Talk:Shuchō

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The speedy deletion tag was added just as the article was created, before I was even given much opportunity to add to it. Admittedly, I do not have a hell of a lot to be said about this period; still, it is one of a series in the nengō (imperial eras) of Japanese history, and is essential for completion of that series. I shall endeavor to add what I can to shore up the article's content. LordAmeth 18:25, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further to what LordAmeth has already explained: There is an error in Japanese era names, which has been copied directly from the Japanese Wikipedia. Resolving that problem needs to be addressed simultaneously with the creation of this new article. Plausibly, Gukanshō, a 13th century text, will provide a way forward ... but in the meantime, the "fast delete" can be removed without further delay. I'm more than willing to take responsibility for this topic. Ooperhoofd 18:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Time span[edit]

The time span of this era is incorrect. Nearly all sources list it as a single year in duration: 686. After 686, the next nengō is Taihō beginning in 701.

References:

  • Hioki, Eigō (2007). Dai Ikkan: -1000. Shin Kokushi Dainenhyō (10 volumnes). Kokusho Kankōkai. ISBN 978-4-336-04826-4. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  • Sakamoto, Tarō (1965). Nihon Shoki. Iwanami Nihon Koten Bungaku Jiten. Iwanami Shoten. pp. 474, 480 etc. ISBN 4000600680. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  • Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten Henshū Iinkai (1986). Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten. Iwanami Shoten. ISBN 4-00-080067-1. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  • Nihon Kokugo Daijiten Dai Nihan Henshū Iinkai (2000–2002). Nihon Kokugo Daijiten (15 volumes). Shōgakkan. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)CS1 maint: date format (link)

Bendono 15:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I saw that in the Japanese Wikipedia article, and in a number of other sources besides; the problem is that if Shucho only lasted one year, and Taiho did not begin until 701, what was the imperial era name (the nengo) for the intervening 15 years? Please see the discussion on Talk:Japanese era name, as User:Ooperhoofd is currently in the process of trying to reconcile the differing sources on the chronology. LordAmeth 15:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Simple: there was no nengō. The nengō article already deals with this:

Although the regular practice of proclaiming successive nengō was interrupted in the late seventh century, it was re-adopted in 701 during the reign of Emperor Mommu (697-707). Since that Taihō era (701-704), era names have been used continuously up through the present day.

It's late here, so I'll try to look at the discussion sometime tomorrow. Bendono 15:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All right, then. Simple enough. LordAmeth 15:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shuchō succession box[edit]

The succession box at the bottom of this page links to nengō which do not, at this time, have any counterpart in other Wikipedias. These become links to non-congruent pages; but in due course, there will be further edits.

fr:Utilisateur:Sixsous from the French Wikipedia introduced me to an online nengō conversion website which is maintained as part of the Japanese studies program at the German University of Tübingen at http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/geschichte-japans/nengo_calc.htm ...
This "Nengōcalc" software proposes plausible subdivisions within the otherwise undifferentiated 38-year time-span of Hakuchi:
  • 650 白雉 Hakuchi (era) ... Duration not consistent with Japanese Wikipedia; and
alternate era/period chronology is proposed for use + added 29 Jul 07, Tübingen/Tsuchihashi source
alternate era chronology is proposed for use + added 29 Jul 07, Tübingen/Tsuchihashi source
Bibliographic foundation for the Nengo_calc software:
  • Tsuchihashi, Paul Yachita. (1952). Japanese Chronological Tables from 601 to 1872 (邦暦西暦対照表). Tokyo: Sophia University Press.
  • Reinhard Zöllner, Reinhard. (2003). Japanische Zeitrechnung. München: Iudicium Verlag.

This now becomes a solicitation for further comments? suggestions? Ooperhoofd 23:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

pre-Taihō era names[edit]

