in the US #85, not the UK, so if you deleted that info from the discography, someone who knows that Shirley Bassey Belts the Best hit #85 in the US would wonder why they don't see it. And listing them as two separate albums would not really be satisfactory as they do seem to be considered the same release, with the difference noted above--for example, in the liner notes for the BGO At The Pigalle/Talk of the Town, the author writes "...the May 1965 release Shirley Stops The Shows (or Shirley Bassey Belts the Best!, to give the album its American title)..."--Nyctc7 (talk) 20:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Lets' Face the Music was reissued in 1971 as What Now My Love. Oliver may be different enough to be considered a compilation.--Nyctc7 (talk) 23:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I have added to the discography that At the Pigalle was issued in the US as In Person. (Not the small words "In Person" you see in the lower right of the British release, the US cover art is different) Even though it didn't chart in the US, I still think that this info is helpful, as the US is the biggest overall market--Nyctc7 (talk) 03:02, 24 September 2009 (UTC)