Talk:Silas Simmons

Age issue and the bandwagon effect

Silas Simmons was an unknown quantity until being 'discovered' in 2005. For those who don't follow 'supercentenarians' closely, that's right...2005. It took a year for the major media to pick up this story.

In regards to Silas's age claim: I've been informed by direct sources that the 'verification' for Sila's age came from his WWI draft registration (written in 1917). Please note that this falls outside the rules for 'proof of birth' as Silas would have been 21/22 at the time. The rules were established before this case came to the media attention. With no birth certificate, so far the earliest document, the 1900 census, lists Silas as 2 years old, born Nov 1897. Thus, there is no proof of birth but there is a document that casts doubt on the age claimed. All the feel-goodism and bandwagon mentality won't change the facts. Saying 'the records must be there' when you don't really know, is to engage in an appeal to emotion (i.e. fallacious argument). If, on the other hand, someone has some facts to prove Silas's age, bear in mind that I am the Senior Consultant for Gerontology for Guinness World Records, and we could include him in the 2008 edition, possibly. As I mentioned, if 'only 108' Silas would still be the recordholder. Thus, what is not in dispute is that he is the oldest person to have played professional baseball. What is in dispute is whether Silas was born in 1895 or 1897.

And in regards to draft records: please check out Moses Hardy. Moses's draft record lists him as born June 5 1894, but the 1900 census lists him as born Jan 1894; the 1910 census as age '17,' the 1920 census as age '29,' the 1930 census as age '37.' Moses's family claims he was born Jan 6 1893. If that's true, then Moses's draft record is wrong. Just as the census could be wrong, so the draft record could also be wrong.

Now, I did state that Silas was 'probably' 110. However, it has not been proven that he is 110 according to the standards currently in force for Guinness World Records, the Gerontology Research Group, the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research, the US Social Security Administration (Kestenbaum Study), etc.

Finally, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. If/when Silas makes it to Oct 14, then it will be time for him to be '111'.

Sincerely, Robert Young → R Young {^yakł_talk} 12:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

People, this article isn't about 'Silas Simmons' my local neighbor, blah blah blah. There are 6.3 billion people on this Earth and if that's what this article is about, then it is not notable. Silas is notable in the context of his age and his Negro-league history. Please try to keep it in perspective.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 18:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

1900 census

• Janes Simmons 40
• Amy Simmons 17
• Eugene Gooseberry 30
• Selas Simmons 2
• Johnny Simmons 2

Silas's mother's age and circular arguments

In regards to the following comments:

and this is obviously such as case since the age for Silas's mother would make her 13 years old when she had Silas. A neighbor could easily answer the information if the resident was not home. Silas' mother, Amy, is listed as born 1882, which suggests she gave birth at 15 (if in 1897) or age 13 (if 1895). Silas Simmons himself confirmed this was his date of birth as well as his family.

1. This is NOT 'obviously the case.' Studies of age claims show a marked number of age-inflated cases. Just because person X says "I'm 119" doesn't mean they are 119. The point of documented proof is to establish a standard that applies to everyone. Based on the standards of age verification, Sila's claim to 111 does not meet the standard. There is no birth certificate, and the earliest record lists him as born 'Nov 1897.'

2. The age of Silas's mother argues for 1897, given that it is more likely for Silas to be born when she was 15 than at 13. Also, how do we know that '1882' is incorrect? Given the ages of the granparents, the gap is not great, there, either.

3. Habib Miyan says he's 137, should we believe everyone just because they said so?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 18:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

1915 marriage certificate

Greetings, it's a positive that people are actually searching for more evidence. Hopefully, like a court case, people will learn a little more than simply saying 'it must be true.' In the case of the marriage certificate, however, I'm not convinced that it says '1893.' The marriage record clearly is 1893, I have been reading old handwriting for many years. Please take a closer look at the scan provided. It could say '1897' or even '1892.' Does someone have a higher-resolution image? Yes I have provided a 600dpi closeup for your viewing. What made people interpret this as a '3'? - Because the document is clearly 1893. Is there something on the document that says, for example, that he got married at '21 years of age' or '22 years of age' or something to that effect? - No the document states the dates of birth of the bride and groom → R Young {^yakł_talk} 00:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. You can't tell that it says '1893' from the low-resolution image. This still leaves two problems, however:

1. We now have three conflicting documents listing 1893, 1895, and 1897. We can guess that 1895 is the most likely, although it is not certain 'beyond a reasonable doubt.'