There is an on-going discussion about re-visiting the largely settled issues arising from the subject of pre-Taihō era names. For more information, see Talk:Japanese era name. Ooperhoofd 15:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • My intention here in Talk:Shuchō is to help move things along by ensuring that further comments or questions are better informed by plausibly useful citations:
  • Varley's 1980 translation of Jinnō Shōtōki:
    • p. 138/"Many Chinese practices were adopted during Mommu's reign, from styles of palace construction to the colors of robes for bbth civil and military officials (bunbukan). Moreover, beginning in Mommu's fifth year, 701, the Chinese custom of era names was inaugurated. Thus, 701 became known as the first year of Taihō. Before this there had been the Taika and Hakuchi eras of Emperor Kōtaku, the Hakuhō era of Temperor Tenji, and the Shajaku and Shuchō eras of Emperor Temmu.Ø But it was not until Taihō that the custom was adopted permanently. It is therefore proper to regard Taihō as marking the true beginning of era names."
      • ØThe era names Hakuhō and Shujaku do not appear in Nihon Shoki. For a discussion of their listing in other sources, see Hirata Toshiharu, "Jinnō Shōtōki kōshō shichi-ron," in Hiraizumi Kiyoshi, ed., Kitabatake Chikafusa-Kō no Kenkyū, pp. 228-232.
    • p. 139/The god of Kasuga, the tutelary deity (uji no kami) of the Fujiwara, also provided special protection for the Hossō sect. (The kami of Kasuga was originally manifested in the for m of the deity Ame-no-Koyane; its shrine, first built at Hiraoka, Kawachi Province, was moved to Kasuga during the Jinga-Keiun era, 767-769--that is, after [Fujiwara-no] Fubito's time ...." [emphasis added]
  • Brown and Ishida's 1979 translation of Gukanshō:
    • p. 32/"It was during Mommu's reign (697-707) that era names were first used. Beginning with the Taihō era (701-704), era names have been used until the present day."ф
      • ф In his Imperial chronology, Jien says that era names were first instituted in the reign of Kōtoku (645-655), and he even provides details about era names after the reign of Temmu (671-686). However his statement here is rather close to the position taken by modern scholars.
    • p. 267/"Era names were instituted during this reign. The Taika era was five years long [645-649] and the Hakuchi five [650-654]."
    • p. 269/"These era names fell in the Temmu reign: (1) Suzaku, which was one year long [672]. (It began in mizunoe-saru.) (2) Hakuhō, which was 13 years long [673-686]. (It began in Mizunoe-saru, the year Suzaku began. Did both begin in the same year?) And (3) Suchō, which was eight years long [686-694]. (One year of this era fell within the Temmu reign.)"
    • p. 270/"The eras that fell in this reign [Jitō-tennō] were (1) the remaining seven years of Shuchō; and (2) Taika, which was four years long [695-698]. (The first year of this era was kinoto-hitsuji [695].)"
    • p. 271/"One year of the Taika era fell in this reign [Mommu-tennō]. The following three years had no era name. The Taihō era (which was instituted on the 21st day of the 3rd month of kanoto-ushi [701]) was three years long [701-704]. After this there was no break in the continuity of era names." [emphasis added]
  • Ponsonby-Fane, in Kyoto: the Old Capital of Japan, 794-1869, mentions a remotely relevant 18th century era anomoly:
    • p. 321/Hōreki 1 (宝暦元年; October 27, 1751): The new era of Hōreki (meaning "Valuable Calendar" or "Valuable Almanac") was said to have been created to mark the death of the retired Emperor Sakuramachi and the death of the former Shogun Tokugawa Yoshimune.
The previous era could be said to have ended and the new era is understood to have commenced in Kan'en 4, on the 27th day of the 10th month; however, this nengō was promulgated retroactively. The Keikō Kimon records that the calendar was amended by [Momozono-tennō's] Imperial command, and the era was re-named Hōreki on December 2, 1754, which then would have become 19th day of the 10th month of the 4th year of Hōreki. [emphasis added]

This now becomes a solicitation for further comments? suggestions? Ooperhoofd 23:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious dates[edit]

According to NengoCalc, the first day of the first month of the first year of Shuchō (朱鳥一年一月一日) was Tuesday, January 30, 686. In other words, the following dates are inconsistent with NengoCalc because they pre-date January 30th:

  • Shuchō 1 (January 10, 686): Earthquake.<:ref name="h193">Hioki, Eigō. (2007). Dai Ikkan: -1000, Vol. 1 (Shin Kokushi Dainenhyō), p. 193.</ref>
  • Shuchō 1 (January 14, 686): Imperial palace at Naniwa burned.<:ref name="h193"/>
  • Shuchō 1 (June 10, 686) Sickness of Emperor Temmu is foretold. Blamed on curse of Kusanagi sword and hence returned to Atsuta Shrine in Owari Province.<:ref name="h194">Hioki, p. 194</ref>
  • Shuchō 1 (July 20, 686): The nengō (era name) changed to Shuchō.<:ref name="h194"/>/

This small problem can be resolved in due course. --Tenmei (talk) 03:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added those and have just reviewed the reference. January 30, 686 is the correct date for the start of this era. However, the other dates should not be interpreted as the Julian calendar. Also, they belong to he previous nengō. Thus, the first one should be interpreted as "first month, tenth day of Tenmu (15)" and the final one would be "seventh month, twentieth day of Tenmu (15)". These are in error due to confusion of being the same Julian year 686. Sorry for the error; I will replace them with other data. Bendono (talk) 04:15, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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