2. If we go by the '20-year-rule,' 1917-1895=22 and 1915-1893=22, so neither is considered 'proof of birth.' Using the SSA study definition, only the 1900 census would count.

There may be remaining documents to discover, such as a school record, that could help prove 1895 or even 1893.

The bottom line: Silas's status as longest-lived 'professional' baseball player is secure, although his exact age is within a margin of 4 years.

Sincerely, Robert Young → R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Howe

Removal of doubt about age

The discussions above not withstanding, no authoritative sources have expressed doubt about Simmons' age, so I have removed any speculation to the contrary from the article. It is clear from other information on the 1900 Census that the transcription of Simmons' birth year was in error: His grandmother (Jane) is listed as only having one child (daughter Amy), yet she has two grandsons born 4 months apart? The evidence also suggests that, yes, Silas's mother was 13 years old when she had him, and that his father was Eugene Gooseberry, then 25. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 03:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I haven't found anything to suggest otherwise, but at the same time there's no level of verification on par with the people listed in Category:Supercentenarians. We're in an interesting middle ground here, I asked for input at WikiProject Longevity. Although I have to ask, on what basis are you so definite? None of the sources really address the issue of verifying his age at all, and with age-related claims that can lead to bad things; just recently the age of Lucy Hannah ended up being wildly off from what was long accepted. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure which claim of mine you are questioning, so I'll speak broadly: My primary motivation for removing the doubt was because it appeared to be WP:OR, yet its claim was outweighing much of the discussion. I was also concerned that it may be an indicator of WP:BIAS, given the nature of the topic. As far as sourcing is concerned, a birthdate of October 14, 1895, has been consistently claimed since 1917 at the latest, when Simmons was 21 and already married: it appeared on his WWI draft card (1917), his WWII draft card (1942), and his Social Security claim (1966). The only source I was able to access that had a different date (the 1900 census) was internally inconsistent to the point of impossibility. There has been discussion about his marriage license indicating a third date, but I have been unable to independently verify that. Additionally, all discussions about longevity here (including yours) seem to rely on the certification of Guinness World Records; but the claims being made here are in no way related to Guinness, who have likely not even looked into the matter. That being said, the discussion about Lucy Hannah indicates much more inconsistency in records than is being presented here in the case of Silas Simmons, so I am not concerned about there being a parallel. For those reasons, and others, I am confident in the claims I have made here. If additional records come to light in the future, then by all means we can re-evaluate; in the meantime, though, I don't think the burden of proof of doubt has been realized. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 22:36, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you in spirit, @The Blade of the Northern Lights, that this case is far from validated with any certainty and could very well prove someday to be a Lucy Hannah jr. However, the age section in this article was 14-year-old WP:OR by Robert Young, not reliably sourced material. Like Virginia McLaurin, this case is likely exaggerated, only there is no reliable source that cares to publish any findings they have on these cough random individuals. So Wikipedia gets stuck in the awkward position of promoting information that lacks real fact checking. Considering Robert Young recently made it clear the GRG lacks donations, is tired of freeloaders getting their data, and may take all their info private (behind a paywall), I wouldn't get your hopes up this random dead old guy will get validated/debunked soon. Without actual sourcing, we should leave the age dispute out. Newshunter12 (talk) 00:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

That makes sense. My thought is that the article can list the birth and death dates as reported in reliable sources, but have him in the longevity claims category; that way it won't have the OR problems you mention above, but will reflect that his age isn't verified to anything like the level of modern supercentenarians. Obviously the article and/or categories can be adjusted in the case of any future findings. (As an aside, the GRG complaining about freeloading is a bit of pot calling the kettle black, but I do understand their point) The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:45, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I support your idea regarding the category distinction. It's a clever way to handle this problem in the best way that we realistically can. Yes, the GRG's predicament has a humorous side, but it would be a seismic shift to the many longevity lists if we soon can no longer use them as a source. I forget where, but many years ago on one of these lists their was a brief discussion about if Wikipedia was plagiarizing the GRG's data, and despite the utter hypocrisy of it, I do think if they ever tried to get their data removed from this website they have strong grounds to do so. Newshunter12 (talk) 03:25, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@The Blade of the Northern Lights: Out of curiosity, aside from a stamp issued by Guinness, what would constitute a verification "to anything like the level of modern supercentenarians" in your eyes? Simmons appears in the 1900 census, so he was no younger than 106 when he died, and there was no inconsistency in his claimed birthdate from 1917 onward. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 05:02, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

That would work too, but I had something more like this in mind. That's the paper that establishes what went wrong with Lucy Hannah's verification, and confirmed the validation of a few people (e.g. Edna Parker). Given that either way he's the oldest baseball player in history, it's entirely possible that someone would take a deep dive into his life like that (and then actually take the time to publish the results, instead of dumping them here with no peer review). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Age analysis

In order to facilitate validation of Silas Simmons' age, I am assembling the references in a manner akin to this article. Feel free to update the records inline as needed. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 05:39, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Document summary

Based on the marriage license announcement, it seems that Silas J. Simmons was living at 708 S. Chadwick St. in Philadelphia when he married Mary L. Smith, who lived around the corner at 1628 Bainbridge St. After the marriage, she moved in with him and the family lived there for decades. 708 S. Chadwick St. is listed as their address on Silas's WWI and WWII draft cards, as well as the death certificate of their infant daughter, Mary. It is possible that they lived in a rear apartment at that address, or in some other non-straightforward abode, as they are enumerated with another family at 710 S. Chadwick St., and are missing entirely from the 1920 and 1940 censuses. Further supporting this scenario are the 1910 enumeration of the area, which lists multiple instances of 708, and the 1940 enumeration of the area, which does not list 708 at all but distinctly lists certain families as living in the rear of adjacent addresses.

There is extensive documentation supporting the notion that Silas Simmons and Mary Smith married in September 1915. The 1930 census notes that they were both 19 when first married, which aligns with both of their claimed birthdates, despite it not aligning with Silas's age listed in 1930.

Claimed date of birth: October 14, 1895

Date	Type of document	Documented age/date of birth	Record accords with	Ref
	Birth record			Not found
June 12, 1900	U.S. census	2; "Nov. 1897"	November 1897?	[1]
September 1915	Marriage license			[2][3][4]
June 5, 1917	WWI draft card	21; October 14, 1895	October 14, 1895	[5]
January 23, 1920	U.S. census			Missing: [6]
April 12, 1930	U.S. census	32	1897/1898	[7]
		19 at first marriage	October 14, 1895
April 16, 1940	U.S. census			Missing: [8]
April 27, 1942	WWII draft card	46; October 14, 1895	October 14, 1895	[9]
February 16, 1966	Social Security claim	October 14, 1895	October 14, 1895	[10]

Family tree

Family of Silas Simmons

Jane   b. Jan 1860 m. abt 1880 d.   SIMMONS b. d.   Amy SIMMONS b. Oct 1882 d.   Eugene GOOSEBERRY b. Mar 1870 d.   Mary L. SMITH b. 19 Jul 1896 m. Sep 1915 d. abt 1944 47–48 years Silas Joseph SIMMONS b. 14 Oct 1895 d. 29 Oct 2006 111 years, 15 days Rebecca JONES b. abt 1901 m. 1957 d. 20 Aug 1997 95–96 years Johnny SIMMONS b. Feb 1898 d.   C. SIMMONS b. abt 1915 d. bef 1997   Silas Joseph SIMMONS b. 21 Oct 1915 d. 6 Jul 1992 76 years, 8 months, 15 days Clarence James SIMMONS b. 6 Dec 1917 d. 20 Oct 1999 81 years, 10 months, 14 days Theresa L. SIMMONS b. 4 Dec 1918 m. 1939 d. 5 Jul 1997 78 years, 7 months, 1 day Lewis David SIMMONS b. 27 Jun 1920 d. 4 Apr 1989 68 years, 9 months, 8 days Mary SIMMONS b. 9 Dec 1927 d. 23 Apr 1928 4 months, 14 days